Nay, nay, beautiful Madeleine (I have faith you are beautiful), to believe these things is a matter of faith, but to lead people to an incorrect belief is a matter of morality. Stating God is a corporal being, flesh and bone - that is contrary to the nature of a Christian god because it places limits on God. This is clearly a violation of the perceived 'right' way to view God.

But, this is not very interesting, what is more interesting follows.



There are many things that Mormonism teaches that can be considered major foundational changes. I've pointed out a few earlier. It seems to me that it is not the morality of the Christian world that is at odds with LDS teachings; it is the morality of the individual.

This is not wrong. But let's call it what it is. You don't get to reject some foundational changes and not others by conveniently benchmarking against Christianity. You either throw all of it away or none of it away.

Integrity is always at odds with faith. One has to have faith that God speaks to prophets. Integrity is what speaks up inside of us, telling us that a prophet is full of s***. Once that happens, I think you have to give up your Mormon card; no one needs revelation to have integrity guide them.

H.

They don't. Women and men don't have to get married. And the women and men who don't get married will end up in the lower two degrees of the Celestial Kingdom or the Terrestrial or the Telestial Kingdom (or, I guess, among the Sons of Perdition).

According to whom?

Mormons believing or teaching what they believe and teach is, of itself, not immoral.

IF an individual teaching incorrect beliefs knew they were incorrect beliefs, that would be an immoral act of the individual.

It is one of the reasons (among many) I view Joseph Smith as amoral. I have no doubt he knew he was lying.

People who believe incorrectly, through no fault of their own, are not immoral.



No doubt it is heterodox.



There are moral teachings, the most relevant for this thread being "thou shalt not commit adultery".

If you're just talking about the next life, you're way off base. You are ignoring the fact that infant males have always died at a higher ratio than infant females. Over thousands of years, that adds up to a significant surplus of males in the CK. Chances are that men are the one who are going to have to accept brother-husbands, anyway.

Someone needs to tell the President....

There are moral teachings, the most relevant for this thread being "thou shalt not commit adultery".[/quote]

But polygamy is not adultery because God has commanded it. The Old Testament sees men taking concubines with God's permission.

God is the final moral authority. If he says something is correct, it is correct. Nephi murdered a man for a book, on God's order! Is murder immoral? A case can be made that murder is immoral according to Christian moral authority. But God commanded Laban's slaughter nonetheless. Does this make God immoral? Or do we reject murder and polygamy because *we* find it distasteful?

As I said, Mormons reject polygamy because it violates a personal ethic. Not because it is a false teaching according to an external religious benchmark.

H.

And as bcspace can testify, polygamy is still official doctrine...

I have to admit I have read nothing by Kierkegaard, but it is a failing I should remedy. The piece you cite sounds like a good place to start.

Thanks for the reference!

--Consiglieri

That is your belief. It isn't one I share.



Polygamy in the OT was a cultural practice which God allowed, He never commanded it and never "gave permission".

Jesus Christ, whom Christian follow as the Perfect Word of God, made it very clear, that marriage is between one man, and one woman.

God is not morally pragmatic.



Yes murder is immoral. It saddens me when I see this put out as an argument. I hope you can pause for a moment and realize what it is you are believing.

Would God want you to believe murder is moral?

Seriously you believe this?



It is an immoral teaching, which is an extremely good indication it doesn't come from God.



Yes, I suppose Mormons would believe Jesus Christ is an external benchmark.

A million Old Testament Israelites can't be wrong.

I suppose if you read every OT story as every word conveying God's will.

Most of us, Christians and Jews, understand many (if not most) of the stories convey the silly failures of humans, including the ever-present idea that one's own will is the will of God, that one's fortunes are the will of God, that one's failures are the will of God, etc. are the will of God.

The stories in the OT convey God's unending mercy in the face of human sin and fraility.

It is ok to stop and think about what a story is conveying. Even, if not especially when, a human character is claiming something is the will of God.

A good question is, "is it the will of God"?

What is the benchmark that would help us form an answer? The ten commandments and for a Christian, Jesus Christ.

Neither condone murder. One condemns it outright, the other tells us the greatest commandment is to love our neighbor, blessed are the meek, etc.

In that light, the Light of Christ, one can see God's mercy in all the OT stories, including all relating to the Israelites.

God allows sin, and can and will use sin for His own purposes, but God will never command sin.

That's a very nice religion you are describing there.

The problem is that you are doing pretty well the same kind of thing that Tobin tries to do for Mormonism: he reads what the the texts actually say, then says "Of course it doesn't mean that. It's childish to take such a simple literal-minded view of scripture".

Unfortunately, scripture does not have obvious fault lines in it of the kind you would need to allow the difficult bits to drop away.

Take for instance the Ten Commandments. You like them, especially the 'thou shalt not kill" bit. OK, Yahweh delivers those to Moses in Exodus 20. But then in Exodus 21 he continues his instructions, which include:



Tough love ...

Now in fact you have no more reason to disbelieve that instruction from Yahweh than you do the previous one. But you have a hot-line to God that tells you he meant the first, but not the second.

