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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:17 pm 
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lulu wrote:
why me wrote:
They just could not deny what they experienced.

But we could start with "what was their experience."

I'll pick this starting point:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 1?lang=eng

Ready?


And.... What is the point? I see no problem with the D&C section. They saw the plates as stated but Martin had a problem with faith but later he also had his experience. And it it this experience that they could not deny.

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We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:21 pm 
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marg wrote:

Why me Have you heard the voice of God, have you seen the plates through the power of God. And what is this God or angel that you know is the same per the Book of Mormon witness statement. You have not had the same experiences that is claimed by those witnesses.
.


I had my own experience with the book of mormon. I knelt down and prayed about it and received a very powerful witness that it was true. And it is that witness that I cannot deny. However, I am not the best church member. So, I can relate to the witnesses having a strong witness and yet, drifting away. However, some of the witnesses drifted away not because of disbelief but because of Joseph Smith. But they hung on to their testimony.

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I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:41 pm 
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why me wrote:
They just could not deny what they experienced.
lulu wrote:
But we could start with "what was their experience."

I'll pick this starting point:

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... 1?lang=eng

Ready?

whyme wrote:
And.... What is the point? I see no problem with the D&C section. They saw the plates as stated but Martin had a problem with faith but later he also had his experience. And it it this experience that they could not deny.
So you don't think it makes any difference if Joseph Smith, 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses saw the plates with

their positivistic, empirical, naturalistic, non-metaphysical eyes

or

they only saw them with their spiritual, metaphysical, supernatural eyes?

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:07 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.


What do you think the phrase "I saw them with spiritual eyes" means?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:08 am 
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lulu wrote:
]So you don't think it makes any difference if Joseph Smith, 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses saw the plates with

their positivistic, empirical, naturalistic, non-metaphysical eyes

or

they only saw them with their spiritual, metaphysical, supernatural eyes?[/color]


You will need to read the two statements. The D&C section you listed fits well with the three witness statement. All the witnesses were not exactly immune to questions and answers throughout their lives about their experiences. They did not have a written response in their pocket. They explained the process as they remembered it. As I said before, there is no difference with spiritual eyes or just plain eyes. They had a spiritual experience which they never denied. They never contradicted their statement in the book of mormon and all knew that the statement was there. Nor did they ask for this statement to be removed.

spiritual eyes: a spiritual experience seen with the eyes. Perfectly okay to describe what they saw and experienced at times. It gives some color to an experience they had to explain over and over again. And it is a good adjective to use to create a process in the mind of the questioner.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:13 am 
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why me wrote:
lulu wrote:
]So you don't think it makes any difference if Joseph Smith, 3 witnesses, 8 witnesses saw the plates with

their positivistic, empirical, naturalistic, non-metaphysical eyes

or

they only saw them with their spiritual, metaphysical, supernatural eyes?[/color]


You will need to read the two statements. The D&C section you listed fits well with the three witness statement. All the witnesses were not exactly immune to questions and answers throughout their lives about their experiences. They did not have a written response in their pocket. They explained the process as they remembered it. As I said before, there is no difference with spiritual eyes or just plain eyes. They had a spiritual experience which they never denied. They never contradicted their statement in the book of mormon and all knew that the statement was there. Nor did they ask for this statement to be removed.

spiritual eyes: a spiritual experience seen with the eyes. Perfectly okay to decribe it this way at times.

Nice duck.

Let's start with the D&C and get real specific.

"even as my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., has seen them"

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:31 am 
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lulu wrote:

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?[/color]


He was shown where the plates were by an angel and he dug them up. He handled the plates, hid the plates, ran though the woods with the plates, put the plates on a wagon and drove the plates around and around.

Joseph first inclination was to sell the plates since he saw dollars to be made. He was punished and saw the light about the plates. Thus it all began.

It wasn't god purpose to take the plates to an assayer.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:58 am 
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why me wrote:
lulu wrote:

How did Joseph Smith see the plates?

Could they have been taken to an assayer, had one been so inclined, and been analysed?[/color]


He was shown where the plates were by an angel and he dug them up. He handled the plates, hid the plates, ran though the woods with the plates, put the plates on a wagon and drove the plates around and around.

