First, my comment was made in the context of discussing my disapproval with how loyalty to one's side can trump more important values like truth and friendship based on personal character. Your story just served as a ready made example. I wouldn't characterize that as spending my days criticizing your gratitude for being welcomed with open arms and kindness so long as you bow on bended knee to the faith. While you find such behavior at any high investment religion, it's not like I'm dedicating hours each day to critiquing it in your case.

Second, I spend approximately 10 hours a day 5 days a week improving the lives of the developmentally disabled and victims of TBI's. I could easily be doing something that paid more or offered more prestige, but I do not because I care about the cause. I think most people consider that laudable thing to do that falls in line with your condescending advice to find something more valuable and productive with my time to do. On the totem pole of bettering the human condition, I'm fairly certain that ranks well above studying Mormon history. I also am currently working on a political campaign. I also routinely read phil texts. Come to think of it, I'm a pretty busy guy.

Third, this criticism is apt for pretty much anyone since no one divides their time and mental resources to the most efficient way to charitably act. People have hobbies and there's nothing wrong with that. Indeed, people indulging in superficially frivolous hobbies is important to advancing the common welfare as individual pursuit of happiness feeds collective happiness. That one of my hobbies happens to involve posting here and that your name happened to come up was an example in a point I was attempting to make doesn't mean I'm wasting my life way in ungrateful frivolity or lost opportunities for personal betterment.

Actually, that quote is from Yoda, The Empire Strikes Back.

The question of whether we think someone should be allowed, under the law, to practice their religious beliefs is separate from the question of whether we think those beliefs are true. (If you disagree, then you presumably think I should not legally be allowed to practice Mormonism.) Thus Mormons believe it should be legal to apostatize from the church, even though they believe this is a spiritual disaster. If you'd like to change this, the US jas a constitutional amendment process you could pursue.

Don

Hi EA,

I'm glad to know you spend so much time in worthwhile pursuits. And based on our chats from way back, I'm not at all surprised.

My response to you expressing disgust that I'm grateful for being re-embraced was meant only to suggest that this wasn't one of them. To my mind, it has genuine disvalue.

As I said before, it doesn't follow from a group valuing loyalty that all disloyalty will be forgiven in light of present loyalty--a distinction I think its fair to expect a thinker of your caliber to keep in mind.

Best wishes in your many cool worthwhile endeavors. You are awesome! In spite of my comment for rhetorical effect earlier, I really wish far more people would do as many worthwhile things as you do, EA.

What are your current areas of inquiry in philosophy?

Don

EA,

You're right that I was exaggerating with the comparison to Scratch. Perhaps Kishkumen would be a better parallel? My point was that I targeted Dan more than anyone else did at the time.

You're also right that the relationship at the time was mutually snarky. It got better after he and I talked in person.

Finally, you're also right that in some cases people (not including Dan) were vitriolic toward me while I was out of the church and are now very friendly, and that this is wrong. Not only is it wrong on just a general human level; it is particularly beneath the standard required of a Latter-day Saint. If I ever act like that, flame me, roast me, and kick me off the board.

Don

I think a more apt example would be, is it right that you should be shunned by your non Mormon friends simply because you've decided to believe in Mormonism? If no, then Mormons shouldn't shun people who leave Mormonism...but they do.

I could not agree more, Drifting.

I can't see anything good that comes from treating someone poorly. I also find it inconsistent with my faith.

Don

Do you think that you are more likely (not that you weren't anyway) to treat apostates and people 'drifting' out of belief with more understanding having done that journey yourself?

Absolutely. I'm even willing to tolerate you, Drifting!

;)

While I want my fellow Latter-day Saints to continue in the vigorous defense of the faith, I would like to help them also understand what people go through when they "drift" and to accept them as people and treat them kindly.

Don

How rude!




I think perhaps the reaction to a gospel 'drifter' by the membership speeds up the journey out. Wards/Classes tend to close ranks and block out any questions the troubled individual might want an open and frank discussion about.

The reaction by leaders and members certainly drove me to look elsewhere for discussion and answers. I got them, but they were tainted by the knowledge (rightly or wrongly) that the Church wanted the information kept from me; and by the fact that members, now thst i have the answers, treat me as a danger.

