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 Post subject: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:20 am 
Sunbeam

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I was listening to EWTN on the radio last week and during Patrick Madrid's call-in show a woman said she can't see how she will be happy in heaven knowing that one of her children was in hell. Madrid's answer was that Catholic belief is that we would be so in one with God that we would rejoice seeing our children in hell knowing they were there because of God's justice and respect for free will. So much for "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

Is that the way Mormons think too? I've never noticed that particular line of thinking among the LDS. I think LDS would say they would grieve to see their child lost from them in heaven. Am I wrong?


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:28 am 
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I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed. The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:47 am 
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Boilermaker wrote:
I was listening to EWTN on the radio last week and during Patrick Madrid's call-in show a woman said she can't see how she will be happy in heaven knowing that one of her children was in hell. Madrid's answer was that Catholic belief is that we would be so in one with God that we would rejoice seeing our children in hell knowing they were there because of God's justice and respect for free will. So much for "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

Is that the way Mormons think too? I've never noticed that particular line of thinking among the LDS. I think LDS would say they would grieve to see their child lost from them in heaven. Am I wrong?


This is not what LDS scriptures teach. Not even close. Salvation comes to all except a very small few and according to early restoration leaders. even those had a shot at redemption eventually.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:48 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed. The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."



Is God perfectly just according to your view?

Would it be just to suffer infinite punishment for finite sins?

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"In my more rebellious days I tried to doubt the existence of the sacred, but the universe kept dancing and life kept writing poetry across my life." ~ David N. Elkins, 1998, Beyond Religion, p. 81


Last edited by mercyngrace on Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 5:53 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Boilermaker wrote:
I was listening to EWTN on the radio last week and during Patrick Madrid's call-in show a woman said she can't see how she will be happy in heaven knowing that one of her children was in hell. Madrid's answer was that Catholic belief is that we would be so in one with God that we would rejoice seeing our children in hell knowing they were there because of God's justice and respect for free will. So much for "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

Is that the way Mormons think too? I've never noticed that particular line of thinking among the LDS. I think LDS would say they would grieve to see their child lost from them in heaven. Am I wrong?


I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed. The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."

Divine senility, that's the ticket.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:22 am 
Sunbeam

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LittleNipper wrote:
Boilermaker wrote:
I was listening to EWTN on the radio last week and during Patrick Madrid's call-in show a woman said she can't see how she will be happy in heaven knowing that one of her children was in hell. Madrid's answer was that Catholic belief is that we would be so in one with God that we would rejoice seeing our children in hell knowing they were there because of God's justice and respect for free will. So much for "Will the Circle Be Unbroken."

Is that the way Mormons think too? I've never noticed that particular line of thinking among the LDS. I think LDS would say they would grieve to see their child lost from them in heaven. Am I wrong?


I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed. The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."


Wouldn't it make more sense to believe that God uses hell as a way to bring people to heaven? Rather than hell simply being retribution it is a place for correction. There are Biblically based Christians who understand it that way. If you google "Christian universalism" you might get the alternative view. Even some of the Church Fathers understood it that way until Augustinian Christianity tossed it. Almost all of Christianity's problems can be traced to Augustine in my view, but I don't have time to go into that here.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:20 am 
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:question: :question: :question:

Quote:
Wouldn't it make more sense to believe that God uses hell as a way to bring people to heaven? Rather than hell simply being retribution it is a place for correction.
That is purgatory. Protestants in general suffer from black-and-white thinking because of the rejection of purgatory

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:22 am 
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If the concept of a just and loving God roasting people in Hell for all eternity for such things as making love to someone, or stealing a loaf of bread, or saying "God damnit!", is too ridiculous to believe, I have to suggest that the concept that God does all this, but makes us forget our former loved ones so we don't know this is going on, doesn't really help.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:50 am 
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Hell is make-believe. It was made up by religion to scare people.

Satan is the adult version of the boogeyman. "If you don't eat all your vegetables, the boogeyman will get you".

