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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:38 pm 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
It must suck to feel compelled to defend this, especially when you have conflicting statements from church leaders.


There is no defense. Not even Droopy is weighing in on it.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 6:43 pm 
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For your consideration:

New Zealand Mormon Church Finances: A Case Study | kiwimormon.com

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:05 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Mormon 8

Quote:
  37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

The Mormonism in which I was raised wore the plainness of LDS Chapels as a badge of honor. That was long before they put Moroni statues atop all temples, spires on meeting houses, built the Conference Center, or built the Jesus Mall--before the ascension of GBH the Doctrine Dodger.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:55 pm 
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TrashcanMan79 wrote:
ldsfaqs wrote:
A poor person, who's worrying every day where their next meal will come, or how to feed his children, his LEAST priority is going to be "valiancey" in the Gospel of Christ. He may be good, he may have belief in God, but his priority's most often than not will be on surviving.

A human being must first "survive"..... Spiritual and Gospel things are going to be some of the last things on their mind.

Matthew 6:25,31-34

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

...

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


When quoting things, you need to learn about this thing called CONTEXT.....

These scriptures are specifically in referrence to those being called as "missionary's", ministers of the Faith. They are not referring to the average person who is trying to survive or ensure his family survives.

As to "Liz's" comments..... I've been poor much of my life also, in fact I'm still poor.
You don't need to tell me that a person can be poor and spiritual.

This issue in question is speaking about a PARTICULAR subsection of humanity, one that has little God in their lives, because they simply don't have time OR energy for Him. Or at minimum, they don't have time to be more valiant in the service of God and I should say OTHERS..... When you are just trying to survive yourself, you tend to have less time and energy for other things. Are you really telling me you can't understand that concept???

Further, you clearly know nothing about what it's like to be poor. You don't know what it's like to have to go to a Construction type job, or otherwise every day, be in pain every single day, having to soak in a tub every single day in order to try and get some relief from the days work (outside of ones washing), IF you are even lucky to have a tub, most aren't.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about..... There most certainly IS a segment of humanity that meets what is being described by the Church. There ARE many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!

Step outside of your anti-mormon hatred and learn something for a change!


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Plan on buying one of those Hugo Boss suits, Lee? How about some Gucci loafers at Nordstrom?

I think City Creek is a great example of looking out for the spiritual welfare of the poor.

ETA: Here's a Hugo Boss suit that costs $1,095.00:

http://store-us.hugoboss.com/Modern-Fit ... edium-Blue

Think of all the poor people this will bring to a knowledge of the Savior.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:56 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

Further, you clearly know nothing about what it's like to be poor. You don't know what it's like to have to go to a Construction type job, or otherwise every day, be in pain every single day, having to soak in a tub every single day in order to try and get some relief from the days work (outside of ones washing), IF you are even lucky to have a tub, most aren't.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about..... There most certainly IS a segment of humanity that meets what is being described by the Church. There ARE many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!

Step outside of your anti-mormon hatred and learn something for a change!


You are quite right.
Now explain how the $5 billion dollar, non profit making, investment in an upscale shopping centre with associated offices and condo's addresses this type of temporal issue?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:43 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Trashcanman79 wrote:
Matthew 6:25,31-34

25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

...

31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.


When quoting things, you need to learn about this thing called CONTEXT.....

These scriptures are specifically in referrence to those being called as "missionary's", ministers of the Faith.

In what verse does it say this?


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:10 am 
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Darth J wrote:
Plan on buying one of those Hugo Boss suits, Lee? How about some Gucci loafers at Nordstrom?

I think City Creek is a great example of looking out for the spiritual welfare of the poor.

ETA: Here's a Hugo Boss suit that costs $1,095.00:

http://store-us.hugoboss.com/Modern-Fit ... edium-Blue

Think of all the poor people this will bring to a knowledge of the Savior.

As usual, Darth J, you are completely missing the point.

You need to think about the people who are employed at Hugo Boss - they are amongst the many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!

There must be thousands of people who now have jobs in downtown Salt Lake City.

