It is currently Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:46 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:44 am 
2nd Counselor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Tennessee
KevinSim wrote:
MCB wrote:
Less sexist than your church.

How do you come to this conclusion?


You have stated one exceptional circumstance in which women administer to other women behind closed doors. They do not administer to men, and could not be seen to have a position of authority.

MCB has told us that within his faith, there are circumstances under which women conduct services (position of authority) and pass the sacrament publicly to the general membership regardless of gender.

That is clearly less sexist.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:56 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:31 pm
Posts: 2904
angsty wrote:
You have stated one exceptional circumstance in which women administer to other women behind closed doors. They do not administer to men, and could not be seen to have a position of authority.

MCB has told us that within his faith, there are circumstances under which women conduct services (position of authority) and pass the sacrament publicly to the general membership regardless of gender.

That is clearly less sexist.

I don't think it's clear at all. I personally think it's pretty much a wash. Granted the Roman Catholic Church lets women pass the sacrament, but it was pretty clear that it doesn't let them bless the sacrament. It's not even clear that the RC hierarchy considers distributing the sacrament to be a priesthood function. On the other hand, what women do (admittedly behind closed doors), is clearly considered a priesthood function.

_________________
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:04 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:14 am
Posts: 4078
Location: Somewhere on Interstate 94
Quote:
It's not even clear that the RC hierarchy considers distributing the sacrament to be a priesthood function.
I repeat: An extraordinary minister of the Eucharist must also be a person whose lifestyle is in conformity with the teachings of the Church.

Those to become extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist are blessed for that purpose. If you will accept the analogy, it is a lesser priesthood. And those people do this on a regular basis, nearly at every Mass. Just too many people for the priest to do it himself.

_________________
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.Virginia/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:19 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:18 am
Posts: 2487
Yes, you are correct. People conclude that the church is conservative because they don't give women the priesthood. Of course.

Their stances on issues such as the ERA, abortion, and marriage equality have nothing to do with it. Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members, Ezra's rants about communists hiding under every bed, the speeches in the MoCon about a woman's place being in the home, the concept that any husband is the official head of household, the temple ceremony where women promised to obey their husbands -- those have nothing to do with it.

Right.

Oh, and I'm sure the fact that they got women to do the touching of other women's "private areas" in the temple had nothing to do with conservative notions of privacy and propriety.

And certainly it makes young girls feel better about themselves, as they watch their less mature male classmates get ordained to specialness and authority, to know that one day they could be one of a few old women who conduct an obscure ceremony for younger women.

_________________
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:21 am 
2nd Counselor
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Tennessee
krose wrote:
Yes, you are correct. People conclude that the church is conservative because they don't give women the priesthood. Of course.

Their stances on issues such as the ERA, abortion, and marriage equality have nothing to do with it. Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members, Ezra's rants about communists hiding under every bed, the speeches in the MoCon about a woman's place being in the home, the concept that any husband is the official head of household, the temple ceremony where women promised to obey their husbands -- those have nothing to do with it.

Right.

Oh, and I'm sure the fact that they got women to do the touching of other women's "private areas" in the temple had nothing to do with conservative notions of privacy and propriety.

And certainly it makes young girls feel better about themselves, as they watch their less mature male classmates get ordained to specialness and authority, to know that one day they could be one of a few old women who conduct an obscure ceremony for younger women.


Thank you.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:17 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:18 am
Posts: 2487
That said, it is true that the church itself, judging only from its most current official statements, is nowhere near as right wing as the large majority of its members in the Mormon Corridor.

I am convinced that if a prophet came out in support of reasonable gun control laws, or against capital punishment (two thorny moral issues where they avoid taking a clear stand), there would be massive defections by many Mormons who hold certain political issues more sacred than their religion.

