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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:09 pm 
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Blixa wrote:
Using the larger academic sense of the word, I think "cutting edge research" is incorrect. But with the caveats Aristotle implied, I guess that is what it means.

I suspect that translated it really means "quick retorts to 'criticism' with enough compound/complex sentences and name-dropping to appear learned and thus flatter/satisfy an unscholarly audience."


It probably has reference to subjects of which you have little or no knowledge, such as archeology, comparative religion, myth and folklore, biblical studies, the study of ancient religious texts (Bible, extra-canonical texts (OT pseudepigrapha, NT apocrypha, Christina gnostic texts, the Scrolls etc), and other similar areas of concentration.

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Good scholarly research is good scholarly research and is useful to both secular and believing audiences. I have every hope that what is now emerging as Mormon Studies will be just that.


That's an assumption, an assumption that good research always implies cogent conclusions and an intellectually honest and bias-free approach regarding the subject of the research, as well as what counts as "good research" in a given area. No area of research is free of bias, and the modern academy, within the humanities and social sciences, has been severely corrupted and intellectual compromised by ideological agendas and intellectual faddism.

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Because of the poor state of American education, though, many people are not equipped with a basic historical understanding, nor a very strong set of reading skills, nor much education in conceptual thought (philosophy, critical theory, etc).


Perhaps you meant to say critical thinking? Critical theory is not about the disciplines of conceptual thought (though it requires them) but an ideology, or body of allied ideologies, embedded within academia.

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I can understand why some may fear that the best of Mormon Studies may be inaccessible to the average member. But instead of pandering to that problem, a scholarly Mormon publication could do the church a real service by taking on the very serious task of education, indeed fulfilling the educational mandate that has been present throughout all of Mormon history. It would be a very different kind of publication than what currently exists and a challenging project to bring off. But it would be a very valuable one.


This all, again, depends upon what one means by "education" and what one thinks its purpose is and to what ends it is to be put.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Last edited by Droopy on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Could you also post some excerpts from Greg Smith's 100 page critique of John Dehlin?

Thanks.


I am happy I can't Droopy. No BYU journal should publish a 100 page critique of a member of the LDS Church who has not been disciplined by the Church.

That's simply wrong.

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"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Could you also post some excerpts from Greg Smith's 100 page critique of John Dehlin?

Thanks.


I am happy I can't Droopy. No BYU journal should publish a 100 page critique of a member of the LDS Church who has not been disciplined by the Church.

That's simply wrong.



I'm not going to post that JPG of the white flag again. But its the thought that counts.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
I'm not going to post that JPG of the white flag again. But its the thought that counts.


Hey, Droopy, I can't help the fact that you belong to a rogue element in the Church that has usurped priesthood authority to stand as accusers of members over whom it has no authority.

Yes, you should fly a white flag, since you haven't got a leg to stand on here.

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The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:16 pm 
God
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Quote:
I am happy I can't Droopy. No BYU journal should publish a 100 page critique of a member of the LDS Church who has not been disciplined by the Church.




What about a member of the Church who is in open dissent from many of its teachings and standards, and who has organized an advocacy website who's avowed purpose is to assist others in apostatizing from said Church?

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
What about a member of the Church who is in open dissent from many of its teachings and standards, and who has organized an advocacy website who's avowed purpose is to assist others in apostatizing from said Church?


Droopy, you can lie by omission, but you are still lying. You understand that, right?

And once again, what is your calling? Does it entail accusing John Dehlin before the world? Is that your stewardship, Droopy?

Please explain this to me.

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The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:
I'm not going to post that JPG of the white flag again. But its the thought that counts.


Hey, Droopy, I can't help the fact that you belong to a rogue element in the Church that has usurped priesthood authority to stand as accusers of members over whom they have no authority.

Yes, you should fly a white flag, since you haven't got a leg to stand on here.


No authority? Well, if you mean authority to take any action in any official capacity, you are certainly correct. However, from Deacon, to Teacher, to Priest, to Elder, I took a certain oath and made certain covenants before my Father in Heaven. From Deacon to Elder, I am to:

Warn, expound, exhort, and teach...see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking...to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them...to preach, teach, expound, exhort...

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... ang=eng#45

No authority? Incorrect.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Paul also sets the Saints a requirement that they "be ready always to give an answer to every man" that seeks to know the nature of the gospel - or to criticize, misrepresent, or manipulate its teachings for his own purposes.