Joseph first inclination was to sell the plates since he saw dollars to be made. He was punished and saw the light about the plates. Thus it all began.

It wasn't god purpose to take the plates to an assayer.

Another duck. Pretty soon you'll have a whole flock.

When Joseph Smith saw the plates, was he seeing something that was objectively and empirically real?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:06 pm 
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I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

And I'm wondering why D&C 17 doesn't just say, you'll see the plates. Why the need for the qualifier - as Joseph Smith has seen them?

The qualifier places in issue - How did Joseph Smith see them?

Is it saying that Joseph Smith saw them in something other than a naturalistic, object, emperical way?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 4:36 pm 
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lulu wrote:
Darth J wrote:
I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.

And I'm wondering why D&C 17 doesn't just say, you'll see the plates. Why the need for the qualifier - as Joseph Smith has seen them?

The qualifier places in issue - How did Joseph Smith see them?

Is it saying that Joseph Smith saw them in something other than a naturalistic, object, emperical way?


Or one might ask why the witnesses needed to sincerely believe in Joseph Smith's story before they would be allowed to see the plates.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 5:08 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
Or one might ask why the witnesses needed to sincerely believe in Joseph Smith's story before they would be allowed to see the plates.

Well really. Just getting in to this topic but did Joseph Smith only see them with his spiritual eyes, thus when the 3 saw them just like Joseph Smith, they only saw them with their spiritual eyes?

But it looks like gmetz and why me don't want to discuss.

Maybe they've been called into an emmergency meeting in the Apologetics Central Situation Room over you know what.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 8:22 pm 
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What is there to sensibly discuss? If there were eleven thousand witnesses, you guys would just try to look at all their statements and grasp for straws with the hope that you could console yourselves if you could find some inconsistencies among the eleven thousand witnesses! Maybe you guys could help Sandusky out. There are about eleven witnesses against him also!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:50 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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gdemetz wrote:
What is there to sensibly discuss? If there were eleven thousand witnesses, you guys would just try to look at all their statements and grasp for straws with the hope that you could console yourselves if you could find some inconsistencies among the eleven thousand witnesses! Maybe you guys could help Sandusky out. There are about eleven witnesses against him also!


There are not 11,000 people purporting to be witnesses to the Book of Mormon, and it is unnecessary to grasp at straws to reject the testimonials of the Eight or the Three Witnesses. For example of a thread discussing the non-value of the testimonial of Joseph Smith's dad, older brother, etc., see: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23924

But let's turn your question around, gdemetz. For how long, and in how many places, would we have to look for evidence of the Nephite or Jaredite civilizations and not find it before you would be willing to consider that neither of these civilizations ever existed?

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
I wonder if, at some point, Why Me or gdemetz will be able to consider that the so-called "Book of Mormon witnesses" gave inconsistent statements about what they claimed to have experienced.


Are the witnesses robots, taught to memorize a response? We have 11 people being asked several times in their lives about what they experienced. Unfortunately they could not play a tape when asked. Anyone who has told the story in the same manner in the same way must have rehearsed the story over and over again because they have something to hide.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:33 pm 
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Darth J wrote:

But let's turn your question around, gdemetz. For how long, and in how many places, would we have to look for evidence of the Nephite or Jaredite civilizations and not find it before you would be willing to consider that neither of these civilizations ever existed?


And if we did find conclusive evidence, what would you do? Hightail it back to church, live the commandments, head to the temple...or would you still be where you are now when it comes to the lds church?

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:43 pm 
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lulu wrote:

But it looks like gmetz and why me don't want to discuss.

[/color]


I answered your spiritual eyes comment but you did not want to hear it. You are locked into it because your own position on the church depends on it.

