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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:53 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
MCB wrote:
If the parish priest is absent, and there is not another one available, a person of either gender can lead a service at which the readings for the day are delivered, and the pre-blessed Sacrament can be distributed [by either gender]

I stand corrected. So basically women in the Roman Catholic Church have the authority of LDS deacons (who pass the sacrament), but not the authority of LDS priests (who bless the sacrament).


Also put in there the priesthood of all believers. All the baptized share in the priesthood of Jesus Christ. Mothers blessing their children is normal. Catholics blessing each other is also normal.

The sacramental responsibilities of clergy are understood to be acting in persona Christi, in the person of Christ. Jesus was male, which, I don't have any resentment for anyone being male or female. Having an all-male priesthood makes sense to me, in this context.

There remains in Catholicism a sense of hierarchal order, that favors men over women. It has changed dramatically at a parish level. To the point where people who do not like these changes accuse women of running the parish AND its priest(s). :biggrin: There is less of this change at the diocese level and even less at the Vatican level.

It will take time. The Catholic Church changes very, very slowly. Decisions have been known to take a couple of centuries.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:27 pm 
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MCB wrote:
I repeat: An extraordinary minister of the Eucharist must also be a person whose lifestyle is in conformity with the teachings of the Church.

Those to become extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are blessed for that purpose. If you will accept the analogy, it is a lesser priesthood. And those people do this on a regular basis, nearly at every Mass. Just too many people for the priest to do it himself.

So Catholic women hold what you have called a "lesser priesthood." I would never call what LDS women in the LDS temples hold a "lesser priesthood"; suffice it to say it's somewhere between a lesser priesthood and the priesthood that men hold, both in LDS temples and in everyday life. So far we are equals.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:32 pm 
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krose wrote:
Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members

The LDS Church is slow, I'll grant you that. What's embarrassing about how slow it is?

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:36 pm 
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MCB wrote:
The LDS church is not consistently pro-life. Being opposed to abortion, but supporting the death penalty and the unrestricted right to bear arms is hypocritical.

MCB, how can you even compare the right of innocent fetuses to be born with the alleged right of convicted murderers to escape the death penalty? The fetuses never killed anybody.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:45 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
So long as you don't object to the Conservative label.

I do object to the Conservative label. In most recent elections I've always preferred the more moderate candidates to the more conservative ones. I even say without apology that I voted for Paul Tsongas in the Democratic caucuses back in 1992. The nation really missed out on a good leader when Bill Clinton beat him and became the Democratic Party's nominee.

(I'm kind of pulling your chain here. I did eventually decide to concentrate on Republican candidates only a few years later, though as I said I have always favored moderate Republicans to conservative ones.)

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:50 pm 
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DarkHelmet wrote:
What church are you talking about? LDS girls camp is not coed. We keep telling you to go to church and learn things, but you never do.

DarkHelmet, I'm pretty sure Why Me was talking about youth conference, not girl's camp.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:28 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
DarkHelmet wrote:
What church are you talking about? LDS girls camp is not coed. We keep telling you to go to church and learn things, but you never do.

DarkHelmet, I'm pretty sure Why Me was talking about youth conference, not girl's camp.


No he was talking about girls camp.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:34 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
MCB wrote:
I repeat: An extraordinary minister of the Eucharist must also be a person whose lifestyle is in conformity with the teachings of the Church.

Those to become extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are blessed for that purpose. If you will accept the analogy, it is a lesser priesthood. And those people do this on a regular basis, nearly at every Mass. Just too many people for the priest to do it himself.

So Catholic women hold what you have called a "lesser priesthood." I would never call what LDS women in the LDS temples hold a "lesser priesthood"; suffice it to say it's somewhere between a lesser priesthood and the priesthood that men hold, both in LDS temples and in everyday life. So far we are equals.


Well one big difference is that the vast majority of Catholic men hold the same "lesser priesthood" that women do, so over all men and women are on more equal footing in the Catholic church.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:53 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
krose wrote:
Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members

The LDS Church is slow, I'll grant you that. What's embarrassing about how slow it is?

