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 Post subject: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:54 am 
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Critics of the LDS Church like to paint it as extreme right wing, and point to its patriarchal structure, lumping the LDS Church in with organizations like the Roman Catholic Church and some evangelical organizations that think the Bible forbids letting women have leadership positions over men. The big question is why can't women hold the LDS priesthood.

LDS youth can go to the temple to do baptisms for the dead. Temple activities that you have to be an adult for were once called, endowment sessions, initiatory work, and temple sealings. Some years back initiatory work was called washings and annointings. It may have been changed back to intiatory work now; I'm not sure.

But I've recently found out that for women doing washings and annointings it wasn't men who performed the washings and annointings; it was other women! So in the temple, women do hold the priesthood, in a way. At least you don't see anything like that in Roman Catholicism, or in the mentioned evangelical churches.

So I guess I object to the right wing label. Joseph Smith was in many ways quite radical, liberally, and some of that has survived to this day in the temple ceremonies.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:13 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
But I've recently found out that for women doing washings and annointings it wasn't men who performed the washings and annointings; it was other women! So in the temple, women do hold the priesthood, in a way. At least you don't see anything like that in Roman Catholicism, or in the mentioned evangelical churches.


You just found that out! Where the hell have you been all these years? There are various explanations the church gives for this authority given to women. It just depends on who you talk to. Nothing in the church is official when it comes to talking about the temple. It's always in flux, ever changing, constantly being revised, shifts, morphs, etc.

Some will tell you that the men aren't holy enough to touch women inbetween the slotted shields that they used to use. Imagine old greasy men with minted breath reaching their hands into veiled slots to give the blessings!

So, they let the women do it. Not because they wanted to but because of neccessity. The women in the temple are simply representing the men who commissioned them to go in there and pronounce the blessings for and behalf of the priesthood men who preside in the temple. The female temple workers are nothing but proxies for the brethren. They hold no priesthood. The only priesthood for women in Mormonism comes in the hereafter when they finally get to become priestesses.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 11:36 am 
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Quote:
lumping the LDS Church in with organizations like the Roman Catholic Church and some evangelical organizations that think the Bible forbids letting women have leadership positions over men.
You need to study the link in my sig before you make a generalization like that.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that women need to either be married or live longing for marriage in order to make it to heaven.

I don't believe that all Mormons are extreme right wing. Howeve, Mormonism is a product of its history. There is a large contingent of the LDS population that is extremely right wing, a product of thier cultural heritage.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:39 pm 
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MCB wrote:

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that women need to either be married or live longing for marriage in order to make it to heaven.



Neither does the mormon church.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:44 pm 
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MCB wrote:

Howeve, Mormonism is a product of its history. There is a large contingent of the LDS population that is extremely right wing, a product of thier cultural heritage.


Not true at all. The lds church is a world wide church. Many Mormons are voting for the french socialist party or other social democratic parties in europe. Mormons also vote for the greens.

However, in the USA, Mormons do tend to go republican but this is mainly do to social issues and the idea of self reliance. And perhaps we can see it as part of the american cultural heritage. Catholics tend to vote democratic in america because they were basically working class back in the day. And that is part of their cultural heritage.

But in europe, catholics had been known to be francoists in spain or christian democrats in italy: in both cases, extreme right or far right.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:13 pm 
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I think the Mormon right wing comes from the Intermountain region of Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, and parts of California. Mormons in those areas are pretty right-wing.

When I put an Obama sign in my front yard in Utah, I started getting Obama fear mongering emails from my EQ presidency. People were sincerely concerned about my welfare. This was, of course, before my public defection from the church. People would bring books to Church written by that guy... Haha, I forgot his name! I've been out of Utah too long! That blonde guy who runs a talk show and married a Mormon woman before he was Mormon "just to have sex with her". What is his name? I'm being lazy...

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:47 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
I think the Mormon right wing comes from the Intermountain region of Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, and parts of California. Mormons in those areas are pretty right-wing.

When I put an Obama sign in my front yard in Utah, I started getting Obama fear mongering emails from my EQ presidency. People were sincerely concerned about my welfare..


I used to get so sick of Elders Quorum being used as a republican sounding board that I took the ultra liberal stance just to piss them off. In fact one brother challenged me to a fight during the quorum because I thought abortion should be legal. I got one good shot at him before the fight was broken up. That was the last time I attended Elders Quorum at my home ward.

In fact when the stake president came with a member of the 70's to encourage me to come back to church and the temple I informed them that I would happily do so when I didn't feel the hatred of the members towards my political affiliation.

The church is so republican that I can't see how a democrat can stomach worshipping with those nutty rock suckers


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:43 pm 
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I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. You are pointing to an instance in which some women have been given what might be seen as "religious authority" over some other women. It doesn't show that the church isn't "right wing" (if by that you mean accepting of social hierarchy).

It also is not unique, or rare in the faiths you are comparing Mormonism with. For example, some Catholic nuns are given religious authority over others ("mother superior", etc.).


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Kevinsim, you have not met bcspace you can't be a good Mormon and be anything but a fear mongering rightwinger.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:51 pm 
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Wilma Fingerdoo wrote:

The church is so republican that I can't see how a democrat can stomach worshipping with those nutty rock suckers


Go Mitt.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:55 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
Critics of the LDS Church like to paint it as extreme right wing, ...


This is not limited just to critics. Some members have expressed right wing political views to the point where these views are considered de rigueur in order for one's membership in the LDS Church to be considered "good".

I can somewhat see the confusion, because Caesar was of "flesh and bone" and that gives the illusion of a celestial being. None of Caesar's legionaries were women.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:35 pm 
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angsty wrote:
It also is not unique, or rare in the faiths you are comparing Mormonism with. For example, some Catholic nuns are given religious authority over others ("mother superior", etc.).