"If you don't go to church and pay them money, Satan will get you."

That's scary, and very effective.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:08 am 
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Boilermaker wrote:
Madrid's answer was that Catholic belief is that we would be so in one with God that we would rejoice seeing our children in hell knowing they were there because of God's justice and respect for free will.

Is that the way Mormons think too?

I remember a visiting general authority giving a list of character traits of a person who absolutely could not have the spirit with them and I specifically remember this one:

"If a person is happy when bad things happen to another person, they do not have the spirit of the Lord with them."

So....the proper Mormon answer to your question is "No, Mormons do not think that way".

But....the actual answer is that most of them seem to enjoy holding that threat over us heathens who have left the church. They love to remind us that we will not be able to be in the CK with our families, etc., and will suffer greatly because of our sinful choices.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:09 am 
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mercyngrace wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed. The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."



Is God perfectly just according to your view?

Would it be just to suffer infinite punishment for finite sins?


Thanks Mercyngrace. I always feel a little bit better about a lot of things after reading one of your posts.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:41 am 
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Blixa wrote:
mercyngrace wrote:

Is God perfectly just according to your view?

Would it be just to suffer infinite punishment for finite sins?


Thanks Mercyngrace. I always feel a little bit better about a lot of things after reading one of your posts.


While I always enjoy MG's posts it seems to me that the Mormon God also condemns men to an infinite judgement for a finite life. Frankly I don't understand the concept of an omnipotent God punishing mortal beings or allowing them to suffer.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:03 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
While I always enjoy MG's posts it seems to me that the Mormon God also condemns men to an infinite judgement for a finite life. Frankly I don't understand the concept of an omnipotent God punishing mortal beings or allowing them to suffer.


Fence Sitter,

I think that is a popular understanding of the Mormon God but it isn't necessarily supported by scripture or quotes by authorities of the church.

Take for example D&C 132:19

And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

So according the this, exaltation isn't limited to those raised in the first resurrection but applies to all who have been sealed regardless of when they are resurrected. You have to be a sons of perdition to lose this promise. (Now ask yourself, what are LDS doing in those temples? Yep. Trying to seal EVERYONE.)

According the various church leaders, this process will take some time, we still have to become individuals capable of living so as to experience a fullness of joy but to say that God deals out infinite punishment for finite sins is not consistent with D&C 76 which indicates hell will empty after the final (telestial) inhabitants are resurrected and D&C 19 which makes plain that "eternal" hell is not a reference to quantity of time but quality of suffering. Alma and Jonah, for example, were in the depths of hell for a whopping THREE DAYS. Hardly infinite and yet perfectly effective. Their hearts were changed.

The universalism which drove some early LDS to apostasy, is actually what keeps me in the pew. And the idea that salvation and exaltation are the very same is also corroborated in scripture as well as by LDS authorities like Joseph Smith and Brice R. McConkie. Not to mention the temple ceremony which literally demonstrates progression from one kingdom to the next until we are prepared to enter God's presence - a process, by the way, which LDS are symbolically carrying out on behalf of all of humanity.

"The Mormon God" is not even remotely the same capricious being who would cast off His own and for whom the sole purpose of mankind is to become His personal fan club.

I know I've written about this at length other places so if you are interested, I'll add some links. If not, I still love you :)

As for suffering - I find there is purpose in it - great, meaningful purpose. (But addressing that would turn this short story of a post into a novel.) I do want to add though that the suffering in hell is nothing more than a bright recollection of all our guilt - the pangs of conscience when we realize the injury we have caused ourselves and others through thoughtless thoughts, words, and deeds. That humbling process is one most of us experience to some degree already. For the wise and humble, it is often a catalyst for change (another word for repentance).

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:21 am 
God
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MG,

If in the resurrection I inherit terrestrial kingdom, will I ever be able to advance to the celestial kingdom and eventually godhood? If the answer to that is yes then what is the point of this life outside of getting a body?

