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 Post subject: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:09 pm 
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You might relate.

http://www.salon.com/2012/06/01/but_im_ ... singleton/


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:59 pm 
God
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Yeah.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that, mms.

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Oh for shame, how the mortals put the blame on us gods, for they say evils come from us, but it is they, rather, who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given... Zeus (1178 BC)

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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:18 pm 
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zeezrom wrote:
Yeah.

Wow.

Thank you for sharing that, mms.

Yeah, thanks...

It gives me some hope...

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"I'll let you believers in on a little secret: not only is the LDS church not really true, it's obviously not true." -Sethbag


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:49 pm 
God
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Well written article. Thanks for posting. As I learned decades ago and as I am sure many more learn every day, the most important 9 words a Mormon spouse can hear are:

"You are more important to me than the Church."

If the LDS Church had an ounce of integrity, they would preach what they claim to believe about marriage and tell their members that a good marriage is far more important than good attendance at Church, or even membership in the Church.

The fact that they do not make this clear to members is an indication of how much they really believe their own doctrine. It shows that their business is more important to them than their religion.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:55 pm 
This article hits too close to home for me. I can only hope my wife and family can also rise above what the church has told them to think about apostates and start to investiagate for themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:01 pm 
mms wrote:


It's a very moving account, that I acknowledge, and I hope things work out for them.

But:

Quote:
“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will?


The full account of this can be found in Compton's book, but to summarise:

Quote:
“The prophet’s marriage to her seems to have been largely dynastic—a union arranged by Joseph and Heber to seal the Kimball family to a seer, church president, and presiding patriarchal figure of the dispensation of the fullness of times" (Compton 1997, p. 486).


Quote:
Helen describes her reaction to this proposition,

“My father was the first to introduce it to me, which had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake. When he found (after the first outburst of displeasure for supposed injury) that I received it meekly, he took the first opportunity to introduce Sarah Ann [Whitney] to me as Joseph's wife" (Whitney 1880-1883).[2]


Quote:
The marriage was kept secret, and Kimball continued to live with her parents (Anderson & Faulring 1998).
.

Quote:
Helen Mar's writings, an important source of LDS history, were published by BYU's Religious Studies Center in 1997 in a book entitled A Woman's View: Helen Mar Whitney's Reminiscences of Early Church History. The book also includes her 1881 autobiography to her children wherein, concerning her marriage to the Prophet Joseph Smith, she wrote:

I have long since learned to leave all with [God], who knoweth better than ourselves what will make us happy. I am thankful that He has brought me through the furnace of affliction & that He has condesended to show me that the promises made to me the morning that I was sealed to the Prophet of God will not fail & I would not have the chain broken for I have had a view of the principle of eternal salvation & the perfect union which this sealing power will bring to the human family & with the help of our Heavenly Father I am determined to so live that I can claim those promises. (Holzapfel, 487)


Quote:
However, historian Todd Compton does not hold this view; he criticized the anti-Mormons Jerald and Sandra Tanner for using his book to argue for sexual relations, and wrote:

The Tanners made great mileage out of Joseph Smith's marriage to his youngest wife, Helen Mar Kimball. However, they failed to mention that I wrote that there is absolutely no evidence that there was any sexuality in the marriage, and I suggest that, following later practice in Utah, there may have been no sexuality. (p. 638) All the evidence points to this marriage as a primarily dynastic marriage.


But let the MDB myths continue unabated.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:14 pm 
Quote:
But let the MDB myths continue unabated.


What myth? The article never asserts that he had sex with her. Let's not derail the thread with this debate. If you want to fight it out start a new thread about it and I'll be more than willing to fight you on this. but the main point of this article is important and I want this attempted derail to die here.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:26 pm 
Stormy Waters wrote:
What myth? The article never asserts that he had sex with her. Let's not derail the thread with this debate. If you want to fight it out start a new thread about it and I'll be more than willing to fight you on this. but the main point on this article is important and I want this attempted derail to die here.


Helen Mar married Joseph Smith "against her will"?

Quote:
“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will?"


Really? See my quotes above.

It has long been asserted, as a doctrinal part of the MDB crowd, that Helen Mar had "sexual relations" with Joseph Smith. That is not what Compton found.

Maybe the nice lady who did the blog post (and I really liked it), should at least be told the truth?