Yes, but do the Catholic nuns perform ordinances?

Women in the temple washing and annointing seems to me to be analogous to priests and deacons passing the sacrament. When the sacrament is passed, women just sit there and let the bread and water come to them. In the temple they have more to do, and there are women officiating in the ordinances they get involved in.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:42 pm 
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3sheets2thewind wrote:
Kevinsim, you have not met bcspace you can't be a good Mormon and be anything but a fear mongering rightwinger.

I've talked with Bcspace. He's just plain wrong. That doesn't mean there aren't other Latter-day Saints like him.

I carpool in to work with a fellow who commented that he had heard that Harry Reid was an inactive Mormon. I told him I found that a little hard to believe; I had heard that he has a home-teaching route that he visits every month, and that sounds pretty active to me.

My carpool companion commented that he didn't know how someone could be a Socialist and still be an active Latter-day Saint. I probably should have pointed out to him that the fact that Reid is a high-ranking Democrat does not make him a Socialist, but instead I just told him that there is room in the LDS Church for people of different political persuasions, even for Harry Reid. In fact the Church had a letter read in Sacrament Meetings a few months back that emphasized the principles in each of the two major political parties are not at odds with the principles of the Gospel. I was glad to hear that.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:48 pm 
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MCB wrote:
The Catholic Church doesn't teach that women need to either be married or live longing for marriage in order to make it to heaven.

I think implying that single LDS women need to long for marriage is a bit of an exaggeration. Single women (like single men) just need to lead mature enough lives that they can handle a marriage opportunity should one arise. Oh, and by the way, men also need to either be married or have that maturity level (and be willing to get married), in order to "make it to heaven."

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 4:57 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
My carpool companion commented that he didn't know how someone could be a Socialist and still be an active Latter-day Saint.


The idea that you cannot be a Saint and also care about the welfare of others, does tend to indicate that this individual has withdrawn from the religious realm and replaced it with a political ideology.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:37 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
Single women (like single men) just need to lead mature enough lives that they can handle a marriage opportunity should one arise. Oh, and by the way, men also need to either be married or have that maturity level (and be willing to get married), in order to "make it to heaven."

And Catholics have the right to decline a marriage opportunity should one arise. An individual might might have a personality type [not deemed an inferiority] which make celibacy a better option. Obsessive-compulsives, for example, can channel those traits for good purposes, but might not want to subject another person to some of the lesser characteristis of that personality type. I, for example, tend to allow myself to be dominated by others-- for that reason, I live a rather reclusive lifestyle. A bad marriage contributed to that decision.

Not everyone fits that mold. Humanity is diverse.

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Yes, but do the Catholic nuns perform ordinances?

If the parish priest is absent, and there is not another one available, a person of either gender can lead a service at which the readings for the day are delivered, and the pre-blessed Sacrament can be distributed [by either gender]

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:39 pm 
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moksha wrote:
The idea that you cannot be a Saint and also care about the welfare of others, does tend to indicate that this individual has withdrawn from the religious realm and replaced it with a political ideology.

Not to mention ignoring large passages from the D&C. Edward Partridge was apparently very dedicated to his calling. And look at what Joseph Smith did to his daughters after he died. :surprised:

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:35 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
angsty wrote:
It also is not unique, or rare in the faiths you are comparing Mormonism with. For example, some Catholic nuns are given religious authority over others ("mother superior", etc.).

Yes, but do the Catholic nuns perform ordinances?

Women in the temple washing and annointing seems to me to be analogous to priests and deacons passing the sacrament. When the sacrament is passed, women just sit there and let the bread and water come to them. In the temple they have more to do, and there are women officiating in the ordinances they get involved in.


I think you are missing substantial points of disanalogy. In your stated case a few women have special dispensation to perform limited ordinance work under the authority of the priesthood. Female ordinance workers only perform ordinances in the temple involving other women. They only do so in a circumstance in which a man performing the ordinance work would likely be thought inappropriate. As I understand it, none of these female ordinance workers actually hold the priesthood. In all other cases, ordinances are performed by men. Any 12 year-old boy who gives the right answers to a bishop's interview will be ordained to actually hold the Aaronic priesthood and serve the men and women of his congregation.

I think you are also overstating the significance of this exception-- it is an exception after all.

Further, it isn't just that women don't hold the priesthood or perform ordinances (with one exception, which you have pointed out). It's the patriarchal structure of authority in which authority is entirely male. Even the auxiliary women's organizations operate under male authority. Pointing out one exceptional circumstance in which women perform ordinance work only for other women, doesn't support a claim that the church is "radical", or "liberal" in this regard. The conservative, right-wing patriarchal structure is still firmly in place-- authority is still almost entirely male.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:09 pm 
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MCB wrote:
If the parish priest is absent, and there is not another one available, a person of either gender can lead a service at which the readings for the day are delivered, and the pre-blessed Sacrament can be distributed [by either gender]

I stand corrected. So basically women in the Roman Catholic Church have the authority of LDS deacons (who pass the sacrament), but not the authority of LDS priests (who bless the sacrament).

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 4:57 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
I stand corrected. So basically women in the Roman Catholic Church have the authority of LDS deacons (who pass the sacrament), but not the authority of LDS priests (who bless the sacrament).

Less sexist than your church. An extraordinary minister of the Eucharist must also be a person whose lifestyle is in conformity with the teachings of the Church.

Given the fragile ego of men, I accept male-only priests in the Catholic Church. I also note that priests of the Catholic Church are generally responsive to criticisms and feedback from women. After all, woment are half of the church.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:31 am 
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MCB wrote:
Less sexist than your church.

How do you come to this conclusion?

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