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:05 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
MG,

If in the resurrection I inherit terrestrial kingdom, will I ever be able to advance to the celestial kingdom and eventually godhood? If the answer to that is yes then what is the point of this life outside of getting a body?


Yes and yes.

It is always about progress. Every step of the way. It's about becoming.

Whenever I talk to other LDS about this, they inevitably ask why we don't just sin in this life if we're all going to end up in the same place. You recognize this line of thinking from the Book of Mormon "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die... God will beat us with a few stripes."

My response is "Why would you want to?" At it's heart, the word sin only means to live in a way that disrupts at-one-ment with God and others. It means to make choices that separate and alienate us. It means a disconnected life. Who wants this?

If you understand that there is a way to live in peace and harmony - a way that brings release from misery, worry, division, enmity - why would you choose another path. Most people I talk to IRL, aren't experiencing the fruit of the gospel in their lives today. They are counting on a posthumous reward to make a painful life here worthwhile. I ask "Why wait?" Why not live in a way right now that builds relationship you want to last forever.

Further, why would you want to live in a way that brings remorse, dissatisfaction, and only fleeting pleasures to stave off the insatiable hunger for unity with others, connection, and joy. The reality is that none of us have to live that way. An understanding of the gospel frees us to progress even beyond the telestial world we now inhabit.

Now, to be clear, when I say gospel I'm not talking about the pitiful excuse for good news we have hedged about to the point that many LDS can't even remember why we had reason to shout for joy. I'm not talking about earrings or white shirts, or symbolic ordinances (for those are only teaching tools), or any other of the countless Mormon phylacteries. I'm talking about the very basic promise that God provides a way to be released from a stagnant (damned) and unhappy existence through the incarnated Christ.

If you're only here to get a body, you're wasting a lot of good time. :)

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 10:56 am 
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mercyngrace wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
MG,

If in the resurrection I inherit terrestrial kingdom, will I ever be able to advance to the celestial kingdom and eventually godhood? If the answer to that is yes then what is the point of this life outside of getting a body?


Yes and yes.

It is always about progress. Every step of the way. It's about becoming.

Whenever I talk to other LDS about this, they inevitably ask why we don't just sin in this life if we're all going to end up in the same place. You recognize this line of thinking from the Book of Mormon "eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die... God will beat us with a few stripes."

My response is "Why would you want to?" At it's heart, the word sin only means to live in a way that disrupts at-one-ment with God and others. It means to make choices that separate and alienate us. It means a disconnected life. Who wants this?

If you understand that there is a way to live in peace and harmony - a way that brings release from misery, worry, division, enmity - why would you choose another path. Most people I talk to IRL, aren't experiencing the fruit of the gospel in their lives today. They are counting on a posthumous reward to make a painful life here worthwhile. I ask "Why wait?" Why not live in a way right now that builds relationship you want to last forever.

Further, why would you want to live in a way that brings remorse, dissatisfaction, and only fleeting pleasures to stave off the insatiable hunger for unity with others, connection, and joy. The reality is that none of us have to live that way. An understanding of the gospel frees us to progress even beyond the telestial world we now inhabit.

Now, to be clear, when I say gospel I'm not talking about the pitiful excuse for good news we have hedged about to the point that many LDS can't even remember why we had reason to shout for joy. I'm not talking about earrings or white shirts, or symbolic ordinances (for those are only teaching tools), or any other of the countless Mormon phylacteries. I'm talking about the very basic promise that God provides a way to be released from a stagnant (damned) and unhappy existence through the incarnated Christ.

If you're only here to get a body, you're wasting a lot of good time. :)


Thanks M&G

A few thoughts regarding the LDS perspective.

