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 Post subject: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:39 pm 
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In Sunday school yesterday, the teacher noted that, of Alma's three sons, the one with all the questions and doubts was the one who fell into sin.

She drew the conclusion that questions and/or doubts lead to sin, but that unquestioning acceptance of the gospel leads to righteousness.

Thoughts? :twisted:

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:42 pm 
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The converse seems to be a common view: sin leads to doubt. So it's obvious that those who doubt or leave the church have a problem with sin. Those who stay obviously don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:46 pm 
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I felt personally affronted especially by the idea that blind acceptance and obedience leads to righteousness, while doubts and questions lead to sin.

What is the take-away from such a lesson, I wonder . . . ?

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Wasn't it Uchdorf who said don't judge me for sinning differently than you. Since nobody is perfect, and everyone commits some type of sin on a fairly regular basis, everyone is a sinner. Mormons just don't notice the sins until you express doubts.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:02 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
I felt personally affronted especially by the idea that blind acceptance and obedience leads to righteousness, while doubts and questions lead to sin.

What is the take-away from such a lesson, I wonder . . . ?



It is all about mind control. The Church has to do this. If one digs to deep and asks questions they may find the truth and the truth about the LDS Church can destroy testimonies. Just like the BYUI institute teacher told me on the fateful New Years Eve of 2006. I had been reading much more Church history than I even had. I asked him some questions about a couple of books. He said that if I was going to dig deep into Church history I better have a strong testimony. I found it odd that he felt that way. Even though I was fairly well versed in LDS history up to that point as I explored further it became clear to me why he had said that.

Keep em dumb, happy and in the pews. No tough questions allowed. You must be sinning if you ask. Such things make open and honest dialogue tough.


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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:03 pm 
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Well, since it is a sin to entertain doubt or not go to church CLEARLY everyone who doubts is sinning.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:30 pm 
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FWIW, I still feel in some way like I'm sinning by distancing myself from LDS. I can't shake it.

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Last edited by zeezrom on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:34 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
FWIW, I still feel I'm some way like I'm sinning by distancing myself from LDS. I can't shake it.


You left because your conscience wouldn't let you uphold a lie. That is not a sin.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:02 pm 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
You left because your conscience wouldn't let you uphold a lie. That is not a sin.

I suppose so. It happens when I look in the mirror.

Once I was this clean-shaven, run-of-the mill dads. I gave priesthood blessings, did my hometeaching, spent hours in leadership meetings, read the BofM like it was meaningful, dressed up in my suit each week, prepared to have my kids walk my same walk.

Now I see a different guy. He is bearded and he mows the lawn on Sunday while his wife goes to church. His kids don't believe in Jesus. He is sometimes a different guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:40 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
She drew the conclusion that questions and/or doubts lead to sin, but that unquestioning acceptance of the gospel leads to righteousness.

Thoughts?

That all depends on what your definition of sin is.

And....also.....which came first the chicken or the egg....er, I mean....the sinning / doubting or the leaving?

I never drank a cup of coffee prior to my doubting and then leaving the church. Now I drink coffee every morning.

Is drinking coffee sinning? Yes! (According to TBMs)

So when they see me drinking my coffee (or notice my coffee maker on my kitchen counter), I'm sure members think, "See....I knew she started doubting and now she's drinking coffee and is out of the church!" Or, "I knew she wanted to sin and that's why she left!"

I also drink wine now....and vodka martinis....but I never even tasted alcohol before I doubted and left.

So, I can see why members of the church believe that doubting leads to sinning. (At least their definition of sinning).


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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:52 pm 
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I don’t blame her for drawing that inference really. Mormons are not taught how to read the text of the Book of Mormon in anything but the most surface and banal way, so readings like that are going to be legion.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:09 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
I don’t blame her for drawing that inference really. Mormons are not taught how to read the text of the Book of Mormon in anything but the most surface and banal way, so readings like that are going to be legion.


That's not true! What about chiasmus?

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Quote:
Thoughts?


After you.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:15 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
After you.


So much for intellectual seriousness. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Tell that Goddamn teacher that sins are a wonderful thing! For example, I'm grateful that I fell away from the church and am now enjoying all my gay sins. Hell yeah, baby. I love living in my sins!!

The church teaches sin is bad but I say unto you that sin is beautiful and fabulous! The church likes to call good things evil and mock the lives of all those it disagrees with. Shame on the church!

Frankly, I think the church is the real sin. And from that, I've since repented.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
MrStakhanovite wrote:
I don’t blame her for drawing that inference really. Mormons are not taught how to read the text of the Book of Mormon in anything but the most surface and banal way, so readings like that are going to be legion.


That's not true! What about chiasmus?


Thanks for the belly laugh.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Bob Loblaw wrote:
The converse seems to be a common view: sin leads to doubt. So it's obvious that those who doubt or leave the church have a problem with sin. Those who stay obviously don't.


Yep, and the men who leave the church were never able to fully control their masturbation urges. Only the faithful don't masturbate.

I have ZERO faith.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Madison54 wrote:
consiglieri wrote:
She drew the conclusion that questions and/or doubts lead to sin, but that unquestioning acceptance of the gospel leads to righteousness.

Thoughts?

That all depends on what your definition of sin is.

And....also.....which came first the chicken or the egg....er, I mean....the sinning / doubting or the leaving?

I never drank a cup of coffee prior to my doubting and then leaving the church. Now I drink coffee every morning.

Is drinking coffee sinning? Yes! (According to TBMs)

So when they see me drinking my coffee (or notice my coffee maker on my kitchen counter), I'm sure members think, "See....I knew she started doubting and now she's drinking coffee and is out of the church!" Or, "I knew she wanted to sin and that's why she left!"

I also drink wine now....and vodka martinis....but I never even tasted alcohol before I doubted and left.

So, I can see why members of the church believe that doubting leads to sinning. (At least their definition of sinning).


I agree with this. There are things "the world" considers normal that Mormons consider sins: Drinking coffee and tea, alcohol in moderation, adults watching R-rated movies, exposing your lower thigh and shoulder, tattoos. So when a member stops believing, they may start committing some of these "sins" because there is no mormon authority figure telling them they can't, and the rest of society sees nothing wrong with them. But to Mormons, these activities are signs that you are now being influenced by Satan. Also, if you start having personal struggles (financial hardships, divorce, death in the family, troubled teens, etc.) it is because you left the church and are being punished by God. However, when the same thing happens to active TBMs, they are simply trials to endure.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:56 pm 
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consiglieri wrote:
In Sunday school yesterday, the teacher noted that, of Alma's three sons, the one with all the questions and doubts was the one who fell into sin.

She drew the conclusion that questions and/or doubts lead to sin, but that unquestioning acceptance of the gospel leads to righteousness.

Thoughts? :twisted:

All the Best!

--Consiglieri


This is naïve at best. It is easily recognizable that it is the less than informed who are most impressed with this kind of non-thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:58 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
FWIW, I still feel in some way like I'm sinning by distancing myself from LDS. I can't shake it.


Yes, this makes sense, of all systems, Mormonism has the very most and best effective brain washing system down pat to the very t and i, with the crossings and dots in place.

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 Post subject: Re: Doubts Lead to Sin
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Quote:
Yep, and the men who leave the church were never able to fully control their masturbation urges. Only the faithful don't masturbate.

I have ZERO faith.

Paul O


Yes, but you're burning through the million dollars you will be given to pay for your sins at the rate of 35 cents per occurrence.

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