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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:25 am 
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harmony wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Another thing I meant to mention: My Malevolent Stalker, who apparently broke this story, has usually been spectacularly wrong in his "intel." Some of it has been outright laughable. I think he has varying sources. One of them, I happen to know (though I don't know who s/he is), has been planting false but delicious stories with the Stalker, of the kind that the Stalker is known to love. He wolfs them down ravenously. This story, though, is more or less accurate -- though the spin that's being put upon it ranges from in the ballpark to completely absurd.


Right again. All the rest of them were wrong, except this one, which is more or less right. Like all the rest of them matter, after this one?

As much egocentricity, self-delusion and/or being clueless as it would take, I think DCP believes this. Sort of the same ostrich-in-the-sand act that he pulls off to continue to believe in Mormonism despite all the problems of which he is aware, only here believing his own Mormon apologetic press.

Dan, wake up! You've been cooking your own goose for years. There has been sieve-like leaking at NAMIRS, and Dr Scratch's informants have established a heck of a track record. But if you need to keep up the delusion that Dr Scratch has been toyed with, do it if that helps you sleep at nights.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:27 am 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
None dare call it conspiracy...

Whether or not Dehlin will be excommunicated anytime soon is less important to me than the fact that his true identity and purposes have been greatly illuminated over the course of the past several weeks.  

Hopefully, the powers that be will connect Dehlin's purposes with those of the people who have worked to effect the coup d'état at the Maxwell Institute, and move to thwart them before it is too late.


LOL!!!

OK. Yes, we know that the evil John Dehlin, upon finding that a witch hunt was being conducted against him by a small cadre of ideologues at the Maxwell Institute, appealed to one of the Lord's anointed to help him out--surely the tactic of an apostate turncoat. And the reaction of the "real Mormons" like Schryver was to accuse everyone who disagreed with him and his anti-Dehlin buddies "apostates" (apostle included?). And this nonsense continues in the words of Scott Loyd on MDDB.

What an embarrassing display of obstinacy, obtuseness, and delusional thinking.

Is Will anticipating the excommunication of an apostle over this?

Stunning.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:39 am 
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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:40 am 
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sock puppet wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
Another thing I meant to mention: My Malevolent Stalker, who apparently broke this story, has usually been spectacularly wrong in his "intel." Some of it has been outright laughable. I think he has varying sources. One of them, I happen to know (though I don't know who s/he is), has been planting false but delicious stories with the Stalker, of the kind that the Stalker is known to love. He wolfs them down ravenously. This story, though, is more or less accurate -- though the spin that's being put upon it ranges from in the ballpark to completely absurd.



As much egocentricity, self-delusion and/or being clueless as it would take, I think DCP believes this. Sort of the same ostrich-in-the-sand act that he pulls off to continue to believe in Mormonism despite all the problems of which he is aware, only here believing his own Mormon apologetic press.

Dan, wake up! You've been cooking your own goose for years. There has been sieve-like leaking at NAMIRS, and Dr Scratch's informants have established a heck of a track record. But if you need to keep up the delusion that Dr Scratch has been toyed with, do it if that helps you sleep at nights.


Yeah, I don't understand his remarks. Does the MI "leak like a sieve," or is this pretty much the only piece of intel that's ever been correct?

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:42 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:

Whether or not Dehlin will be excommunicated anytime soon is less important to me than the fact that his true identity and purposes have been greatly illuminated over the course of the past several weeks.  

Hopefully, the powers that be will connect Dehlin's purposes with those of the people who have worked to effect the coup d'état at the Maxwell Institute, and move to thwart them before it is too late.


LOL!!!

OK. Yes, we know that the evil John Dehlin, upon finding that a witch hunt was being conducted against him by a small cadre of ideologues at the Maxwell Institute, appealed to one of the Lord's anointed to help him out--surely the tactic of an apostate turncoat. And the reaction of the "real Mormons" like Schryver was to accuse everyone who disagreed with him and his anti-Dehlin buddies "apostates" (apostle included?). And this nonsense continues in the words of Scott Loyd on MDDB.

What an embarrassing display of obstinacy, obtuseness, and delusional thinking.

Is Will anticipating the excommunication of an apostle over this?

Stunning.