No?


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 11:30 pm 
Stormy Waters wrote:
but the main point of this article is important and I want this attempted derail to die here.


Of course, because it sings your praises and gives you justification to hold another prejudice against Joseph Smith, who "forced" Helen Mar to marry him.

Don't let me further interrupt your kumbaya thread.

My apologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:06 am 
Here is where I deal with your attempted derail Ray.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=24186


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:20 am 
Stormy Waters wrote:
Here is where I deal with your attempted derail Ray.


I ask you again, was Helen Mar "forced" to marry Joseph Smith? That's what the blogger said her husband told her, and apparently part of the reason he lost his faith. So you're okay with lies?


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:22 am 
God
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"Dynastic" (and sexless) marriage to a 14 year old?

Sounds kind of ridiculous on the face of it, don't you think? (If the intent was pure here, then the judgement involved could not have been worse.)

Upon further consideration the whole idea is even more ridiculous. It was well known by several of his associates, including Parley P. Pratt, that Joseph Smith was engaging in sexual relations secretly with females to whom he was not married.

Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, pure and simple, telling young women that their salvation and the salvation of their families depended on their marrying him.

Were he alive and engaging in similar behavior today, Joseph Smith would not be the prophet and seer of a make-it-up-as-you-go-along religion. He would be a convicted felon looking forward to a long, long time behind bars.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:33 am 
RayAgostini wrote:
Stormy Waters wrote:
Here is where I deal with your attempted derail Ray.


I ask you again, was Helen Mar "forced" to marry Joseph Smith? That's what the blogger said her husband told her, and apparently part of the reason he lost his faith. So you're okay with lies?


Why do you keep using the word "forced" in quotations when it's not used in the article? Are you okay with lies Ray?


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 12:53 am 
Stormy Waters wrote:

Why do you keep using the word "forced" in quotations when it's not used in the article? Are you okay with lies Ray?


From the blog post:

Quote:
“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will?


What does "against her will" mean? Africans were enslaved "against their will". IOW, They didn't consent in any way.

Was that the case with Helen Mar?


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:02 am 
God
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Back onto the subject of the OP, here is a article by Reuters News Service that was referenced in the comments of the Salon.com article.

The Jensen remarks have been discussed before on this board, but this Reuters article is very well done and is worth a look for those who have not seen it.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/31/us-mormonchurch-idUSTRE80T1CM20120131

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:04 am 
DrW wrote:
Joseph Smith was a sexual predator, pure and simple, telling young women that their salvation and the salvation of their families depended on their marrying him.

Were he alive and engaging in similar behavior today, Joseph Smith would not be the prophet and seer of a make-it-up-as-you-go-along religion. He would be a convicted felon looking forward to a long, long time behind bars.


Don't forget to arrest and imprison Muhammad, and Joseph who married a pregnant Mary when in her early teens.

Keep on with your oh-so-right moral lectures and judgements. If nothing else, it makes you look so self-righteous and holy.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 1:12 am 
Go on Dr. W. Insult Muslims. Tell them that their prophet was a pedophile.
Post it on your blog if you have one.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:17 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
Go on Dr. W. Insult Muslims. Tell them that their prophet was a pedophile.
Post it on your blog if you have one.


Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.

That small issue aside, your suggestion that I insult Islam is not a reasonable or effective response to the truth about Joseph Smith.

Why would you think that it would be?
____________________________________

And if you read many of my posts here you will know that I am can be described as a scientistic secularist and really do not seek to be holier than anyone. In fact, I really try to avoid holy. It is just another term for superstitious.

_________________
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.”—Heber C Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol 6, Page 32


Last edited by DrW on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:22 am 
DrW wrote:

Although I live in a Muslim country and have studied some regarding the Arabs, Islam and their histories, I am unaware of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ever having been accused of being a pedophile, or indeed that there is any evidence that he could be considered as one.


Do some reading up on Muhammad's critics. I can't believe you're that ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:25 am 
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DrW wrote:
...
That small issue aside, your suggestion that I insult Islam is not a reasonable or effective response to the truth about Joseph Smith.

Why would you think that it would be?


Because he wants to derail the thread.

Because he wants to stop discussion of the fact that an intelligent Mormon couple looked at the church's history and found that the church and its founder were very different from what they had been led to believe. Then they left.