It was certainly embarrassing to me as a missionary, to have to come up with a lame rationalization for a policy that was still in place years after the civil rights movement.

It's kind of odd that an organization with an alleged direct link to divine revelation would lag so far behind the curve of societal evolution. One might think such a link should put them ahead of the curve.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:23 pm 
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cafe crema wrote:
No he was talking about girls camp.

Why Me, could you clear this up? I'm of the opinion that in the mentioned post you were talking about youth conference. Cafe Crema is of the opinion that you were talking about girl's camp. Which were you talking about?

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:26 pm 
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cafe crema wrote:
Well one big difference is that the vast majority of Catholic men hold the same "lesser priesthood" that women do, so over all men and women are on more equal footing in the Catholic church.

That's true.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:33 pm 
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krose wrote:
It was certainly embarrassing to me as a missionary, to have to come up with a lame rationalization for a policy that was still in place years after the civil rights movement.

It's kind of odd that an organization with an alleged direct link to divine revelation would lag so far behind the curve of societal evolution. One might think such a link should put them ahead of the curve.

So is there some compelling reason to believe that God will always approve of how society has evolved? That God has some kind of an obligation to always be politically correct, as defined by societal norms?

I personally am leaning toward the opinion that God never desired for blacks to be denied the priesthood, but that God still thought Brigham Young was the best man to preserve the continuity of the restored gospel, even though he knew that Young had some prejudices he would incorrectly conclude had been revealed to him by God. But I haven't entirely ruled out the possibility that God actually had a reason for denying the blacks the priesthood, a reason that went away in 1978. I don't know how one goes about concluding with certainty that no such reason could have existed.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:22 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
So is there some compelling reason to believe that God will always approve of how society has evolved? That God has some kind of an obligation to always be politically correct, as defined by societal norms?

Society at large? No. But the organization he is supposedly closely guiding, with his chosen mouthpiece at its head? I think that's not too much to expect.

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I personally am leaning toward the opinion that God never desired for blacks to be denied the priesthood, but that God still thought Brigham Young was the best man to preserve the continuity of the restored gospel, even though he knew that Young had some prejudices he would incorrectly conclude had been revealed to him by God. But I haven't entirely ruled out the possibility that God actually had a reason for denying the blacks the priesthood, a reason that went away in 1978. I don't know how one goes about concluding with certainty that no such reason could have existed.

You have every right to come up with that explanation, although to me it looks a lot like an apologetic, an attempt to rationalize acceptance of the policy.

I have no idea if you lived through that era, so I don't know if you can relate to the conflicts the reversal caused. As for me, after initially welcoming the belated change in policy, I was left with a growing distrust in the idea that our leaders were actually being guided by revelation. Four years (and one slowly crumbling "testimony") later, I was completely out of the church.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:30 pm 
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I'm actually glad to see KevinSim is coming to the same conclusion I reached a while ago about BY and the man-made, evil doctrine that he implemented banning blacks from the priesthood. And krose is not incorrect that the fact it was carried forth by many Mormon prophets over a long period does not speak well for them and how inspired they were. It is shameful they didn't embrace Martin Luther King, who I very much consider a prophet, when he was alive and marched with him demanding equal rights for blacks. But, I don't view the fact that human beings are flawed, believe incorrect things, lead churches, have failings, and are uninspired unless they seek the Lord as any indication as to the truthfulness of the Gospel nor does it have any bearing the existence of God.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:37 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
cafe crema wrote:
No he was talking about girls camp.

Why Me, could you clear this up? I'm of the opinion that in the mentioned post you were talking about youth conference. Cafe Crema is of the opinion that you were talking about girl's camp. Which were you talking about?


If you look back he was responding directly to my post which mentioned girls camp and RS nothing about youth conference.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:49 am 
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cafe crema wrote:

If you look back he was responding directly to my post which mentioned girls camp and RS nothing about youth conference.


I was talking about youth conference or a young adult conference. Both are coed.

However, I do believe that at girls camp, the young women's presidency kicks in with volunteers and these volunteers are usually the mothers of some of girls present. The priesthood may have a speaker to speak to the girls but not much more.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:51 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
cafe crema wrote:
No he was talking about girls camp.

