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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Thread banned. A first. I don't take such things lightly. I will take my dolls and go home, back to worshipping Mammon. Thus ends 20 years of BBS, Compuserve or internet apologetics. Histrionics over.

I know we rarely agree on anything, Bob, but you did the right thing over there. If only the celebrity apologists there would do the same.

Stick around and we'll have some fun ... like in the old days. :razz:

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
One could accurately accuse me of, on very rare occasions, using double entendre and mild sexual innuendo. It's true. I have no problem with that kind of thing, and I shake my head at those who do. Again, I have never been vulgar or obscene.

This guy has "never been vulgar or obscene"? He's deranged. A quick review of MsJack's 5/1/11 post reveals these words from Will (and I'm not even including the "c-word") to describe several women on this bb:

1. KimberlyAnn -- Will's referring to (i) her breasts as "the girls" and "melons," (ii) her body as a "voluptuous spirit tabernacle," (iii) her dress as something a porn star would wear, (iv) her "fat ass," and (v) KimberlyAnn herself as a "whore" (via his reference to 1 Nephi 14:11);

2. Beastie -- Will's referring to her "'Barbie doll-like' immortal body" that no man will want in the CK, and calling her "Bitchie," "a lying, deceitful bitch of a woman," "deceitful shrew," "ham hock," "hot little dish," and "beatsheba";

3. liz3564 -- Will's referring to her "bitchiness" and as a "wrinkled middle-aged woman with varicose veins," and "homely waitress";

4. harmony -- Will's characterizing her as "the toughest talking blowhard of a bitch" and "gnarly, snarly wench";

5. Emma Smith -- Will's describing her as a "champion bitch" and "emotionally volatile, high-maintenance ... royal pain in the ass";

6. Lucinda -- Will's nominating her for the "'loathsome specimen of womanhood' award"; and

7. Unnamed MDB female posters -- Will's referring to them as "allegedly female," "shemales," and "creatures."

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
You see, that's the real issue here: all of this is one big gross exaggeration coupled with a sprinkling of forgeries to give it the patina of real offensiveness.

Oh, this is rich, in light of the above quotes.

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
And make no mistake about it, that is precisely what these people seek to do: destroy those whom they perceive to be threats to their anti-Mormon cause.

Dude, only the folks around here want your paper published so we can read it. Post it on your blog.

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
I want to publicly commend Ray A and Eric Norwood. They are men to whom truth really means something. "Rollo Tomasi" had a chance to be such a man, but he yielded to the demands of the mob of which he is a part. That's sad.

I have not yielded to anyone. My position has never changed. I did not see the "c-word" in your post, but there was a time I was not on the thread and could have missed it. Other folks here did see it and harmony has stated unequivocally that she deleted the word. I believe them and her ... and NOT you, based on your past lies and embellishments (as well as your consistent misogynistic behavior).

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
In fact, my prestige has been enhanced as a result of the concerted effort that has been made to discredit me.

Don't kid yourself -- you're a laughing stock now more than ever.

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
In faithful LDS circles, we have long since learned that those to whom the anti-Mormons pay the most attention and expend the most effort in their attempts to defame are those who must have the most important things to say and do.

Do you include the administration at BYU and MI as among the "faithful LDS circle" since they canned your arse?

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
The anti-Mormons correctly perceive that this discovery threatens their long-standing mythology of Book of Abraham production, and therefore they are attempting to nip it in the bud, as it were.

C'mon ... all the so-called "antis" are those who want to read the damn thing -- under your theory, Satan's minions include the administrators at BYU and MI who tubed your article.

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
I cannot say more at this point in time, but suffice it to say that I have not been permanently discredited; my chances to publish are not destroyed--quite the opposite my friends.

Oh, good, more conspiracy tripe from Will.

Will Schryver on MADB wrote:
The enemies of the Church have rejoiced for a season, but their celebration has been premature, and before long, it will become apparent that their fantasy of destroying Mormon apologetics has simply been a pipe dream sown in a gale.

Again, are you including BYU and MI administrators among "the enemies of the Church"?

I have read most of the entire threads where Schryver's posts come from. Read in context, his words you quote are not saying the kinds of things you want to make people believe. I encourage everyone who is not already prejudiced to do what I have done.

I could not care less about Schryver's apologetics. I've watched his FAIR presentation twice and I still don't understand what he's trying to say. But I think this whole misogyny thing is a bunch of overblown nonsense.


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Bob Crockett wrote:
Time to stop, Will. You haven't defended yourself adequately here. If a member of my law firm posted in an email the stuff you've posted here from your exchanges with Kimberly, he or she would be disciplined. It doesn't matter that you try and make a joke out of it.


Pay real careful attention folks, because this is what all of this hullabaloo is really about: the future posture and image of LDS scholarship on Mormonism. What is being decided here is whether there will be an expectation of professionalism or not. In that decision-making process, Will finally gets to play a truly important role: something that he can rightly be remembered for.

How?