Here is oliver:

In spite of a diseased body, Cowdery's mind and spirit were vigorous and alert to the end. A few months before his death, Oliver received a visit from Jacob Gates, an old Mormon acquaintance from before his excommunication in 1838. Gates, heading east on a mission to England, heard that his former priesthood leader was in poor health and stopped in Richmond to renew their friendship. 101 After conversing about troubled times in early church history, Gates asked Cowdery about his testimony printed in the Book of Mormon. He wanted to know if the testimony was based on a dream, the imagination of his mind, an illusion, or a myth. Jacob wanted the truth. As the account goes, Oliver Cowdery got up from his resting place, retrieved a first edition Book of Mormon, and read solemnly the testimony. Turning to face Gates, he said,

Jacob, I want you to remember what I say to you. I am a dying man, and what would it profit me to tell you a lie? I know that this Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God. My eyes saw, my ears heard, and my understanding was touched, and I know that whereof I testified is true. It was no dream, no vain imagination of the mind — it was real.
http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... pts/?id=50

I see no spiritual eyes there. Just a confirmation of an experience.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


Last edited by why me on Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:10 am 
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Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.


What do you think the phrase "I saw them with spiritual eyes" means?



Bumpage...

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:19 am 
Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Yea, they saw the plates and "handled" them. That sounds pretty physical to me.


What do you think the phrase "I saw them with spiritual eyes" means?


I dunno. Maybe something like this?:

It was no delusion:

Quote:
Because Oliver Cowdery died in 1850 at age 43 and Martin Harris died in 1875 at age 91, David Whitmer was the only survivor of the Three Witnesses for 13 years. At Richmond, Missouri, he sometimes received several inquirers daily asking about his connection to the Book of Mormon, including Mormon missionaries who were traveling from Utah to the eastern United States and Europe. Despite his hostility toward the LDS Church, Whitmer always stood by his claim that he had actually seen the Golden Plates.[30]

Nevertheless, his testimonies were recorded differently from one retelling to another.[31] Recounting the vision to Orson Pratt in 1878, Whitmer claimed to have seen not only the Golden Plates but the "Brass Plates, the plates containing the record of the wickedness of the people of the world....the sword of Laban, the Directors (i.e. the ball which Lehi had) and the Interpreters. I saw them just as plain as I see this bed...."[32]

In 1880, John Murphy interviewed Whitmer and later published an account suggesting that perhaps Whitmer's experience was a "delusion or perhaps a cunning scheme." Murphy's account said that Whitmer had not been able to describe the appearance of an angel and had likened Whitmer's experience to the "impressions as the quaker [receives] when the spirit moves, or as a good Methodist in giving a happy experience."[33] Whitmer responded by publishing A Proclamation, reaffirming his testimony and saying,

"It having been represented by one John Murphy, of Polo, Caldwell County, Mo., that I, in a conversation with him last summer, denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the BOOK OF MORMON. To the end, therefore, that he may understand me now, if he did not then; and that the world may know the truth, I wish now, standing as it were, in the very sunset of life, and in the fear of God, once for all to make this public statement: That I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that Book, as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have always adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do again affirm the truth of all of my statements, as then made and published. He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear; it was no delusion!"[34]

To the Proclamation Whitmer attached an affidavit attesting to his honesty and standing in the community.[35] Whitmer ordered that his testimony to the Book of Mormon be placed on his tombstone.[36]


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:18 am 
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Here is more oliver:

While darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the people; long after the authority to administer in holy things had been taken away, the Lord opened the heavens and sent forth His word to the salvation of Israel. In the fulfillment of the sacred Scriptures, the everlasting Gospel was proclaimed by the mighty Angel (Moroni), who, clothed with the authority of his mission, gave glory to God in the highest. John the Baptist, holding the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood; Peter, James, and John, holding the keys of the Melchizedek Priesthood, have also ministered for those who shall be heirs of salvation, and with these administrations ordained men to the same Priesthood. These Priesthoods, with their authority, are now, and must continue to be, in the body of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Blessed is the Elder who has received the same, and thrice blessed and holy is he who shall endure to the end.

Accept assurances, dear brother, of the unfeigned prayer of him who, in connection with Joseph the Seer, was blessed with the above ministrations, and who earnestly and devotedly hopes to meet you in the celestial glory.

(Signed) Oliver Cowdery.
To Elder Samuel W. Richards
January 13, 1849.

http://www.keepapitchinin.org/2010/08/2 ... testimony/

I see no spiritual eyes here either. Notice the date. He returned to the church and was still relating the story for the upteenth time.

_________________
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith


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