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 Post subject: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:27 pm 
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It is pretty much set that Dan Peterson and the stalwarts of Mopologetics have been out maneuvered, and their stock in NAMIRS is rapidly falling. The end of a rather nasty era is coming to a close, and I think the field Mormon Studies as a whole will be the better for it.

In one sense, a battle against poor scholarship and piss poor n’ petty screeds masquerading as “reviews” has been won. The war DCP, Hamblin, and Midge wage is far from over, and in the case of this trio, even a snapping turtle on its back can still deliver a nasty bite. One era is drawing to a close, but another is just beginning. What can we expect to see? I’ve decided to go out on a limb and make a public prediction.

Once Dan’s massive ego is triaged, treated, and back on four legs, DCP and company will immediately embrace their “marginalized” status, and quickly forget their long time claim of being some kind of scholarly establishment. They’ll utilize their new position on the fringe to quickly construct a narrative of wildly independent, antiestablishment scholars who don’t give a damn about going against the grain. I think we’ve seen the stage-setting for this in DCP’s recent close relationship with Willard Schryver, who more could find common cause than the sloppy academic frustrated that the world doesn’t recognize his brilliance and the long haired autodidact who would bleed to be validated by anyone with some letters after their name?

The first move will to establish a rally point for the disaffected, and I predict that point will be a group blog, with the list of contributors made up from the old guard of mopologetics. My guess is that the group will try to present themselves as the latest incarnation of the “Swearing Elders” but with an orthodox spin. There will be an out pouring of tortured masturbatory essays pretending to be blog posts about how the “Academe” has fallen from grace, mired in “postmodern relativism” and “political correctness”. These winsome rogue scholars will tell it as it is, preaching to a crowd of middle aged and sagging white male flesh.

To their eyes, they will be putting out hard hitting and insightful analysis of the New Babylon and heralding the End of Days with appeals to the good ol’ times, when scholars cared about scholarship and you could smear fellow Mormons in print without repercussions. To the rest of us, it will be the same shallow polemics to be mocked and all it will garner is a sea knowing nods of Mormon armchair theologians on the cusp of type 2 diabetes who still actively post at MD&D.

I think this will be the new phase of mopologetics, a small faction of unfortunates fighting hard for the respect they feel they earned on the front lines of “Anti-Mormonism”. The typical arrogance will still be there, but it will be flavored heavily with a new found bitterness.

Thoughts? Am I way off on this?

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:31 pm 
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I think you are a prophet, Mr. Stak, though I personally would hold off on making any solid predictions at this juncture. I don't think that all the debris has fully settled yet. I think, further, that we'll have to wait for an actual job opening announcement from Bradford, among other things. In short: I'm not certain that this "civil war" is over yet. It may yet drag on for the remainder of the year.

If things do wind up working out entirely in Bradford's and The New Guard's favor, however, then I think you're likely correct.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:37 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
...Am I way off on this?


I'd guess that you're underestimating the reach and the influence
of The Brethren, during a period in which they are determined to make
their church look as much like the Baptists and Assembly of God as
possible -- to the ill-informed outside observer.

After the 2012 election the traditionalists may recover some polemical
ground, and may well venture forth as journalistic Danites. But not
quite yet.

Bigger fish must first of all be fried.

UD

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:45 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
It is pretty much set that Dan Peterson and the stalwarts of Mopologetics have been out maneuvered, and their stock in NAMIRS is rapidly falling. The end of a rather nasty era is coming to a close, and I think the field Mormon Studies as a whole will be the better for it.

In one sense, a battle against poor scholarship and piss poor n’ petty screeds masquerading as “reviews” has been won. The war DCP, Hamblin, and Midge wage is far from over, and in the case of this trio, even a snapping turtle on its back can still deliver a nasty bite. One era is drawing to a close, but another is just beginning. What can we expect to see? I’ve decided to go out on a limb and make a public prediction.

Once Dan’s massive ego is triaged, treated, and back on four legs, DCP and company will immediately embrace their “marginalized” status, and quickly forget their long time claim of being some kind of scholarly establishment. They’ll utilize their new position on the fringe to quickly construct a narrative of wildly independent, antiestablishment scholars who don’t give a damn about going against the grain. I think we’ve seen the stage-setting for this in DCP’s recent close relationship with Willard Schryver, who more could find common cause than the sloppy academic frustrated that the world doesn’t recognize his brilliance and the long haired autodidact who would bleed to be validated by anyone with some letters after their name?

