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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:01 pm 
Nursery

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Dianne Ormond wrote:
Apostasy is running rampant in Sweden with many prominent LDS families and leaders recently leaving the church over historical problems of the church that are becoming well-known there. In order to help these struggling members in Sweden, the LDS Church issued a document to the local leadership called 'The Swedish Rescue'.

These documents are circulating on the Internet on various Swedish Internet groups. Someone who knows Swedish translated it and sent it to MormonThink to share with other members who might find it of interest.

http://www.mormonthink.com/swedish-rescue.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:17 pm 
God

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I notice in books recommended for reading, does not include Rough Stone Rolling but his earlier book.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:50 pm 
God
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Nephi on the postmormon board where I also post (not under this name) recommended the Church run an ad "I'm on the Swedish bikini team and I'm a Mormon!" and all young men in Sweden would join immediately.

:lol:

Quote:
I notice in books recommended for reading, does not include Rough Stone Rolling but his earlier book.


I was pleased to see Bickmore's Restoring the Ancient Church

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:56 am 
I think some of the MormonThink commentary sums it up well.

Quote:
Unfortunately, there is little substance that we think has any real value to most troubled members. Nowhere in the Swedish Rescue does it mention any specific problem like polyandry, Book of Mormon anachronisms, linguistic issues, archeological problems, DNA studies, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham translation, etc.


IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 12:29 pm 
God
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Stormy Waters wrote:
IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.


It's the same old tiresome LDS prescription for troubled faith in things that have been proven wrong: Pray, pay, and obey.

Looks like Sweden is going to give the church the boot! Hell yeah! Maybe they will sell the temple and turn it into a club, a gay club! Wouldn't that be sweet?

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:17 pm 
First Presidency
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(1) The Church does not hide historical facts. In fact, it makes every effort to be open and honest about its past and current actions.

YAWN.........

Wake me up when this picture -
Image

Is replaced by this picture in church manuals -
Image

Until then....STFU.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:02 pm 
God

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Jensen argues that the church does not hide historical facts. Why does it not allow I hear access to the Council of Fifty papers. Do we have all of William Clayton's Diary? Why were they so concerned when Leonard Arrington's papers were deposited in another university library?

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Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein " For if there were no patriarchs no Exodus,no conquest of Canaan -and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon- can we say that early biblical Israel as described in the Five Books of Mosesand the books of JoshuaJudgesand Samuel ever existed at all?" The Bible Unearthed p.124.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:16 pm 
God
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Jensen argues that the church does not hide historical facts. Why does it not allow I hear access to the Council of Fifty papers. Do we have all of William Clayton's Diary?


Was there a part of William Clayton's Diary that you were interested in that isn't included in this book?

http://www.amazon.com/An-Intimate-Chron ... 1560850221

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:41 pm 
The Outcast

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Stormy Waters wrote:
IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.

Substantively address those problems how?

JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?

Etc, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:48 pm 
The Outcast

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Marlin K Jensen wrote:
faith is a conscious choice that each must make


Consciously choose to put stock in a mere hope for things not seen?

Consciously choose to act without evidence?

Consciously choose to be irrational?

Consciously choose neuroses?

Consciously...?


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:51 pm 
God
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sock puppet wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:
IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.

Substantively address those problems how?

JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?

Etc, etc.


14 year old pants? Wow! How about 14 year old boy pants!!!!

Now that's pretty baaaaaaaaad. Too heck with the 14 year old girls for Joseph Smith. Girls are gross. Bring on the 14 year old boys!!!

:lol:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:55 pm 
God
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sock puppet wrote:
Marlin K Jensen wrote:
faith is a conscious choice that each must make


Consciously choose to put stock in a mere hope for things not seen?

Consciously choose to act without evidence?

Consciously choose to be irrational?

Consciously choose neuroses?

Consciously...?


That's faith! You need to get some of that faith and repent, sock puppet. Just bow your head and say, "Yes".