Madeleine,

Starting a new post is better than addressing your posts point-by-point because my thoughts are fragmented. Let me state my beliefs - I do not look to any god for mercy, redemption, salvation, morality, or direction. I suspect there is no god, am comfortable knowing I could be wrong, but have no reason to believe a god exists. Most gods I know of are arseholes anyways, including Christian God and Jesus Christ. Religion is an interesting thing to study, but in terms of a way to live one's life, offers little that can't be found inside oneself.

Once, I was Mormon. I believed in Mormon God, and Mormon Jesus, and believed that prophets had conversations with Mormon God and Mormon Jesus. When troubling ethical dilemmas came up, such as Nephi murdering Laban at God's command, I trusted that it must be the will of God, that his ways were higher than my ways, and I must simply accept his ways, for one day all will be revealed. Isaiah 55:8, D&C 101:34-36...

Over time, I discovered that prophets are wrong. Getting into how I came to this conclusion is not salient. What is relevant is that I did not need to compare Mormon teachings to general Christian teachings to determine if they were moral or immoral. I was able to reason things out.

Cherry-picking Mormon doctrines is inconsistent with the religion itself. Moroni 7:12-15 states:

"Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually. But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God. Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil"

D&C 18:34-36 states:

And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it. These words are not of men nor of man, but of me; wherefore, you shall testify they are of me and not of man; For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them; Wherefore, you can testify that you have heard my voice, and know my words.

and D&C 1:38 states:
What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.

The prophets speak with God's voice and authority, as do the canonized works, and both speak good works, enticing men to do good. Yet, when it comes to doctrine that is morally or socially reprehensible, like polygamy or murder, many Mormons want to blame the prophet - he's speaking as a man, he's wrong, he was a pervert who liked boinking lots of women...Yet, when it comes to doctrines that are socially or morally acceptable, such as abstinence from tobacco, the prophet is a hero - what a visionary, what a remarkable display of foresight, how could he have known that unless God told him?

Now, you may argue that murder and polygamy bring about evil works and entice no man to do good, while avoiding tobacco brings about good works, and good health. But, think again. Murdering Laban had an eternal purpose. Read 1 Nephi 4:12-13:

"And it came to pass that the Spirit said unto me again: Slay him, for the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands; Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief."

Murder brought about a good work! Let's look at tobacco. 100 million people (as of 2003) were employed, worldwide, by the tobacco industry. Government revenue from tobacco taxation in the US was $15 billion in 2009, and in Canada, $7 billion in 2009. It could be argued that tobacco consumption brings about a good work and thus, prohibition of tobacco is an evil work.

Once a Mormon rejects one teaching from a prophet, that Mormon is in a bind - she as much as admits one or more of the following:

1. D&C 1:38 is wrong. A prophet does not speak with the voice and authority of God
2. God is wrong and is communicating immoral teachings to his prophet
3. A personal moral code is stronger than a religious moral code
4. Moroni 7:12-15 fails - some things that come from God are immoral

Accepting some doctrines and not others is equivalent to stating that revelation and prophecy, the cogworks of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, do not function as described in scripture and promised by prophets. In fact, it is tantamount to inventing a personal religion.

I'm not defending revelation, prophecy, or LDS scripture. As I've pointed out, I believe these things to be bunkum. My argument is that one who claims belief in God and claims belief in scripture can only pick and choose which doctrines they accept and which they deny if they also accept that they are creating a new, personal religious movement that is no longer Mormon.

It is Mormonish.

H.

How about the allowance of murder? Would you sit by the phone and not dial 911 if the Romans were about ready to nail your son on a cross?

There's the rub. I don't know what God would want me to believe, but he can be observed ordering killings, allowing killings, and doing the killing. Not sure if he wants me to do the same.

H.

We are not gods, and are not gods in training.

Jesus is God. God entered into creation in order to atone for our sins, and to restore what was lost by our first parents, Adam and Eve. We tie our suffering to His...pick up your cross and follow Him.

The suffering and death of Jesus is God's Mercy towards us. No greater love.

How can you not be sure? I'm really astounded by this statement. Have you never in your life read the New Testament? Not one single person, even under life threatening circumstances, is commanded to kill anyone. Quite the opposite.

As Christians, the OT MUST be read in the light of Jesus Christ and His teachings, as He is the Word of God.

Madeline,
Are you going to address my question about Christian polygamy as practiced in Africa?

Yes, I've read the New Testament. In fact, I've read the entire LDS canon a number of times. The LDS canon contains the OT, NT, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine & Covenants, and Book of Mormon. And I can tell you, there is plenty of God-sanctioned killing in the LDS canon.

What do you mean when you say the OT must be read in the light of Jesus Christ? Can you show me how a Christian should read 2 Samuel 6:6-7:

And when they came to Nachon’s threshingfloor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the ark of God, and took hold of it; for the oxen shook it. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for his error; and there he died by the ark of God.

Very interested to know why Jesus Christ (who you claim is God) could justify killing a man for touching a box.

H.

God gives us life and can take it away. God is God, we are not. If you are a believing Christian, then I assume you believe that the same God who has given you life can, and has, commanded you to not take another life.

You are not God, or a god, or a god in training that needs to learn how to act as a creator.