The first move will to establish a rally point for the disaffected, and I predict that point will be a group blog, with the list of contributors made up from the old guard of mopologetics. My guess is that the group will try to present themselves as the latest incarnation of the “Swearing Elders” but with an orthodox spin. There will be an out pouring of tortured masturbatory essays pretending to be blog posts about how the “Academe” has fallen from grace, mired in “postmodern relativism” and “political correctness”. These winsome rogue scholars will tell it as it is, preaching to a crowd of middle aged and sagging white male flesh.

To their eyes, they will be putting out hard hitting and insightful analysis of the New Babylon and heralding the End of Days with appeals to the good ol’ times, when scholars cared about scholarship and you could smear fellow Mormons in print without repercussions. To the rest of us, it will be the same shallow polemics to be mocked and all it will garner is a sea knowing nods of Mormon armchair theologians on the cusp of type 2 diabetes who still actively post at MD&D.

I think this will be the new phase of mopologetics, a small faction of unfortunates fighting hard for the respect they feel they earned on the front lines of “Anti-Mormonism”. The typical arrogance will still be there, but it will be flavored heavily with a new found bitterness.

Thoughts? Am I way off on this?


Me thinks you fear to have lost the mousee and you want too much to have it back in paw.
More likely their testicles retract to double lumps in their throats shadowed under a zombie stare, numbness head to foot. But I am not predicting it. Hoping more for it. Oh yeah.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:13 am 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
I think this will be the new phase of mopologetics, a small faction of unfortunates fighting hard for the respect they feel they earned on the front lines of “Anti-Mormonism”. The typical arrogance will still be there, but it will be flavored heavily with a new found bitterness.

Thoughts? Am I way off on this?


I think it's spot on, except for the "bitterness" part. The Jews at Masada come to mind, but even more so, the Great Apostasy, and the emergence of those who speak "smooth things" to the faithful, so that the Kingdom of Christ is indistinguishable from local charities, so to speak. This "bitter group" will actually be a lasting remnant of both Joseph Smith's and the Book of Mormon's vision for the latter days:

Quote:
2 But behold, there are many that harden their hearts against the Holy Spirit, that it hath no place in them; wherefore, they cast many things away which are written and esteem them as things of naught.
3 But I, Nephi, have written what I have written, and I esteem it as of great worth, and especially unto my people. For I pray continually for them by day, and mine eyes water my pillow by night, because of them; and I cry unto my God in faith, and I know that he will hear my cry.
4 And I know that the Lord God will consecrate my prayers for the gain of my people. And the words which I have written in weakness will be made strong unto them; for it persuadeth them to do good; it maketh known unto them of their fathers; and it speaketh of Jesus, and persuadeth them to believe in him, and to endure to the end, which is life eternal.
5 And it speaketh harshly against sin, according to the plainness of the truth; wherefore, no man will be angry at the words which I have written save he shall be of the spirit of the devil.
6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.
7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.
8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.
9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.
10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.
11 And if they are not the words of Christ, judge ye—for Christ will show unto you, with power and great glory, that they are his words, at the last day; and you and I shall stand face to face before his bar; and ye shall know that I have been commanded of him to write these things, notwithstanding my weakness.
12 And I pray the Father in the name of Christ that many of us, if not all, may be saved in his kingdom at that great and last day.
13 And now, my beloved brethren, all those who are of the house of Israel, and all ye ends of the earth, I speak unto you as the voice of one crying from the dust: Farewell until that great day shall come.
14 And you that will not partake of the goodness of God, and respect the words of the Jews, and also my words, and the words which shall proceed forth out of the mouth of the Lamb of God, behold, I bid you an everlasting farewell, for these words shall condemn you at the last day.
15 For what I seal on earth, shall be brought against you at the judgment bar; for thus hath the Lord commanded me, and I must obey. Amen. (2 ne.33)


However, those in the Great and Spacious Building, will temporarily prevail against the prophets, whom they killed in ancient times. Their descendants still exist today, and they will not rest until they can prove all the prophesies in the Book of Mormon to be false, and the effect of a "frenzied mind".

