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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:17 pm 
God
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why me wrote:
lulu wrote:

Why the need for the qualifier?


Why not?

Yet another high point in online Mormon apologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:50 pm 
God

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why me wrote:
marg wrote:

Why me Have you heard the voice of God, have you seen the plates through the power of God. And what is this God or angel that you know is the same per the Book of Mormon witness statement. You have not had the same experiences that is claimed by those witnesses.
.


I had my own experience with the book of mormon. I knelt down and prayed about it and received a very powerful witness that it was true. And it is that witness that I cannot deny. However, I am not the best church member. So, I can relate to the witnesses having a strong witness and yet, drifting away. However, some of the witnesses drifted away not because of disbelief but because of Joseph Smith. But they hung on to their testimony.


Why me your experience is so different to theirs that it's hardly comparable and is leading you into poor critical thinking assumptions.

To begin with Harris, D. Whitmer, and Cowdery were business partners with Smith, before the Book of Mormon was written. They would have been aware that they stood to gain a huge financial reward as well as power should their venture become successful...a venture that used as its backbone the Book of Mormon.

What they testified to is not just a generic "feeling" like you say you had, but a particular experience of the same things ..an angel, voice of God, bright light, plates etc. That they all say they experienced the same particular things makes that experience much more extraordinary than yours..hence unlikely.

They were highly motivated to not deny their testimony experience otherwise to do so would make them liars in order to perpetuate a fraud.

If the 3 witnesses for the Book of Mormon had nothing to gain, were not given high positions in the Mormon business once it got started, if the other 8 were unrelated to each other...the 2 testimonies would have some reason to be credible. But given the circumstances of the claims made (they all claim to experience the same extraordinary things), how extraordinary the things they claimed are and given the Book of Mormon witnesses were related to one another, motivated for financial and position reward in the business...there is little reason to believe they were sincere/telling the truth.

And btw deathbed testimony is unreliable when it serves to benefit those taking/hearing the testimony.

And as to yourself, I'm even doubting your sincerity. From the inception of Mormonism the main purpose was that it was to replace other religions which were abominations. If you've had a powerful witness of the Book of Mormon then what's the justification to leaning towards/believing in Catholicism?

And if you believe D. Whitmer is telling the truth..why do you defend The LDS church? D. Whitmer said it's a false religion..and God told him to leave it.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:16 pm 
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Nice quotes, Why Me! However, should we dare get our hopes up?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:29 am 
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Do you believe everything that the witnesses testified of throughout their life? If not, why not?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:38 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Nice quotes, Why Me! However, should we dare get our hopes up?


Gdemetz, specifically which one of the quotes provided by Why Me demonstrates that the Book of Mormon witnesses did not tell inconsistent stories about their claimed experiences?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:56 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Nice quotes, Why Me! However, should we dare get our hopes up?


No. The witnesses are a sore point for any critic and exmember. Their testimony stands for all to read. Their faithfulness to their testimony also stands as a witness that something extraordinary happened with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:41 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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why me wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Nice quotes, Why Me! However, should we dare get our hopes up?


No. The witnesses are a sore point for any critic and exmember. Their testimony stands for all to read. Their faithfulness to their testimony also stands as a witness that something extraordinary happened with them.


Nope. Their faithfulness stands as a witness that they believed something extraordinary happened to them. The issue is not what they subjectively believed, but whether their testimonials support the claim that the Book of Mormon is an authentic historical record.

Here's a 23-page thread discussing how the testimonial of the Eight Witnesses is not in fact evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=23924 Why don't you jump in there and explain how the Eight Witnesses had any foundation for the testimonial Joseph Smith wrote for them, Why Me?

The testimony of eyewitnesses of the Loch Ness Monster, eyewitnesses to Bigfoot, witnesses to Our Lady of Fatima, UFO abductees, and the witnesses to James Strang's plates also stand for all to read. So all of those things are true too, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:47 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
Why don't you jump in there (why me)
It's easier for him just to post "why not."

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:32 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!

And yet another high point in online Mormon apologetics. If we get any higher, we'll run out of oxygen.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:37 pm 
God

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I'll wait, maybe one of you can come up with something.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:40 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I'll wait, maybe one of you can come up with something.

I'll wait, maybe you can answer my question on the need for the qualifying phrase in section 17 better than why me did.

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"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:36 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!


For one the most logical position to hold in evaluating situations which appear to be frauds plus which make extraordinary claims highly improbably is to not accept the claims until evidence justifies those claims.

But all the evidence points to a fraud and that those involved in key positions colluded.

It is not unusual that those involved in a fraud should present themselves as witnesses...that's to be expected. They do not make reliable witnesses...and that includes the Book of Mormon translation witnesses.

Now if there were witnesses with no vested interest in the enterprise that would raise their credibility.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:21 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!