_________________
"The DNA of fictional populations appears to be the most susceptible to extinction." - Simon Southerton


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:06 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 29, 2009 8:14 am
Posts: 4078
Location: Somewhere on Interstate 94
Quote:
if a prophet came out in support of reasonable gun control laws, or against capital punishment (two thorny moral issues where they avoid taking a clear stand),
The LDS church is not consistently pro-life. Being opposed to abortion, but supporting the death penalty and the unrestricted right to bear arms is hypocritical.

_________________
Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.Virginia/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:17 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:38 pm
Posts: 4788
The church tries hard to present itself as politically neutral, but the culture is dominated by people like BC Space, Droopy, etc. they are the ones that tend to rise to leadership positions where they can pass judgment and enforce their politics on those who must sustain them.

_________________
"There's no reason for this." - Andrew Jackson

"If you are a racist, I will attack you with the North" - Abraham Lincoln


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:42 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9589
MCB wrote:
The LDS church is not consistently pro-life. Being opposed to abortion, but supporting the death penalty and the unrestricted right to bear arms is hypocritical.


Many catholic women practice birth control. And many get abortions. The catholic church does nothing about it. The LDS church tries to be fair in case of rape or incest. Most Catholics are in favor of gun control and are against the death penalty?

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:45 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9589
MCB wrote:
repeat: An extraordinary minister of the Eucharist must also be a person whose lifestyle is in conformity with the teachings of the Church.

.


Really? And what are the teachings of the RC church that they must be in conformity with? Does the priest give an interview with the women and ask them personal questions about their lifestyle? If so, that is news to me.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:48 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9589
DarkHelmet wrote:
The church tries hard to present itself as politically neutral, .


It does a pretty good job with this. Much better than most churches, especially the liberal churches who are in the trenches for various liberal causes. And the RC church which also gets involved with politics when the bishops feel that politics are encroaching on their belief systems.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:31 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:48 am
Posts: 18536
Quote:
So I guess I object to the right wing label.


So long as you don't object to the Conservative label. Today's Liberal ideology is not welcome in the LDS Church it being counter to the doctrine of Christ. Joseph Smith himself spoke out against many of Liberalism's principles, particularly as it relates to the Law of Consecration.

Quote:
Joseph Smith was in many ways quite radical, liberally, and some of that has survived to this day in the temple ceremonies.


He was classically liberal which equates to today's Conservatism.

_________________
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
A lesson on 'Faggotry' for Kevin Graham; a legitimately descriptive and even positive term used by homosexuals themselves.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 5:33 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:42 pm
Posts: 18045
Location: Koloburbia
why me wrote:
[The LDS Church] does a pretty good job with this. Much better than most churches, especially the liberal churches who are in the trenches for various liberal causes.


What's up with these liberal churches caring about the wellbeing of its members in the here and now???!!! Don't they understand how this can adversely affect the big donors? Well, at least they won't grow into Mega-Churches with that attitude.

_________________
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:37 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 10:07 pm
Posts: 2003
KevinSim wrote:
MCB wrote:
Less sexist than your church.

KevinSim wrote:
How do you come to this conclusion?


You have stated one exceptional circumstance in which women administer to other women behind closed doors. They do not administer to men, and could not be seen to have a position of authority.

angsty wrote:
MCB has told us that within his faith, there are circumstances under which women conduct services (position of authority) and pass the sacrament publicly to the general membership regardless of gender.

That is clearly less sexist.


Heck girls can't even go to camp without a priesthood holder to preside over the outing 24/7.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:53 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 1690
Location: Somewhere on the ocean with know-it-all control freak Nephi
krose wrote:
Yes, you are correct. People conclude that the church is conservative because they don't give women the priesthood. Of course.

Their stances on issues such as the ERA, abortion, and marriage equality have nothing to do with it. Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members, Ezra's rants about communists hiding under every bed, the speeches in the MoCon about a woman's place being in the home, the concept that any husband is the official head of household, the temple ceremony where women promised to obey their husbands -- those have nothing to do with it.