And it will start here, on "discussion boards" like this, until it consumes the whole earth in unbelief, not only in Mormonism, but in God himself.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:37 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
However, those in the Great and Spacious Building, will temporarily prevail against the prophets, whom they killed in ancient times. Their descendants still exist today, and they will not rest until they can prove all the prophesies in the Book of Mormon to be false, and the effect of a "frenzied mind".

And it will start here, on "discussion boards" like this, until it consumes the whole earth in unbelief, not only in Mormonism, but in God himself.


:rolleyes:

Give it a rest. You've lost your mind.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:43 am 
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That's a persuasive prophecy, Stak. I concur with the Good Doctor and Uncle Dale in advising caution, however. Dr. Peterson is a man with valuable contacts and resources. You can expect this battle for the soul of MI to continue, and we may yet witness a stunning reversal in which the director is tossed out and replaced by none other than Daniel himself!

Not only does Dr. Peterson have apostolic ears he can bend, but, perhaps more importantly, he also has well heeled friends who can withhold crucial contributions from BYU, the MI, and the Church, if they don't get their way. Money talks. If Daniel were to promise to refrain from further untimely attacks until the Romney has secured the presidency, he may have surprising resources at his disposal to recover his position.

I am hopeful that my single desire--the end of attacks on fellow Mormons published on BYU campus--may hold, but nothing is absolutely certain yet. Ira Fulton, for example, may stipulate that attacks against "nothing persons" continue in order for him to pay up. So, indeed, one must adopt a wait and see attitude here. Still, great prediction overall. I think the language is harsh, but the substance is all there.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:53 am 
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In short, I believe that the potential PR liability of the Review as it was constituted was the most important underlying factor in this stunning change. If Dr. Peterson were to show that he understood the value of keeping a low profile until after the election, he might bounce back and better than recoup his losses.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:25 am 
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To the esteemed Dr. Scratch, legendary Uncle Dale, and the eminent and most holy Reverend Kishkumen:

Thank you kindly for the warnings of caution, I have taken them into consideration. I think this is one of those times when you actually hope to be wrong, but the spirit of Sidney Rigdon has come upon me and brought about a quickening of inspiration that I felt compelled by every fiber of my being to shout from the mountain, so to speak.

One of the strongest factors against Dan coming out on top of this, is that his ego is uncompromising. Important e-mails were leaked and became a matter of public record, discussed at length by the renowned minds of Cassius University, the first shot has been fired and there is no stopping the battle, despite diplomatic efforts and back door groveling.

I’m of the opinion that Mopologists play a zero sum game, every hill is worth dying for, and you can’t give The Adversary the satisfaction.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:36 am 
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Nightlion wrote:
Me thinks you fear to have lost the mousee and you want too much to have it back in paw. More likely their testicles retract to double lumps in their throats shadowed under a zombie stare, numbness head to foot. But I am not predicting it. Hoping more for it. Oh yeah.


You speak in riddles...

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:57 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
In short, I believe that the potential PR liability of the Review as it was constituted was the most important underlying factor in this stunning change. If Dr. Peterson were to show that he understood the value of keeping a low profile until after the election, he might bounce back and better than recoup his losses.


But what if Romney wins? Another four years of keeping a low profile? I don't think he can hold his breath that long.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:59 am 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
Nightlion wrote:
Me thinks you fear to have lost the mousee and you want too much to have it back in paw. More likely their testicles retract to double lumps in their throats shadowed under a zombie stare, numbness head to foot. But I am not predicting it. Hoping more for it. Oh yeah.


You speak in riddles...


Beg pardon your dollopness.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:07 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I concur with the Good Doctor and Uncle Dale in advising caution, however. Dr. Peterson is a man with valuable contacts and resources. You can expect this battle for the soul of MI to continue, and we may yet witness a stunning reversal in which the director is tossed out and replaced by none other than Daniel himself!

I, too, concur -- I wouldn't count Dan 'down and out' just yet. His email to Bradford shows that he is not willing to go quietly. I think he's too in love with his Mormon celebrity to do that. He's been remarkably quiet since Bradford's email of nearly a week ago (and he's been writing a daily post on his blog as if nothing has happened). I think he's laying low, at least until he gets back to Utah, and is coming up with a plan to stop Bradford (and probably contacting his GA and apologist buddies to feel them out as well as garner support).