Game of Thrones, it's not. "Thwarting coups d'état" is the language of fantasy fiction.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:45 am 
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Blixa wrote:
Game of Thrones, it's not. "Thwarting coups d'état" is the language of fantasy fiction.


Although if someone can hang the moniker "Littlefinger" on an apologist I'll give them a cookie. Bradford apparently has already claimed "King Slayer".

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:46 am 
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Also, I don't believe for a second that they're not whining to the General Authorities. I'd be willing to bet that that was their first move: to phone up the members of whatever "faction" is most sympathetic to what they've been doing for the past 30 years.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:50 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Much better. Thank you. By no means a confirmation of the emails, but now I think we can say analogously that they are like the 110 pages. The anti Mormons have something, but we can't be sure they are accurately presented.

So strange that bcspace has disappeared entirely after DCP confirmed the veracity of the emails. Hey, bc, what say ye? Are you going to keep playing the equivalent of a Birther and deny that Scartch got it right here? Or do you think DCP and Hamblin are lying?

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:55 am 
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Blixa wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
LOL!!!

OK. Yes, we know that the evil John Dehlin, upon finding that a witch hunt was being conducted against him by a small cadre of ideologues at the Maxwell Institute, appealed to one of the Lord's anointed to help him out--surely the tactic of an apostate turncoat. And the reaction of the "real Mormons" like Schryver was to accuse everyone who disagreed with him and his anti-Dehlin buddies "apostates" (apostle included?). And this nonsense continues in the words of Scott Loyd on MDDB.

What an embarrassing display of obstinacy, obtuseness, and delusional thinking.

Is Will anticipating the excommunication of an apostle over this?

Stunning.

Game of Thrones, it's not. "Thwarting coups d'état" is the language of fantasy fiction.

Some of these guys are clearly trying to live out their own (pre)apocalyptic fantasy. Winter is coming.

(They must be so bored.)

-JV


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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:58 am 
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Cylon wrote:
Here's one particularly eloquent voice of reason from the other board:

David T wrote:
My thoughts:

I think the way some of this has been handled was unfortunate. I do sincerely wish Dan Peterson the best in his life, and in his pursuits.

However, I see Bradford's desires and intents for the MI, as I've seen them expressed, to be a good ones. The inherent problem with much of the MI/FARMS apologetics is that generally a particular view, or interpretation, or ideology is what is being defended, not simply THE CHURCH, or even its core doctrines and principles. This does lead to alienation of those who do have a desire to see the Church defended, but not differing interprative wings thereof.

I think the absolute best thing being done and the example to set is the work being done by the Church Historian's Press - amazing, groundbreaking documentary editing and textual/contextual notes without being defensive, or trying to justify anything. This is how things are, let the cards be laid out.

The same problem with FARM/MI apologetics was very much the same as was presented in CES course materials - one very specific way of understanding Mormonism and its scriptures was being promulgated and defended, while other very valid and allowable-by-the-current-revelations-and-leadership views we, by omission, marginalized.

I've been a subscriber to MI publications, and have let my subscription to most of them lapse, mainly because of frustration with declarations as fact elements that are not necessary aspects of Mormonism guiding and permeating several of the papers, and their conclusions. (The second issue of Studies of the Bible and Antiquity greatly turned me off of this publication for these very reasons, which I was otherwise quite excited to see begin.)

I think by the way the Church has been handling its newest curriculum (such as the latest Gospel Principles revision), we are seeing an attempt to weed out former speculative assumptions and expositions that had become dogmatic. There's a lot of weeds.

What's fascinating is that the latest Gospel Principles did not narrow the breadth of official interpretive possibilities, but rather quite fascinatingly and subtly widened it.

I feel a continued emphases for the MI on pumping out documents, history, and critiquing history on a scholastic (not dogmatic) level will do far more for the Church in the long run. This way, they will presenting what we know, not just theories and defenses that will need to be disavowed or stepped away from when further information comes to light.

The openness of the Church will be far more faith promoting and confidence-building than constant attempts at damage control of things that, it turns out, don't often really need to, or should be, defended.

The Joseph Smith Papers and the current Church History Department is doing it right. It would be great to see the MI publications continue in the future to follow in this example.


Spot on, David T.


Translation: Mormon apologetics will now rely entirely on, "That's not official doctrine!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:14 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Does the MI "leak like a sieve," or is this pretty much the only piece of intel that's ever been correct?