For the sake of argument, let's imagine that there are 5000 such people.

For a mere $1000,000 per person, the LDS church, through this investment, has lifted them temporally, so that they can now join the church.

If that's not an efficient use of funds to give a temporal boost to the starving millions of the world, I don't know what is.

Now that we have the proof of concept, we just need to wait for the church to scale this up by a factor of several thousand and they will have solved world poverty.

Put your shoulder to the wheel, why don't you, instead of just criticising those who are doing it the lord's way!

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:18 am 
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malkie wrote:
You need to think about the people who are employed at Hugo Boss - they are amongst the many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!


Yes, I'm sure Hugo Boss employs the homeless and unskilled.

Right. :rolleyes:

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:33 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Further, you clearly know nothing about what it's like to be poor. You don't know what it's like to have to go to a Construction type job, or otherwise every day, be in pain every single day, having to soak in a tub every single day in order to try and get some relief from the days work (outside of ones washing), IF you are even lucky to have a tub, most aren't.

You haven't a clue what you are talking about..... There most certainly IS a segment of humanity that meets what is being described by the Church. There ARE many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!

Step outside of your anti-mormon hatred and learn something for a change!


Faqs, you assume everyone must be so unlike you. Some of us have gone through more suffering than you can comprehend - myself being one of them. Don't accuse people of not understanding poverty or suffering unless you truly know they don't.

I wonder what the Cult leaders would think of someone soaking themselves in the $million + dollar trout filled creek on a hot summer day.

Quote:
You don't need to tell me that a person can be poor and spiritual.


Keith B. McMullin, head of Deseret Management Corporation (DMC):

Quote:
“We believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”


Actually, poor people can't be spiritual according to brother McMullin.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:06 am 
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My wife was in Utah recently and went shopping at the new mall. We like to do our part to advance the mission of the church and help solve world hunger. You're welcome starving people of the world. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:08 pm 
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Every member of my family who is still TBM thinks the new mall is just wonderful. They will probably never even see this article about church finances.

That's the frustration here. Overall I believe those who should read and open their eyes to the truth won't even see it. The same goes for most of the other info coming out because of the spotlight on the Mormon church right now.


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:44 pm 
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This is a conversation I had with a TBM cousin on Facebook yesterday. While I agree that the cover of the magazine was in poor taste and they completely missed an opportunity to make a valid point and inform people, including Mormons, the article itself seemed to be pretty accurate. IMO - your mileage may vary.

TBM Cousin: It's one thing to do an article on a religion. It's another thing to mock it on the cover of a magazine. Seriously - does Businessweek really think that they are balanced and unbiased? I think not.

Me: Did you actually read the article?

Me:I really don't think J.S. set out for the church he founded to become such a corporation with its concerns more focused on wealth and money than serving those in need. Sad indeed.
tbm cousin: There is a lot of unsung stories of serving others, Kellie. The Catholic Charities and the LDS church work together on many, many disasters. In fact, they are the first ones that are contacted in many instances. It's not perfect, but no one is.

me:I do believe that members mistake much and are likely to blindly accept and follow. It is the church itself that said how much CASH of the monies collected from members that has been given to charities. It is less than 1% (right around 0.7%). The additional service and money given directly BY MEMBERS has nothing to do with how much of the collected monies the church takes in. Any 501(c)3 organization would lose its tax exempt status with such dismal numbers.

The church has become a for profit corp. If there really was a prophet instead of profit, why are none of these disasters for seen? Why are the members expected to clean the bathrooms and church buildings? Why are there so many talks about paying your tithing and giving more money to fast offerings? Why must one pay for the privilege of going to receive 'the most important ordinances' given to man.

Why are there members that are losing everything they own after years of paying tithing, yet when assistance is needed it is denied? Why does the church claim such poverty yet the leaders live in lavish homes. Why can they afford to build a $5 billion dollar project that largely looks like a great a spacious building that only the very wealthy could ever afford to live in? Why are all the current 'leaders' all very wealthy businessmen?