Right.

Oh, and I'm sure the fact that they got women to do the touching of other women's "private areas" in the temple had nothing to do with conservative notions of privacy and propriety.

And certainly it makes young girls feel better about themselves, as they watch their less mature male classmates get ordained to specialness and authority, to know that one day they could be one of a few old women who conduct an obscure ceremony for younger women.



Excellent comments. I wish this board had a like/dislike button

_________________
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:50 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9589
cafe crema wrote:

Heck girls can't even go to camp without a priesthood holder to preside over the outing 24/7.


Chasity is important. When youth are gathered there are chaperones to watch over the festivities. For after all it is coed.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:52 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 1:19 pm
Posts: 9589
moksha wrote:

What's up with these liberal churches caring about the wellbeing of its members in the here and now???!!! Don't they understand how this can adversely affect the big donors? Well, at least they won't grow into Mega-Churches with that attitude.


The liberal churches are often involved in promoting their social causes. They are certainly not neutral. Likewise for the catholic church as can be seen with their reaction against obama. The LDS church is quite apolitical when compared to such churches.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 3:40 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:38 pm
Posts: 4788
why me wrote:
cafe crema wrote:

Heck girls can't even go to camp without a priesthood holder to preside over the outing 24/7.


Chasity is important. When youth are gathered there are chaperones to watch over the festivities. For after all it is coed.


What church are you talking about? LDS girls camp is not coed. We keep telling you to go to church and learn things, but you never do.

_________________
"There's no reason for this." - Andrew Jackson

"If you are a racist, I will attack you with the North" - Abraham Lincoln


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 10:07 pm
Posts: 2003
why me wrote:
cafe crema wrote:

Heck girls can't even go to camp without a priesthood holder to preside over the outing 24/7.


Chasity is important. When youth are gathered there are chaperones to watch over the festivities. For after all it is coed.


And of course grown women are not capable of chaperoning the girls in their charge so a priesthood holder must be present to for proper chaperoning. :rolleyes:

Grown women are also not capable of holding a retreat themselves it also must be presided over by priesthood holders.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:32 pm 
Stake President
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 10:04 am
Posts: 576
KevinSim wrote:
So I guess I object to the right wing label. Joseph Smith was in many ways quite radical, liberally, and some of that has survived to this day in the temple ceremonies.
The LDS Church is Joseph Smith's Church less and less every year (I doubt that he himself would last 6 months in the Church today) and I don't think that this happening without the approval and direction of Bros. Sure the Church tries to maintain some sort of connection it's 19th century founder but only by re-packaging Brother Joseph as something more a current General Authority.

Other than that, what krose said about covers it:
krose wrote:
Their stances on issues such as the ERA, abortion, and marriage equality have nothing to do with it. Their embarrassingly slow change in finally recognizing blacks as full members, Ezra's rants about communists hiding under every bed, the speeches in the MoCon about a woman's place being in the home, the concept that any husband is the official head of household, the temple ceremony where women promised to obey their husbands -- those have nothing to do with it.


Politically no doubt the LDS Church skews right wing. I think the latest pols (Pew etc) have the membership leaning Republican at something like 75%-78%.

_________________
Crawling around the evidence in order to maintain a testimony of the Book of Mormon.

http://www.ldsrevelations.com/blog


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: LDS Church not Right Wing
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 6:51 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 11, 2012 6:46 pm
Posts: 1690
Location: Somewhere on the ocean with know-it-all control freak Nephi
why me wrote:
cafe crema wrote:

Heck girls can't even go to camp without a priesthood holder to preside over the outing 24/7.


Chasity is important. When youth are gathered there are chaperones to watch over the festivities. For after all it is coed.




Yeah you don't want any of those cup cakes to get licked or wear two sets of ear rings

_________________
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. - The Dude

Don't you know there ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk - Tom Waits


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 81 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exiled, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot] and 32 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group