1. The length of this life is like the a blink of an eye (or less) in the scope of eternity. "Wasting" 70 years or so here is meaningless when you think about it. A trillion years from now it will make no difference at all as long as there are no permanent judgements based on our actions here.
2. If there is continued progression in the LDS heaven, what is the point of three kingdoms and God's promise to reward those who are obedient, when eventually everyone can achieve exaltation?
3. Why do we assume that those things that make us happy as mortals will also make us happy in the hear after? Why do we assume that a God has need of relationships or emotions? We LDS seem to create concepts of God and eternity based on mortal perceptions of happiness. It is sort of like the little girl who cannot understand why adults don't like to play with dolls.
4. If happiness in this life is only found through belief in Christ, the system in place to bring people to that belief has all the hallmarks of one created by man, not a benevolent God.

I appreciate your knowledge and devotion MG but I cannot reconcile a benevolent omnipotent God with how I understand the LDS religion. I would extend that to religion in general but I have such a poor understanding of other religions that it is an opinion of ignorance.

By the way, I am pretty sure there are those within the LDS Church (Packer is one that comes to mind) who do not believe in progression between kingdoms.

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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:26 am 
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I have found these quotes:

Quote:
The brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression; others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on this point.”

-Secretary to the First Presidency in a 1952 letter; and again in 1965

“None would inherit this earth when it became celestial and translated into the presence of God but those who would be crowned as Gods ; all others would have to inherit another kingdom ; they would eventually have the privilege of proving themselves worthy and advancing to a celestial kingdom but it would be a slow process [progress?].”

-Brigham Young, in Wilford Woodruff Journal, 5 Aug 1855

“Once a person enters these glories there will be eternal progress in the line of each of these particular glories, but the privilege of passing from one to another (though this may be possible for especially gifted and faithful characters) is not provided for.”

-Joseph F. Smith, Improvement Era 14:87 [November 1910]

“I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.”

-J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

“It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for. But if the recipients of a lower glory be enabled to advance, surely the intelligences of higher rank will not be stopped in their progress; and thus we may conclude, that degrees and grades will ever characterize the kingdoms of our God. Eternity is progressive; perfection is relative; the essential feature of God’s living purpose is its associated power of eternal increase.”

-James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith [1899 edition] pp. 420-421

You that are mourning about your children straying away will have your sons and your daughters. If you succeed in passing through these trials and afflictions and receive a resurrection, you will, by the power of the Priesthood, work and labor, as the Son of God has, until you get all your sons and daughters in the path of exaltation and glory. This is just as sure as that the sun rose this morning over yonder mountains. Therefore, mourn not because all your sons and daughters do not follow in the path that you have marked out to them, or give heed to your counsels. Inasmuch as we succeed in securing eternal glory, and stand as saviors, and as kings and priests to our God, we will save our posterity. When Jesus went through that terrible torture on the cross, He saw what would be accomplished by it; He saw that His brethren and sisters the sons and daughters of God would be gathered in, with but few exceptions those who committed the unpardonable sin. That sacrifice of the divine Being was effectual to destroy the powers of Satan. I believe that every man and woman who comes into this life and passes through it, that life will be a success in the end. It may not be in this life. It was not with the antedeluvians. They passed through troubles and afflictions; 2,500 years after that, when Jesus went to preach to them, the dead heard the voice of the Son of God and they lived. They found after all that it was a very good thing that they had conformed to the will of God in leaving the spiritual life and passing through this world. Lorenzo Snow, MS 56:49-53; Collected Discourses 3:364-65.

The question of advancement within the great divisions of glory
celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; as also the question of
advancement from one sphere of glory to another remains to be
considered. In the revelation from which we have summarized what has
been written here, in respect to the different degrees of glory, it is
said that those of the terrestrial glory will be ministered unto by
those of the celestial; and those of the telestial will be ministered
unto by those of the terrestrial—that is, those of the higher glory
minister to those of a lesser glory. I can conceive of no reason for
all this administration of the higher to the lower, unless it be for
the purpose of advancing our Father's children along the lines of
eternal progression. Whether or not in the great future, full of so
many possibilities now hidden from us, they of the lesser glories
after education and advancement within those spheres may at last
emerge from them and make their way to the higher degrees of glory
until at last they attain to the highest, is not revealed in the
revelations of God, and any statement made on the subject must partake
more or less of the nature of conjecture. But if it be granted that
such a thing is possible, they who at the first entered into the
celestial glory—having before them the privilege also of eternal
progress—have been moving onward, so that the relative distance
between them and those who have fought their way up from the lesser
glories may be as great when the latter have come into the degrees of
celestial glory in which the righteous at first stood, as it was at
the commencement. Thus: Those whose faith and works are such only as
to enable them to inherit a telestial glory, may arrive at last where
those whose works in this life were such as to enable them to entrance
into the celestial kingdom—they may arrive where these were, but never
where they are.