I think only Jensen has recognised that this is probably the biggest retention issue that they face. Sadly, the outcome of him speaking out was he got his marching orders.

Don:

The next time you see Wade, please try to dissuade him from this notion (shared by many apologists):



I'm glad (and not surprised at all) that Dan has welcomed you back with open arms, but my guess is that many other apologists share the view espoused by Wade above and continue to view you with suspicion. I wish you all the best in your attempts to help folks in the church deal with doubters; the church really needs it.

Do you have a source for that? I have absolutely no doubt that several GAs were mortified to hear Jensen's candid comments, but I thought he was also at the typical age when emeritus status is granted?

I've heard this alluded to before, but could you give some more details? What exactly happened with Elder Jensen? I know about the discussion where he talked about the 'greatest apostasy since Kirtland' (paraphrasing), but I don't know much about what went on after that.

Edit: Just saw Cicero's post, so yeah, what he said.

No source. Just me speaking as a man and based on seeing the rapid reduction in his role (removed from overseeing historian activities IIRC) since articulating publicly that members were leaving in droves because the Church was pretty poor at telling the truth about its history and doctrines; all of which followed closely after he (on a personal basis) apologised to some gay members for the way the Church had treated them.

I think he was becoming too Christlike and they can't be letting that happen...

What I was expressing disgust with is the tendency of certain people to treat apostates and critics poorly and the faithful well simply on the basis of that fact alone. That includes whether they'll consider you a friend, whether they'll read your arguments charitably, whether they will bite their tongue on criticizing you, etc. That this would happen in your case is entirely unsurprising to me and would be no different if you were a JW. I do not modify my behavior this way based on whether someone is an atheist. That would be utterly foreign to me. I find this behavior wrong and evocative of a cultish mentality. I think it creepy. That the warm embrace you received involved this and you seemed pleased by it was offputting to me, but I did not say it disgusted me. One of the common aspects of high maintenance faiths is the tendency to have intense ingroup loyalty/comradere and to treat outsiders well only insofar as they are seen as potential converts that are not a threat to the faith. I do not think you are like this, but we seem to greatly differ on how to comment on this behavior in others.

Perhaps the problem is that you don't understand that I'm not being disgusted by being reembraced or forgiven, but by you being treated well only as a condition of your continued loyalty to the faith. That you say DCP wasn't like this means something to me, but based on what I saw online, that certainly isn't true of everyone who reembraced you. Make no mistake, if you apostasize again and are openly critical of the LDS faith, you're going back to the shark tank. I view that kind of friendship as hollow.
Well, I continue to keep up on phil of religion and metaethics as those have always been my prime interests. Lately I've been trying to get up to snuff on idealism.

Remind me never to stack my service to humanity against yours!

First of all, I want to thank you for the information about Daniel Peterson and Bill Hamblin that you linked to from your blog.

Second, my socks don't stink.

Lastly, I'm disappointed that no additional quotes from Peterson, Hamblin, and Schryver have been provided on this thread. I appreciate that so many of you dislike them for the things they have said online, but I still need the actual quotes and links! I'm sorry, but lame jokes about boobs and cheerleader pompoms and tatoos and "butthead" acrostics just don't cut it. I'm looking for things that go far beyond that kind of stuff.

I gave the link to this thread to my acquaintance who is looking for this information and he has been checking it out from time to time. Needless to say, he hasn't been that impressed with what he has seen so far. So I hope someone can get some really good stuff and post it.

Thanks..........

You're mistaken. Take another sniff.

You could look into what they did to Michael Quinn's career, including all the "we know more about this than we can tell" hints about Quinn's character, sexuality, and the reasons for his excommunication. Similarly, Kevin Graham has documented where Peterson did the same thing to Robert Ritner, saying that John Gee had him removed from his dissertation committee and that Ritner might be gay. I've already mentioned Schryver's creepy stalking and fantasizing about a woman he saw at the exmormon conference (the one he made the boob jokes about), and a friend I trust tells me Schryver stalked him for a long time and threatened him and his wife with violence.

The reason you're not finding any "good stuff" is that you're not looking very hard.

Looks like Schryver has shaved his beard:

This last post by the OP confirms everyone's suspicions.

This.

Looks like he may have lost the ponytail too.