A really old and mostly clogged sieve?

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Blixa wrote:
Game of Thrones, it's not. "Thwarting coups d'état" is the language of fantasy fiction.


Oh, I am sure a certain fellow imagines his life to be a drama of this epic scale.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Also, I don't believe for a second that they're not whining to the General Authorities. I'd be willing to bet that that was their first move: to phone up the members of whatever "faction" is most sympathetic to what they've been doing for the past 30 years.


Yup. You can bank on that. There were 18 other recipients of DCP's email to Bradford. You better believe this struggle will involve GAs.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:21 pm 
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You folks can joke all you want but according to Will, Scott Lloyd, Hamblin and others this could be the beginning of a well prophesied apostasy. This leaves Will et al. to do what it takes to conquer darkness. At this very moment Will is likely reading about Ammon slicing off arms and sitting outside a Maggie Moos.


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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Also, I don't believe for a second that they're not whining to the General Authorities. I'd be willing to bet that that was their first move: to phone up the members of whatever "faction" is most sympathetic to what they've been doing for the past 30 years.


Yup. You can bank on that. There were 18 other recipients of DCP's email to Bradford. You better believe this struggle will involve GAs.


Goody goody gumdrops! I love a good scandal in the Mormon church just in time for the presidential election! Just think about how many people will become unbaptized due to the life long efforts of DCP going down the drain.

Dan, you've been had! You've been fooled all this time! The leak is on you!

Someone call a plumber!

:lol:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:28 pm 
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lostindc wrote:
You folks can joke all you want but according to Will, Scott Lloyd, Hamblin and others this could be the beginning of a well prophesied apostasy. This leaves Will et al. to do what it takes to conquer darkness. At this very moment Will is likely reading about Ammon slicing off arms and sitting outside a Maggie Moos.


LOL. All they are doing is confirming my theory about the Church of Schryverology over at MDDB. Their clique is living in their own apocalyptic fantasy that is completely out of touch with the rest of the world. They hope that someone higher up buys into their noxious fairytale.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:32 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Goody goody gumdrops! I love a good scandal in the Mormon church just in time for the presidential election!


This will be about as big as a scandal as the mystery of who left a deuce in the urinal when I was in 3rd grade. It stinks for those who have to clean it up, but outside a room full of children nobody will ever hear of it.

You are all giving Dan and the MSR way too much credit.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:45 pm 
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the narrator wrote:
Shulem wrote:
Goody goody gumdrops! I love a good scandal in the Mormon church just in time for the presidential election!


This will be about as big as a scandal as the mystery of who left a deuce in the urinal when I was in 3rd grade. It stinks for those who have to clean it up, but outside a room full of children nobody will ever hear of it.

You are all giving Dan and the MSR way too much credit.


Probably true. And we can only hope.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Hey narrator (Good to read you! Hope all is well with you and yours :smile: )
the narrator wrote:

This will be about as big as a scandal as the mystery of who left a deuce in the urinal when I was in 3rd grade.


I always knew something didn't feel quite right about that whole experience! (And I often wondered why there was no TP available at that location?)

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:58 pm 
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Now that this is all old news, the big question for me is whether or not the type of scholarship work that Bradford envisions for the MI is even possible at BYU. While the fan-boys and girls at the MAD board may be seeing this as a sign of the 2nd coming, they, luckily, are far detached from BYU, scholarship, and reality. From my experience, there is a growing contingent of scholars at BYU (especially the newer generation) who are quite excited about things ("dancing in the streets" as one friend put it).

$$$, of course, is a big issue and my understanding is that Bradford and his colleagues made this decision with the knowledge that they would lose funding. They believe though that better scholarship will win out in the end and that it is better to be smaller and producer superior work than to be larger and produce what they have been.

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 Post subject: Re: DCP Responds to Getting "Fired" from the Review
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:11 pm 
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the narrator wrote:
$$$, of course, is a big issue and my understanding is that Bradford and his colleagues made this decision with the knowledge that they would lose funding. They believe though that better scholarship will win out in the end and that it is better to be smaller and producer superior work than to be larger and produce what they have been.

They will lose donors, but I think they will gain many too. How much, I don't know? Bushman sure doesn't seem to struggle much in this area.

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