Where have the teachings of Jesus gone??? Where has serving the poor gone? Why do tens of thousands missionaries go out at their own expense, and every day tell others that their beliefs are wrong? Why has the true history of the church been whitewashed and leaders have been known to say things like 'some things that are true are not useful'? Why do they teach to just give 'milk' but not the meat?

Why are they losing hundreds of thousands of members every year by resignation? Many of them in very high positions? Why do so many young men come home from missions and then leave the church? Why is there such a huge underground of members on the records that are serving but that do not believe?

Why don't most members of the church even know that Joseph Smith had at least 33 wives 11 of which were under the age of 19, two of which were only 14 - including Helen Mar Kimbal, and 11 of which already had husbands? Why does the papyrus of the Book of Abraham translate as a book of breathings - or in other words a common burial prayer? Why are there absolutely NO archaeological records of anything from the Book of Mormon? Why do doctrines keep changing? It is all very curious.

tbm cousin: You need to go back to the conference talks and read them. Much of what is going on has been foreseen, and has been discussed. How many times have we been told to have a year's supply of food, as there is much danger ahead? How many times have we been told to stay out of debt? How many times have we been told to help others, and examples have been shown? Why does it have to be spelled out word for word about what is going to happen?

tbm cousin: Having toured several of the latin American countries, I see indications of the Book of Mormon history. How can a person write about the people down there, and the geography, and come up with all of that?

me: I have read all the talks I was a true believer for many years until I read the true history and things crumbled. When I say why is there no prophecy I'm talking about why is there never a warning from the prophet that a tsunami is going to happen - why no warning of earth quakes? Why do hundreds of thousands die with no prophecy of these things in a useful way??? It's easy to say - be prepared there may be a disaster. Any Mor(m)on could do that. Furthermore why oh why would a loving God make his one true church available to only 1/100th of one percent of the population??? Why is the prophet more concerned with how many ear piercings we have and why is it ok for an uneducated bishop to have a private interview with a girl only 12 years old and as ask her if she masturbates??? Why are Mormons okay with this? Why are Mormons afraid to learn the real history of the church? Why is it about money money money so much?
mw: Why can't anyone give me a direct, specific answer to any of the questions I asked?


She said I was spouting negative things about the church on her wall, that it was ugly and she didn't want it anymore - she deleted the thread. No one answered any of my questions. However, she did not unfriend me.


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Hi Big Red,
All great questions to which TBMs have no good answers......thus they respond exactly like your cousin did. They are in such denial. But I always have to remind myself that I was a lot like that not that many years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:55 am 
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harmony wrote:
malkie wrote:
You need to think about the people who are employed at Hugo Boss - they are amongst the many who need a lift Temporally before or while they are lifted spiritually!


Yes, I'm sure Hugo Boss employs the homeless and unskilled.

Right. :rolleyes:


They very well may run sweatshops somewhere in the world. You never know.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:53 am 
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Quote:
UNICEF relies on contributions from governments and private donors and UNICEF's total income for 2008 was $3,372,540,239. Governments contribute two thirds of the organization's resources; private groups and some 6 million individuals contribute the rest through the National Committees. It is estimated that 91.8% of their revenue is distributed to Program Services. UNICEF's programs emphasize developing community-level services to promote the health and well-being of children. UNICEF was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1965 and the Prince of Asturias Award of Concord in 2006.


Here is a link to UNICEF's full financial report available to the public.

http://www.unicef.org/about/execboard/f ... ditors.pdf

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:45 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Quote:
UNICEF relies on contributions from governments and private donors and UNICEF's total income for 2008 was $3,372,540,239. Governments contribute two thirds of the organization's resources; private groups and some 6 million individuals contribute the rest through the National Committees. It is estimated that 91.8% of their revenue is distributed to Program Services. UNICEF's programs emphasize developing community-level services to promote the health and well-being of children. UNICEF was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1965 and the Prince of Asturias Award of Concord in 2006.


Here is a link to UNICEF's full financial report available to the public.

http://www.unicef.org/about/execboard/f ... ditors.pdf

That's all well and fine, Drifting. But you need to remember that UNICEF is a worldly organization that is not headed by God, so there's a limit to what you can expect from it.