Regarding the Kinderhook plates, it's not too difficult to get a group of people to "witness" something:

http://mormonthink.com/kinderhookweb.htm
Quote:
We, the citizens of Kinderhook, whose names are annexed, do certify and declare that on the 23rd of April, 1843, while excavating a large mound in this vicinity, Mr. R. Wiley took from said mound six brass plates of a bell shape, covered with ancient characters. Said plates were very much oxydated. The bands and rings on said plates mouldered into dust on a slight pressure. ROBERT WILEY, W. LONGNECKER, GEO. DECKENSON, FAYETTE GRUBB, W. FUGATE, W. P. HARRIS, J. R. SHARP, G. W. F. WARD, IRA S. CURTIS, (From the Quincy Whig.)



Regarding the witnesses to the supposed golden plates, I think David Whitmer was very clear:

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm
Quote:
David Whitmer said "If you believe my testimony to the Book of Mormon; if you believe that God spake to us three witnesses by his own voice, then I tell you that in June, 1838, God spake to me again by his own voice from the heavens, and told me to separate myself from among the Latter-day Saints, for as they sought to do unto me, so should it be done unto them."


And then we have the Soloman Spalding "witnesses"

http://mormonthink.com/witnessesweb.htm
Quote:
SOLOMON SPALDING WITNESSES

There are seven witnesses that say Solomon Spalding was the author of the Book of Mormon. Seven people wrote affidavits testifying that they had read early drafts of the Book of Mormon by author Solomon Spalding. In some ways they are more credible than the Book of Mormon witnesses as they each wrote their own account instead of merely signing a prepared statement.

Here's the testimony of the first of these seven witnesses, the brother of Solomon Spalding:

He [Solomon] then told me had he been writing a book, which he intended to have printed, the avails of which he thought would enable him to pay all his debts. The book was entitled the "Manuscript Found," of which he read to me many passages. -- It was a historical romance of the first settlers of America, endeavoring to show that the American Indians are the descendants of the Jews, or the lost tribes. It gave a detailed account of their journey from Jerusalem, by land and sea, till they arrived in America, under the command of NEPHI AND LEHI. They afterwards had quarrels and contentions, and separated into two distinct nations, one of which he denominated Nephites and the other Lamanites. Cruel and bloody wars ensued, in which great multitudes were slain. They buried their dead in large heaps, which caused the mounds so common in this country. Their arts, sciences and civilization were brought into view, in order to account for all the curious antiquities, found in various [280] parts of North and South America. I have recently read the Book of Mormon, and to my great surprize I find nearly the same historical matter, names, &c. as they were in my brother's writings. I well remember that he wrote in the old style, and commenced about every sentence with "and it came to pass," or "now it came to pass," the same as in the Book of Mormon, and according to the best of my recollection and belief, it is the same as my brother Solomon wrote, with the exception of the religious matter. -- By what means it has fallen into the hands of Joseph Smith, Jr. I am unable to determine.
JOHN SPALDING."

To read the rest of the witnesses claiming Solomon Spalding wrote the book that was modified into the Book of Mormon: http://www.mormonstudies.com/witness.htm

You never use data in your arguments gdemetz nor address data presented... why is that?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:31 pm 
God

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What more evidence could I add all these years later. You have enough evidence and testimonies and witnesses. If you still choose to be spiritually blind, then so be it. You are the ones who will have to account for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:07 pm 
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So gdemetz do you believe D. Whitmer that God spoke to him and told him to leave the LDS church?


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:25 pm 
God
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lulu wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Yea, you anti's post what specific reason you think that the witnesses should not be believed, not only the eleven, but the others also!

And yet another high point in online Mormon apologetics. If we get any higher, we'll run out of oxygen.

lulu wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
I'll wait, maybe one of you can come up with something.

I'll wait, maybe you can answer my question on the need for the qualifying phrase in section 17 better than why me did.


gdemetz wrote:
What more evidence could I add all these years later. You have enough evidence and testimonies and witnesses. If you still choose to be spiritually blind, then so be it. You are the ones who will have to account for that.



With the latest response I doubt you'll get an answer, I think we're out of oxygen now.


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:44 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
What more evidence could I add

An answer to my question?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:04 pm 
God

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Spaulding theory?! Is that the best you guys can do? FAIR shoots that bull down for the following reasons:

1- This manuscript found in the late 19th century bears no resemblance to the Book of Mormon.

2- No second manuscript that these theorists claim has ever been found.

3- There is no persuasive evidence that Sidney Rigdon ever contacted Joseph Smith before the Book of Mormon's publication.

"Until the purported manuscript appears, all these critics have is a non existent document which they claim says anything they want. This is doubtless the attraction of the theory and shows the lengths to which critics will go to {try} to disprove the Book of Mormon {especially on Mormon Discussions}.

"It is interesting to consider that the best explanation such critics can propose requires that they invent a document, then invent its contents, and then invent a means of getting the document to Joseph via Sidney."

And I may add, that these same critics will discard the overwhelming evidence that shows otherwise!!! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:19 pm 
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gdmetz, I am interested in hearing your answer to marg's question:

marg wrote:
So gdemetz do you believe D. Whitmer that God spoke to him and told him to leave the LDS church?

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 Post subject: Re: Joseph Smith wrote witnesses statement
PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:22 pm 
God

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No.


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