Because Will is an excellent example of what it is to be unprofessional in one's behavior in the conduct of LDS scholarship. Indeed, he has shown us his complete disregard for professional behavior on numerous occasions. Those that stand out in my mind are as follows:

1) His continual inappropriate conduct toward others as he has gone about defending the LDS Church. His sexual comments loom large here, but his paranoid attacks on other LDS scholars like Professor Brian Hauglid are also unacceptable.

2) While I hate to bring it up yet again, his complete disregard for the confidentiality of the peer-review process by advertising his rejection of my Sunstone notes, which I generously allowed FAIR access to in response to their polite request, is another excellent example.

Now, I don't really care whether you stand on the pro-Mormon, anti-Mormon, or interested bystander side. Any side will view these impolitic and unprofessional actions as a liability. It is only "classic-FARMS" that seemed to think such sophomoric pranks were funny stuff to be yukked up instead of called out and corrected. Gerald Bradford has taken a lot of heat from the goons who thought that their National Lampoons contributions to LDS scholarship were simply innocent good times. Evidently Bradford, being an adult professional, did not agree.

Bob Crockett, as much as I have disagreed with and disliked many things he has done here, is an adult professional too. Others ought to listen to the grown up in the room and end the indulgence of these perpetual adolescents who think they are entitled to promote themselves at the expense of the LDS Church they claim to defend.


Bob was just banned. WOW, just wow . . .

And Bob is absolutely correct as I have stated here before. In the workplace these statements would be sexual harrasment. It isn't even close.


Last edited by Cicero on Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:

Well, the LDS position, it seems to me, is that the Book of Abraham is the word of God and sacred scripture. Beyond that, I am not sure what one could say. It seems to me that the precise meaning of "translate" is unknown, as is the precise process by which Joseph Smith received divine revelation when he "translated" such records. I know there are theories, but there is no consensus, and there is certainly no doctrinal position on the matter.

So, I don't see how Will's alleged scholarship either damages or enhances the LDS position on the Book of Abraham. He presents his vision, which is informed by his preconceptions about Joseph Smith's revelatory process. I don't see much more than that at this point, but I have not read his scholarship, thanks mostly to his own shilly-shallying about it.


To me the KEP is physical evidence that shows Joseph Smith producing a portion of the Book of Abraham from a specific location on existing papyri. Like Facsimile #3 with the KEP we have documentation of which Egyptian characters Joseph Smith was looking at when he translated. Will's theories make the KEP less of an issue as far as divine translation/revelation claims. If nothing else it moves Joseph Smith attempts at translating the papyri into a horribly inept secular attempt.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Cicero wrote:
Bob was just banned. WOW, just wow . . .

And Bob is absolutely corect as I have stated here before. In the workplace these statements would be sexual harrasment. It isn't even close.


Bob must be one of those hate filled antis who can't read things in context. :rolleyes:

Good to know somebody on the mopologist side has a backbone.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Thread banned. A first. I don't take such things lightly. I will take my dolls and go home, back to worshipping Mammon. Thus ends 20 years of BBS, Compuserve or internet apologetics. Histrionics over.



Bob you and I have crossed swords at times. But I must say I admire you very much so for your stance at MDD. Well said!


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Ludd wrote:
I have read most of the entire threads where Schryver's posts come from. Read in context, his words you quote are not saying the kinds of things you want to make people believe. I encourage everyone who is not already prejudiced to do what I have done.

So enlighten me with some acceptable "context" in which Schryver referred to women on this bb (as well as Emma Smith) as "bitch" (as well as "champion bitch" for Emma), "porn star" (via reference to the AVN), "whore" (via reference to scripture), "shrew," and "ham hock," as well as his describing their bodies (or parts thereof) as "melons" and "the girls" (for breasts), "fat ass," "voluptuous spirit tabernacle," "Barbie doll-like immortal body," "hot little dish," "royal pain in the ass" (again referring to Emma), "shemales," and "creatures." How can you possibly defend this guy?

Quote:
But I think this whole misogyny thing is a bunch of overblown nonsense.

Apparently BYU administrators thought otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:35 pm 
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By the way I fired a person for sexual harrasment issues that were well below the level of what Shryver said here.

The man is a loon, really and a meglomaniac if he really thinks the sole intent of the Ms Jack thread was to destroy him and all LDS apologetics.


And what the hell, if his paper is so great why can't it be published by FAIR or someone? Or why doesn't he just put in up in the internet somewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
Or why doesn't he just put in up in the internet somewhere?

Agreed. He has his very own blog, so why not just post it there?

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
By the way I fired a person for sexual harrasment issues that were well below the level of what Shryver said here.

The man is a loon, really and a meglomaniac if he really thinks the sole intent of the Ms Jack thread was to destroy him and all LDS apologetics.


And what the hell, if his paper is so great why can't it be published by FAIR or someone? Or why doesn't he just put in up in the internet somewhere?


He signed a research contract with the church that obligates him to get their permission to publish it. They approved ir for publication but then Bradford decided to stop the presses. Therefore, he doesn't have permission to just post it on his blog.

This is all according to Will, but I have seen these contracts before, and what he is describing is definitely standard operating procedure.


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Bob ~ We've had our differences, but I agree with mercyngrace. Thank you for taking a principled stand on this.