I can only imagine that if they had their own prophet who walked and talked with Jesus, they would also be building a mall to revitalize the area in which their HQ is situated.

Of course, with an income of less than half of the likely income of the LDS church they might be able to spend only $2B or so on their mall.

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:51 am 
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malkie wrote:
That's all well and fine, Drifting. But you need to remember that UNICEF is a worldly organization that is not headed by God, so there's a limit to what you can expect from it.

I can only imagine that if they had their own prophet who walked and talked with Jesus, they would also be building a mall to revitalize the area in which their HQ is situated.

Of course, with an income of less than half of the likely income of the LDS church they might be able to spend only $2B or so on their mall.


I guess this is where I'm a little perplexed.
It seems Jesus taught one set of principles about looking after people, especially the poor and the needy and the children. Whereas, when reading the Bible, it becomes clear that God is not only okay with killing, He actually demands it (see Flood, Moses in the book of Numbers).

It must be confusing for the First Presidency.
Do we spend billions of dollars on helping to ease the plight of those in impoverished conditions (as per Jesus) or do we say stuff 'em and let's go shopping?
It's not easy being a Profit.

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:59 am 
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Drifting wrote:
malkie wrote:
That's all well and fine, Drifting. But you need to remember that UNICEF is a worldly organization that is not headed by God, so there's a limit to what you can expect from it.

I can only imagine that if they had their own prophet who walked and talked with Jesus, they would also be building a mall to revitalize the area in which their HQ is situated.

Of course, with an income of less than half of the likely income of the LDS church they might be able to spend only $2B or so on their mall.


I guess this is where I'm a little perplexed.
It seems Jesus taught one set of principles about looking after people, especially the poor and the needy and the children. Whereas, when reading the Bible, it becomes clear that God is not only okay with killing, He actually demands it (see Flood, Moses in the book of Numbers).

It must be confusing for the First Presidency.
Do we spend billions of dollars on helping to ease the plight of those in impoverished conditions (as per Jesus) or do we say stuff 'em and let's go shopping?
It's not easy being a Profit.

I wonder if the Big 15 look at organizations like UNCEF and say: "What is wrong with these people!"

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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Madison54 wrote:
Hi Big Red,
All great questions to which TBMs have no good answers......thus they respond exactly like your cousin did. They are in such denial. But I always have to remind myself that I was a lot like that not that many years ago.


There ARE good answers.... Problem is, is you people don't have the mental and moral character to know or understand them. You ignore them.

Bottom line..... The Mall was done by CHURCH OWNED BUSINESS.... NOT the CHURCH!!!
As any balanced human being would be, they have and develop multiple aspects of their lives to make them and the world around them better. The Church does the same thing. While Church owned businesses are a part of the Church, and help the Church with it's mission, they are not the Church. They serve.

Just like a man is not his job, the Church is not it's business side and investments. That side helps the man or the Church, but that is not the man, nor the Church.

If you people can't understand simple facts, then it's no wonder you can't comprehend anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: How the Mormons Make Money | BusinessWeek.com
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:20 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Madison54 wrote:
Hi Big Red,
All great questions to which TBMs have no good answers......thus they respond exactly like your cousin did. They are in such denial. But I always have to remind myself that I was a lot like that not that many years ago.


There ARE good answers.... Problem is, is you people don't have the mental and moral character to know or understand them. You ignore them.

Bottom line..... The Mall was done by CHURCH OWNED BUSINESS.... NOT the CHURCH!!!
As any balanced human being would be, they have and develop multiple aspects of their lives to make them and the world around them better. The Church does the same thing. While Church owned businesses are a part of the Church, and help the Church with it's mission, they are not the Church. They serve.

Just like a man is not his job, the Church is not it's business side and investments. That side helps the man or the Church, but that is not the man, nor the Church.

If you people can't understand simple facts, then it's no wonder you can't comprehend anything else.


So tell us how the $5 billion non profit making upmarket City Creek project helps the Church with its mission? (just the simple facts will do...)

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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