Quote:
Not only does Dr. Peterson have apostolic ears he can bend, but, perhaps more importantly, he also has well heeled friends who can withhold crucial contributions from BYU, the MI, and the Church, if they don't get their way. Money talks. If Daniel were to promise to refrain from further untimely attacks until the Romney has secured the presidency, he may have surprising resources at his disposal to recover his position.

Money is a huge deal in the LDS Church (it seems like every substantive change in doctrine or policy over the past century has been triggered by the fear of losing money or property), and DCP is probably one of the best for getting big donations to the MI and related groups. So he has that ace up his sleeve.

Even if DCP comes out of his on top, I think the Review and his apologist activities have changed forever. If Dan survives this, he (as well as Midgley and others of his ilk) know they will have to tone down the vitriol and personal attacks and focus on scholarship. That alone would be a welcome change, and some of the real damage they've been doing to doubting (but otherwise faithful) Mormons over these many years, hopefully will stop. And for this, thanks be to John Dehlin (who, I think, really brought this to a head) and to our very own Dr. Scratch.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:20 am 
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harmony wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
In short, I believe that the potential PR liability of the Review as it was constituted was the most important underlying factor in this stunning change. If Dr. Peterson were to show that he understood the value of keeping a low profile until after the election, he might bounce back and better than recoup his losses.


But what if Romney wins? Another four years of keeping a low profile? I don't think he can hold his breath that long.

What if Romney loses and wants to run again in 4 years? The DCP will never be able to take another breath before he dies.

I'm still predicting senior missions, maybe running the BYU center in Jerusalem, temple presidents in Ghana or the South Pacific, long-term research project on Moslem texts in Pakistan.

The morg could break that crew down real well if it wants.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:28 am 
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The coming conflict promises to be very edifying.

Image

I can't wait. Maybe they will do a series?

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:36 am 
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Now in retrospect, I wonder how long DCP has known this dismissal was coming. I know this is a thread about prognosticating the future, but perhaps the past reveals something to inform us.

DCP seemed to have renewed vigor for about 6 months after he established MST. There was even a renaissance of his posting here that began during that time. Then he settled back into the rut from before. Not only did he stop posting, but he sent in his 'resignation letter'. He had Dr Shades de-activate his account here. He's slowly been tiring online.

Just as sending in a resignation letter to the LDS Church marks a formal departure, a clean break for the apostate, asking Dr Shades to de-activate your account here is likewise signifying of where the poster is.

The recent developments make me wonder if MST was an effort by DCP to shore up his TBM bona fides with the Brethren and other powers that be?

Alternative speculation: will DCP yet be involved in MST, or is it a stealth appendage of LDS Church/BYU/NAMIRS?

Was DCP told, as a near last warning, that he had to curtail message boarding on Mormonism? Is that why he asked for his account here at MDB to be de-activated?

Was his blog, with no one else being given the ability to respond, something DCP in his hairsplitting style thought was within a limitation imposed by uppers in the hierarchy?

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:35 am 
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Rollo Tomasi wrote:
I think he's laying low, at least until he gets back to Utah, and is coming up with a plan to stop Bradford (and probably contacting his GA and apologist buddies to feel them out as well as garner support).


Agreed.

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Even if DCP comes out of his on top, I think the Review and his apologist activities have changed forever. If Dan survives this, he (as well as Midgley and others of his ilk) know they will have to tone down the vitriol and personal attacks and focus on scholarship. That alone would be a welcome change, and some of the real damage they've been doing to doubting (but otherwise faithful) Mormons over these many years, hopefully will stop.


I remain hopeful that what you say here is true. I would prefer it to be true with Daniel Peterson at the helm, but I would like the outcome to include this new approach that excludes slamming members from BYU campus in any case.

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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:57 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I remain hopeful that what you say here is true. I would prefer it to be true with Daniel Peterson at the helm, but I would like the outcome to include this new approach that excludes slamming members from BYU campus in any case.


I don't see how it could be true with Dr. Peterson at the helm. His email to Bradford confirms what his posting style has said for years. He is a warrior and giving any ground to critics in any way is not to be tolerated.

His blog post that you mentioned on the confirmation thread I think shows where he would take the MI if given the helm.