:lol:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:35 pm 
God

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"Unfortunately, it must be noted that the current Mormon Church continues to suppress those portions of the historical record it deems embarrassing and a significant part of Clayton's writings from the Nauvoo period are consequently missing from the volume." found in that amazon reference u sent

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Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein " For if there were no patriarchs no Exodus,no conquest of Canaan -and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon- can we say that early biblical Israel as described in the Five Books of Mosesand the books of JoshuaJudgesand Samuel ever existed at all?" The Bible Unearthed p.124.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:20 pm 
God
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Shulem wrote:

14 year old pants? Wow! How about 14 year old boy pants!!!!

Now that's pretty baaaaaaaaad. Too heck with the 14 year old girls for Joseph Smith. Girls are gross. Bring on the 14 year old boys!!!

:lol:

Paul O

This is a request to the Mods to move the above post (and this response) to the lower Kingdom.

Sorry Paul, but an expressed enthusiasm for engaging in pedophilia doesn't seem appropriate for this forum. Sort of hard for you to condemn Joseph Smith for being a pedophile when you express the same preferences (whether seriously or in jest).

I understand that you enjoy shocking people, but a little restraint now and then wouldn't hurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:35 pm 
sock puppet wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:
IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.

Substantively address those problems how?

JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?

Etc, etc.


Um, well....

I guess they're screwed.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:06 pm 
God
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DrW wrote:
This is a request to the Mods to move the above post (and this response) to the lower Kingdom.

Sorry Paul, but an expressed enthusiasm for engaging in pedophilia doesn't seem appropriate for this forum. Sort of hard for you to condemn Joseph Smith for being a pedophile when you express the same preferences (whether seriously or in jest).

I understand that you enjoy shocking people, but a little restraint now and then wouldn't hurt.


I think my post was rated PG and it's not so much advocating pedophillia but is making a damn good point which is that people in general are not freaking out over 14 year old girls but as soon as you mention 14 year old boys the whole game changes.

If Joseph Smith took on 14 year old girls then why not 14 year old boys? Fair is fair! Is this so shocking?

Jesus.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 10:59 pm 
God
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Quote:
JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?


Neither of those claims is even close to being proven

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:08 pm 
Nursery

Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:04 am
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Cylon wrote:
While I absolutely agree with those of you who have pointed out the inadequacy of this response regarding actually providing answers, I do think it is a positive step in one respect. There are multiple instances in there where leaders are instructed to show love and understanding, and to respect people's agency. This is a far cry from the "call them to repentance" response that many have experienced from their leaders. If this approach does filter out through the whole church, it will result in much less pain for those experiencing faith crises as well as their loved ones.

I see what you mean but then I remember the courts of love. There is nothing hateful about ostracizing and maligning dissenters. It's for their own good.


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:12 am 
God
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Stormy Waters wrote:
I think some of the MormonThink commentary sums it up well.

Quote:
Unfortunately, there is little substance that we think has any real value to most troubled members. Nowhere in the Swedish Rescue does it mention any specific problem like polyandry, Book of Mormon anachronisms, linguistic issues, archeological problems, DNA studies, Kinderhook Plates, Book of Abraham translation, etc.


IMO They are going to have to address the problems in a substantive manner at some point or nothing will change.


TSCC is really in a hard place with this. Their strategy of discouraging the study of non-correlated materials is not working. Where do they go from here? How can they put a positive spin on the above list?


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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:30 am 
God
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Jensen argues that the church does not hide historical facts. Why does it not allow I hear access to the Council of Fifty papers. Do we have all of William Clayton's Diary? Why were they so concerned when Leonard Arrington's papers were deposited in another university library?


Simple, they are not "hiding" anything. They are making it "unavailable."

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 Post subject: Re: Church responds to apostasy in Sweden - 'The Swedish Res
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:00 am 
God
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
JSJr had his hands in 14 year old girls' pants?

The Book of Abraham is not what JSJr claimed?


Neither of those claims is even close to being proven



According to the LDS Church's Family History website, Joseph Smith, Jr., the 'Prophet of the Restoration', married 14-year old Helen Mark Kimball in May 1843 when he was 37.

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