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 Post subject: Re: Salon.com "But I'm a good Mormon wife"
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:26 am 
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RayAgostini wrote:
It's a very moving account, that I acknowledge, and I hope things work out for them.

But:

Quote:
“Did you know that Joseph Smith married a 14-year-old girl against her will?


The full account of this can be found in Compton's book, but to summarise:

**[several seemingly random quotes related to Helen Mar Kimball, none of which say whether or not she wanted to marry Joseph Smith]**

But let the MDB myths continue unabated.

I doubt I've been around this board enough to have generated or spread any "MDB myths," but I'll still note here that, as an answer to the question above, you've assembled a terrible summary of what is in Compton's book. In fact, it's so bad that I'm having a hard time believing that you have any interest in setting anybody straight with "the truth" about it.

Here are some excerpts from the same book that are actually on-point:

Compton, in excerpts from In Sacred Loneliness, p.499-502, wrote:
As in the case of Sara Whitney, Joseph gave [Helen, the Kimball family's] teenage daughter responsibility not only for her own salvation but for that of her whole family. Thus Helen's acceptance of a union that was not intrinsically attractive to her was an act of youthful sacrifice and heroism.
***
Helen's reminiscence includes a poem that gives valuable insight into her feelings at the time. Unlike Eliza R. Snow, who looked upon the marriage to Joseph Smith as the spiritual zenith of her life, Helen, much younger, saw it as limiting her freedom and isolating her from her friends.
***
So apparently Helen had expected her marriage to Joseph Smith to be for eternity only, then discovered that it included time also. These lines [of the quoted poem] paint a bleak picture of Helen's mental state in the months after the wedding. A "sicken'd heart" broods; she is a "fetter'd bird with wild and longing heart" who pines for freedom every day. She must have been attracted to boys her own age, as would be normal. She certainly was already paying attention to Horace Whitney [whom she later married, willingly, in 1846]. The marriage to Smith coming so suddenly and blocking these growing feelings must have been devastating to her. These lines are the first evidence of depression in Helen Mar's life.
***
[Helen's father] Heber left Nauvoo on a mission to the eastern states [less than a month following Helen's marriage to Joseph] in early June 1843. A month later a letter he wrote to Helen shows that he was worried about her mental state as she entered into the role of polygamous wife. He counseled her to accept the marriage obediently and keep it a secret...Possibly Helen was having moments of open rebellion. Certainly she was seriously depressed.
***
She [Helen] was apparently coming to realize that her secret marriage to Joseph entailed time as well as eternity. A severe depression ensued--she felt that her life's happiness had ended completely--and she "brooded over the sad memories of sweet departed joys and all manner of future woes."

Clearly, Helen's father (whether out of ignorance or conscious treachery -- it's unclear) and Joseph Smith coerced her to marry Joseph under false pretenses (i.e., that it was "for eternity only"). Coercion, by definition, does not enable acts of free will, but assuming that somehow Helen wasn't successfully coerced, which I believe is the "truth" you are trying to enlighten us with, I suppose that we could maybe take from Compton's analysis the idea that Helen "willingly" (at least as willingly as a 14 year-old girl, not yet legally competent to sign a contract, could have been -- i.e., virtually not-at-all, imo) married Joseph "for eternity only", as a distant, or even merely theoretical, union in the afterlife.

As soon as Helen went through with the ceremony, however, she became the victim of a bait-and-switch, as Joseph began insisting that contrary to what she agreed to, she was now his actual earthly polygamous wife, and as such she would be isolated socially from her peer group. It is ridiculous for you, Ray, to imply that Compton's book says Helen willingly agreed to the marriage arrangement that Joseph eventually imposed on her.

The author of this blog post came to a realization, after a lifetime in the LDS Church hearing (and wrongfully trusting) people like you mischaracterizing the known facts in the service of Joseph Smith's legacy, that she had been misled to believe that Joseph Smith's behavior in this regard was virtuous and essentially different somehow from the behavior of Warren Jeffs. This deception, which she seems to attribute to the Church itself, is part of what made it so hard for her to support her husband's changing beliefs (and underwear!), and caused her to write this blog post.

Thanks, I guess, for helping to illustrate part of the author's struggle.

-JV


Last edited by Juggler Vain on Sat Jun 02, 2012 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

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