And that is what I intend to do.

_________________
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Droopy wrote:
What about a member of the Church who is in open dissent from many of its teachings and standards, and who has organized an advocacy website who's avowed purpose is to assist others in apostatizing from said Church?


Droopy, you can lie by omission, but you are still lying. You understand that, right?


And how am I lying, pray tell?

Quote:
And once again, what is your calling? Does it entail accusing John Dehlin before the world? Is that your stewardship, Droopy?


See above.

Now, as an aside, I should ask you, "What is John Dehlin's calling to advocate for and support apostasy from the Church of Jesus Christ?

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
No authority? Well, if you mean authority to take any action in any official capacity, you are certainly correct. However, from Deacon, to Teacher, to Priest, to Elder, I took a certain oath and made certain covenants before my Father in Heaven. From Deacon to Elder, I am to:

Warn, expound, exhort, and teach...see that there is no iniquity in the church, neither hardness with each other, neither lying, backbiting, nor evil speaking...to watch over the church always, and be with and strengthen them...to preach, teach, expound, exhort...

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... ang=eng#45

No authority? Incorrect.


You have no standing to be the public accuser of a fellow member of the LDS Church Droopy, especially one who does not attend your ward or stake. Get over it. Go home, live your life, and take care of your own business. Until you are living the Gospel 100% yourself, maybe you should take a break from concerning yourself with John Dehlin and the rest of us. We have priesthood leaders. They have their own responsibilities over us. They didn't assign you to accuse John Dehlin and the rest of us of anything.

You can quote scriptures and interpret them any way you like, but you know that you have no standing to run around slandering other members, calling them apostates, and so forth. Just give it a rest. Attend to your own business.

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"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:36 pm 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
Image


lmao!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Paul also sets the Saints a requirement that they "be ready always to give an answer to every man" that seeks to know the nature of the gospel - or to criticize, misrepresent, or manipulate its teachings for his own purposes.

And that is what I intend to do.


Hey, Droopy, whose job is it to interpret scripture in our time? Are you providing the authoritative interpretation of scripture? Or do the apostles and prophets who determine doctrine and policy? What do these prophets and apostles of our day have to say about the authority to correct members of the Church? Do they say anything about any random Joe Bloggs in ward X roving the internet to slander and defame other people, calling them apostates, deceivers, and the like?

I mean, it is one thing for Elder Oaks to get up in General Conference to warn of "other voices," but who are you? And where do you get off trashing your fellow saints as though it were your business?

It isn't your business. John Dehlin has a stake president. John Dehlin has a bishop. They know who he is. They know what he does. They have it covered. Mind your own business.

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The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:46 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
No authority? Incorrect.


Authority you may have sir, but you do not have the proper keys in this regard. Dehlin has said many times that he neither intends to keep folks in the church or to tell them to get out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Quote:
I'm just curious. They asked us to provide examples of ad hominem and/or problematic material in FAIR/FARMS and we gave them dozens of examples.


I'm not so interested in FAIR at the moment as I am in FARMS/NMI. Could you refresh my memory again and provide so ad hominem abuse from Daniel from some of his work at FARMS or NMI?


Re-read the thread that's devoted to this topic. Or you can read "Text and Context," which is DCP's (or "Danial," as you've been calling him) essay-length defense of ad hominem tactics.

Quote:
Could you also post some excerpts from Greg Smith's 100 page critique of John Dehlin?

Thanks.


I might be able to later, actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
And how am I lying, pray tell?


You are lying by saying that John Dehlin advocates apostasy. If there is a problem, I am sure his stake president or bishop will see to the problem. If you would like to complain to them, maybe you should do that. But you presume to accuse John Dehlin of sin in public to just any old person. That is not your place.

The truth is that you are a busybody and a bully. You should mind your own business and leave John Dehlin's spiritual welfare to his priesthood leaders. They undoubtedly know a lot more about John than you do, and they have the Spirit to guide them in their decision making. Or don't you believe that?

I guess God needs Droopy, somewhere out there, to do what the stake president and bishop aren't doing, because God is incapable of taking care of that business through John's own divinely appointed priesthood leaders?

What's your argument here Droopy? How do you fit into the LDS Church's doctrines, procedures, and governance, such that you have a standing to pick out anyone you might hear of, anywhere in the Church, and begin to accuse them on the internet? I always read that the Lord's House is a house of order. I guess you think it is more like a virtual mob on the internet.