Take care.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Ludd wrote:
I have read most of the entire threads where Schryver's posts come from. Read in context, his words you quote are not saying the kinds of things you want to make people believe. I encourage everyone who is not already prejudiced to do what I have done.

So enlighten me with some acceptable "context" in which Schryver referred to women on this bb (as well as Emma Smith) as "bitch" (as well as "champion bitch" for Emma), "porn star" (via reference to the AVN), "whore" (via reference to scripture), "shrew," and "ham hock," as well as his describing their bodies (or parts thereof) as "melons" and "the girls" (for breasts), "fat ass," "voluptuous spirit tabernacle," "Barbie doll-like immortal body," "hot little dish," "royal pain in the ass" (again referring to Emma), "shemales," and "creatures." How can you possibly defend this guy?

Quote:
But I think this whole misogyny thing is a bunch of overblown nonsense.

Apparently BYU administrators thought otherwise.

Rollo, in case you haven't been around these parts much lately, Ludd is almost certainly a sock puppet of Schryver.

Ludd wrote:
If my wife wore a dress that barely covered her breasts, I think I would expect such comments. Maybe that's why [KimberlyAnn] is now divorced (per what was said on another thread about her). Her husband probably didn't like the fact that she was wearing porn-star attire in public.

viewtopic.php?p=614915#p614915

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Cicero wrote:
He signed a research contract with the church that obligates him to get their permission to publish it. They approved it for publication but then Bradford decided to stop the presses. Therefore, he doesn't have permission to just post it on his blog.

This is all according to Will, but I have seen these contracts before, and what he is describing is definitely standard operating procedure.

So does the LDS Church/BYU own his article now and forever (or just the high resolution pictures they allowed him to copy)? If this is the case, I bet we'll never see the article.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:51 pm 
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So when Will says "they" are conspiring against him, he means the Bretheren?

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:53 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
Rollo, in case you haven't been around these parts much lately, Ludd is almost certainly a sock puppet of Schryver.

Ludd wrote:
If my wife wore a dress that barely covered her breasts, I think I would expect such comments. Maybe that's why [KimberlyAnn] is now divorced (per what was said on another thread about her). Her husband probably didn't like the fact that she was wearing porn-star attire in public.

I hadn't seen that. I have to admit, "Ludd" certainly sounds like Will.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
I hadn't seen that. I have to admit, "Ludd" certainly sounds like Will.


It must be Will. He called me a ****wad which means he has the power of discernment. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
It must be Will. He called me a ****wad which means he has the power of discernment.

Certainly you are mistaken. Will/"Ludd" would never use the bolded word above -- that word must have been inserted in Ludd's post by a nefarious moderator -- probably the same who put the "c-word" in Will's post. :lol:

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-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)


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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:06 pm 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
So enlighten me with some acceptable "context" in which Schryver referred to women on this bb (as well as Emma Smith) as "bitch" (as well as "champion bitch" for Emma), "porn star" (via reference to the AVN), "whore" (via reference to scripture), "shrew," and "ham hock," as well as his describing their bodies (or parts thereof) as "melons" and "the girls" (for breasts), "fat ass," "voluptuous spirit tabernacle," "Barbie doll-like immortal body," "hot little dish," "royal pain in the ass" (again referring to Emma), "shemales," and "creatures." How can you possibly defend this guy?


Will has never found his own behavior problematic, neither have his sock puppets.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Thread banned. A first. I don't take such things lightly. I will take my dolls and go home, back to worshipping Mammon. Thus ends 20 years of BBS, Compuserve or internet apologetics. Histrionics over.


I respect and applaud your response to the MI situation and to Will's exploitation of it to fabricate his own drama.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
To me the KEP is physical evidence that shows Joseph Smith producing a portion of the Book of Abraham from a specific location on existing papyri. Like Facsimile #3 with the KEP we have documentation of which Egyptian characters Joseph Smith was looking at when he translated. Will's theories make the KEP less of an issue as far as divine translation/revelation claims. If nothing else it moves Joseph Smith attempts at translating the papyri into a horribly inept secular attempt.


Yep. That is one of the standard views. I don't think it is the only or even the best interpretation, but it is shared by others.

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 Post subject: Re: William Schryver - Modern Martyr
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Yahoo Bot wrote:
Thread banned. A first. I don't take such things lightly. I will take my dolls and go home, back to worshipping Mammon. Thus ends 20 years of BBS, Compuserve or internet apologetics. Histrionics over.


I respect and applaud your response to the MI situation and to Will's exploitation of it to fabricate his own drama.


Going back to your earlier post Kish, what does the banning of Bob and treehugger say about the state of apologetics speaking broadly, if anything? I'm torn over whether this means that apologists really won't take professionalism and decorum seriously, or whether it just means that Nemesis is a prick that likes Will Schryver and Pahoran.

Bob: You did well in calling out other prominent apologists to state their views on Will's posts clearly. And just remember that you are in good company (you probably don't give much value to compliments from folks here, but there a lot of folks at BYU that agree with you).


Last edited by Cicero on Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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