Quote:
There’s no reason for us to like diseases, financial setbacks, wars, betrayals by friends, interpersonal hostilities, misunderstandings, physical injuries, injustice, unmerited humiliations, and the like. It must needs be that offenses come, but woe unto him by whom those offenses come. They hurt. They’re painful. And their costs are, many times, very high and quite permanent. However, they do serve to school us, to train us, to smooth and polish us (as Joseph said of the persecutions that afflicted him throughout his life) as we, stone-like, roll down the hills of our lives.


Given what sparked this, I don't believe for a second he is being introspective about his own offenses to others. Rather, he sees himself as Joseph Smith betrayed by his friends and they will get theirs whether in this life or the next.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:26 am 
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Stak, I commend your prediction to all faculty of Cassius university. I have a complementary prediction which I will soon write about.

I'm sure you'll understand that as the Egbert Bratt Grandin chair of Textual Criticism at Cassius I am very busy curating a marvelous new parable I have uncovered. I have posted an initial recension of the text, but I still have a lot of work to do collating textual variants in some poorly preserved copies.


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:12 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
The recent developments make me wonder if MST was an effort by DCP to shore up his TBM bona fides with the Brethren and other powers that be?

I thought that, too, but Dan's recent and very public friendship with Schryver makes me question this, because Schryver is considered a loose cannon in TBM circles. DCP's rogue-like behavior in recent months makes me think he just lost it because he saw 'the writing on the wall' when it came to NAMIRS.

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-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)


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 Post subject: Re: The future of Mopologetics? A new prediction.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 11:14 am 
Anti-Mormon

Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:32 pm
Posts: 4659
Location: In the Politburo
Thank you Professor Smith and Sock Puppet.

To buttress my interpretation of events, consider this chunk of text from Braford:

Quote:
I remain convinced that the time has come for us to take the Review in a different direction, along the lines of the prospectus I gave you. But I now realize it was wrong of me to ask you to accept and execute my editorial vision in place of your own. I value you as an academic colleague and I respect your right to pursue the research and publication projects you find inspiring and valuable. I will continue to support you in this regard. But what we need to do to properly affect this change in the Review is to ask someone else, someone working in the mainstream of Mormon studies, who has a comparable vision to my own for what it can accomplish, to edit the publication and devote whatever time it takes to make this happen. I plan to begin the process of finding a new editor right away. At the same time, I would welcome your continued involvement as a member of its soon-to-be-formed editorial advisory board. I believe you will continue to find much in it to commend, and it will be a better publication for your involvement.


It could be argued that this is Mormon doublespeak that pervades Mormonism, Utah and BYU culture, a “killing him with kindness” tactic that many here are familiar with. I would dispute this on grounds of DCP’s response here:

Quote:
I realize now, too, that you've been plotting this for some time, and that, naïve fool that I am, I didn't even realize that I was playing chess before I had been checkmated.

There is nothing you can do to prevent this from being an absolutely spectacular propaganda triumph for those who oppose the Institute and despise me, so don't bother trying. As a matter of fact -- since the Institute leaks like a sieve -- I had already read today (on an apostate message board) that there was soon to be a shake-up in the editorial leadership of the Review. They know about it, and they're going to feast on this for years to come.

The timing of my dismissal, coming immediately after my public crucifixion over the John Dehlin debacle, guarantees that it will be read as an institutional rebuke of me and all


Dan knows the ins-and-outs of Mormon culture, he has played the game long enough at BYU to read between the lines. What we read above is not the measured response of a canny silverback, but a man-child stomping his feet on the ground. Dan can’t play editor by his own rules? FINE! He’ll just take all his balls and go home. Look at the language he uses in describing himself:

Quote:
The timing of my dismissal, coming immediately after my public crucifixion over the John Dehlin debacle, guarantees that it will be read as an institutional rebuke of me and all


When I joke about helping Dan get up on the cross, it is very apt, because that is exactly how he sees himself, a persecuted righteous holy man doing the Lord’s will. This is not the kind of guy that sits down to perform introspection, this is a prima donna:

Merriam-Webster wrote:
1: a principal female singer in an opera or concert organization


2: a vain or undisciplined person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team


Compromise does not exist in this dojo, DOES IT!?!!?!

Mopologetics never dies.

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- Colacho in Escolios a un Texto Implícito, page 381
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