B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God 1:391-392.

Some years ago I was in Washington, D.C., with President Harold B. Lee. Early one morning he called me to come into his hotel room. He was sitting in his robe reading Gospel Doctrine, by President Joseph F. Smith, and he said, “Listen to this!

“ ‘Jesus had not finished his work when his body was slain, neither did he finish it after his resurrection from the dead; although he had accomplished the purpose for which he then came to the earth, he had not fulfilled all his work. And when will he? Not until he has redeemed and saved every son and daughter of our father Adam that have been or ever will be born upon this earth to the end of time, except the sons of perdition. That is his mission. We will not finish our work until we have saved ourselves, and then not until we shall have saved all depending upon us; for we are to become saviors upon Mount Zion, as well as Christ. We are called to this mission.’ ” 22

“There is never a time,” the Prophet Joseph Smith taught, “when the spirit is too old to approach God. All are within the reach of pardoning mercy, who have not committed the unpardonable sin.” 23

Boyd K. Packer, “The Brilliant Morning of Forgiveness,” Ensign, Nov. 1995, 18


So it is an unsettled question.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 11:59 am 
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no, mormon parents pin their hopes on telestial visitation rights.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:00 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I'm not a Mormon; however, my Biblical based Christian belief is that God will remove all memory of everything that hurts us. The memory of those in hell will be wiped away. It will be as though they never existed.

LittleNipper, why do they go on existing?

LittleNipper wrote:
The saved get a new life. The damned will exist forever with all their "if only's."

What good comes from the damned existing forever? Why doesn't God put them out of their misery, cause them to cease to exist?

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KevinSim

"I have faith in God ... How do you get anything circular out of that?" Kevin Sim
"I think Bazooka is either just trying to annoy you by insisting you're using circular reasoning, or he doesn't understand what circular reasoning is." Chomsky


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:07 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 5:16 pm
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Location: A castellated abbey
I don't think there's a parent on this board who hasn't had days when they would rejoice to see their children in hell.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: You'll rejoice when you see your children in hell
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:10 pm 
God
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Boilermaker wrote:
Is that the way Mormons think too? I've never noticed that particular line of thinking among the LDS. I think LDS would say they would grieve to see their child lost from them in heaven. Am I wrong?

As I understand it, Joseph Smith said that the only sorrow God and all the righteous will experience in the Celestial Kingdom is the knowledge of their loved ones who didn't make it there. So no, that's not the way Mormons think; we will mourn over any of our children that end up in Hell, and we'll feel sorrow for the things they have to suffer.

I have gotten to experience a small degree of that myself over the last few years. My wife Sandy and I tried to raise our children in the LDS Church, but all three have had their bouts with rebelliousness, and my oldest got pretty solidly addicted to cigarettes. For a big portion of the last two or three years I have at times wanted the tobacco companies to just go away, because I thought if they did my daughter couldn't smoke, and then she wouldn't die the extremely painful death of lung cancer. Needless to say, I was not happy with the future I thought she was preparing for.

But that story has a sort of happy ending. My daughter quit smoking a few months ago. If she can stay away from tobacco permanently then maybe the lung cancer thing won't be in her future.

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KevinSim

"I have faith in God ... How do you get anything circular out of that?" Kevin Sim
"I think Bazooka is either just trying to annoy you by insisting you're using circular reasoning, or he doesn't understand what circular reasoning is." Chomsky


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