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The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


Last edited by Kishkumen on Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Quote:
You have no standing to be the public accuser of a fellow member of the LDS Church Droopy, especially one who does not attend your ward or stake.


You don't understand Church doctrine. Let me help you: I can publicly or otherwise criticize critics of the Church, call their arguments into question, respond to their assertions, call them to repentance, expose them when they are dishonest and and seek to deceive, and defend the Church in any venue in which I find myself, at any time, and under any circumstances. I already showed you those aspects of the oath and covenant of the priesthood that authorize me to act as a disciple and witness of Jesus Christ in all the world.

Then, of course, there is this:

Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life. (Mosiah 18:9)

There. Now you have been further edjumecated.

Quote:
Until you are living the Gospel 100% yourself, maybe you should take a break from concerning yourself with John Dehlin and the rest of us.


Sorry, but I don't have to be living the gospel 100% to magnify and rise to my responsibilities according to the oath and covenant of the priesthood. Even if such were possible (which the Church does not teach that it is, in this life), what is required is a valient, diligent, and comitted striving and struggling, on a continual basis, to live the gospel, and always be in process of repentance and improvement.

It is the way I am facing and the trajectory of my movement, not 100% mastery of all things that is the key. You're sophistry in the name of shielding the obviously fragile flower known as John Delin here is a bit too facile for my taste, and too easy to flush down to its well deserved doom.

Quote:
We have priesthood leaders. They have their own responsibilities over us. They didn't assign you to accuse John Dehlin and the rest of us of anything.


They don't have to. I am a disciple of Christ, a holder of his priesthood, and a witness and defender of Him and his Church at all times, and in all places, according to my covenants.

Frightening, isn't it?

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Cicero wrote:
Droopy wrote:
No authority? Incorrect.


Authority you may have sir, but you do not have the proper keys in this regard. Dehlin has said many times that he neither intends to keep folks in the church or to tell them to get out of it.



He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:59 pm 
Seedy Academician
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Droopy wrote:
You don't understand Church doctrine. Let me help you: I can publically or otherwise criticise, call to repentance, and defend the Church in any venue in which I find myself, at any time, and under any circumstances. I already showed you those aspects of the oath and covenant of the priesthood that authorize me to act as a disciple and witness of Jesus Christ in all the world.


No, Droopy. You don't understand Church government as laid out in the scriptures and upheld by the apostles and prophets in our time. No one has authorized any member in any place at any time to be an Accuser at Large for the Church in the world. Instead, there is an order to the government of the Church in which those who hold the keys and have the stewardship make those calls, not "some guy" in the South with an internet connection and an axe to grind.

Have you received a calling to accuse people online? Were you set apart by your priesthood leaders to do this? Is it your place to decide that John Dehlin's stake president and bishop are inadequate to the task of seeing to his repentance process? Do they not have the Holy Spirit to guide them in making these calls?

How about this, Droopy? What would you think if someone were to hire private detectives to watch people and see if they were not living the Gospel, and then run a service that published their sins before the world, so that they could make sure they were calling them to repentance in accordance with your interpretation of scripture? Maybe they could start with you?

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"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Text and Context is not a defense of ad hominem attacks in scholarly literature, but a critique of Metcalf's New Approaches to the Book of Mormon.

Re-read what thread? Could you post a link please?

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:04 pm 
Seedy Academician
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Droopy wrote:
He has been quite clear and unequivocal that the core mission of Mormon Stories is to assist members of the Church in leaving it and to make their transition out of the Church as emotionally and psychologically comfortable as possible.


That is a bald faced lie, Droopy. He is not advocating that people leave the Church, but he is there for those who have made that decision for themselves. And, if you and your friends thought about it for a moment, or really did care for anything other than your own egos, you would realize that it is probably better for the Church to have someone out there helping them be less bitter on their way out so that they don't haunt the internet as virulent anti-Mormons ever after.

If only you guys had a little imagination.

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The Electronic Journal of Jaredite Studies
The Definitive Electronic Jaredite Bibliography

"I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser." ~Brigham Young


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Edge Research?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:10 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Paul also sets the Saints a requirement that they "be ready always to give an answer to every man" that seeks to know the nature of the gospel - or to criticize, misrepresent, or manipulate its teachings for his own purposes.

And that is what I intend to do.


Image

go get em!!! Not one poster on this board can see how this could backfire.


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