Why Me, could you clear this up? I'm of the opinion that in the mentioned post you were talking about youth conference. Cafe Crema is of the opinion that you were talking about girl's camp. Which were you talking about?


Youth conference. See my post above.

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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:09 am 
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why me wrote:
KevinSim wrote:
[
Why Me, could you clear this up? I'm of the opinion that in the mentioned post you were talking about youth conference. Cafe Crema is of the opinion that you were talking about girl's camp. Which were you talking about?


Youth conference. See my post above.


Then why did you respond to my comment about girls camp without clarifying you meant youth conference? And yes 2 priesthood holders are required to be present at girls camp 24/7.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:58 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
So far we are equals.


I'm not sure how you are arriving at this considering that the Catholic scenario under discussion is not sexist at all. The members who assist in the ordinance of the Eucharist assist without regard to sex and serve the entire congregation without regard to their sex or the sex of the congregants. In the case of the LDS initiatory (or whatever it is called now) the women officiate (without holding the priesthood) only to other women and only in a setting in which mixed company would be frowned upon.

Your original claim was that the church was exceptional in virtue of allowing some women to officiate in some circumstances (without being ordained to the priesthood) and that this set it apart from organizations "like the Roman Catholic Church." Here we have been shown that the church is clearly not exceptional in this regard. If by your definitions organizations like the RCC are "right wing" in part because of their policies regarding gender and the priesthood, then you haven't succeeded at showing how the LDS church stands apart from them if you are willing to concede that the scenarios are equal. I don't think you can rationally claim even that, given that the RCC scenario is clearly less sexist, but if we were to accept it just for the sake of argument, your original thesis probably needs to be given up.


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:15 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
Critics of the LDS Church like to paint it as extreme right wing, and point to its patriarchal structure, lumping the LDS Church in with organizations like the Roman Catholic Church and some evangelical organizations that think the Bible forbids letting women have leadership positions over men. The big question is why can't women hold the LDS priesthood.


KevinSim, going back to your original thesis. Can you please clarify for me what you are saying here? I'm not sure I understand how the initiatory example even answers the criticism you set the example up with. You pointed out a circumstance in which a few women officiate (without being ordained into the priesthood) ordinances that involve only other women.

-Women who officiate these ordinances are not ordained to the priesthood and do not hold the priesthood. They perform a limited priesthood function that has been delegated to them by those (men) who do hold the authority.

-This does not stand in contradiction with the ultra-conservative idea that women shouldn't "have leadership positions over men," or threaten any "right-wing" credentials the church might have.

Also, can you please clarify what you mean when you say "right-wing"?


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 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:59 am 
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krose wrote:
Society at large? No. But the organization he is supposedly closely guiding, with his chosen mouthpiece at its head? I think that's not too much to expect.

Why don't you think that God might disagree with society on the timing of some changes?

krose wrote:
You have every right to come up with that explanation, although to me it looks a lot like an apologetic, an attempt to rationalize acceptance of the policy.

I looked up apologetic at "dictionary.reference.com/browse/apologetic?s=t" and didn't find a definition for a noun. One of the definitions for an adjective was "defending by speech or writing." By apologetic do you mean one who defends "by speech or writing"? If so, is there something wrong with defending someone or something?

I did "attempt to rationalize acceptance of the policy"; what alternative does a rational person have when his church, that he has reason to believe God inspired, presents him with a policy that's difficult to understand?

krose wrote:
I have no idea if you lived through that era, so I don't know if you can relate to the conflicts the reversal caused.

I'm 52. I "lived through that era."

krose wrote:
As for me, after initially welcoming the belated change in policy, I was left with a growing distrust in the idea that our leaders were actually being guided by revelation. Four years (and one slowly crumbling "testimony") later, I was completely out of the church.

Several things have shaken my testimony over the years, but it hasn't crumbled yet. I guess I don't see how a church getting God's will wrong in one area (if it did indeed get God's will wrong), means God didn't choose that church to take His message to the world.

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