LDS theory explains away the paradox of how humans acquire unique individual identities/personalities....with the concept that they grow them in the pre-life.
I'm curious as to the theory of non LDS theologians.....Christians on the subject. When does god create the soul? At or around the birth of the physical? How does he do it? Does the person acquire it's core personality traits through a - roll of the dice-?

If god has nothing to do with the personality a person is dealt, who does? The person? How? If the person has nothing to do with the cards they are dealt, how can they be held accountable....for being the owner of a sociopath mind?

If god is creating the soul determinedly, why create faulty souls? Entertainment?

I believe that the traditional Christian POV is that God created the human race. Their souls are simply a part of them, just like their bodies are. All men are fallible, and in need of being "born again", or accepting of Christ in order to be saved, or to live with God in the hereafter. There is not a pre-existance, in the way that LDS believe in it.

ETA--I am kind of feeling my way through this, based on conversations I have had with friends who are traditional Christians, so those of you who are EV, Catholic, etc., please feel free to correct me. I am learning quite a bit from these discussions, and I find it fascinating.

Yes, but if the soul can disengage from the body at death and stand alone, how is it defined? How did it acquire its personality....that god says must be rated and sorted? A roll of the dice?


For the record, I am not a materialist/naturalist, (not that there's anything wrong with that) and don't want to be mistaken for one because I speak contrary to deity based religion. For argument sake, I guess some form of Buddhism would best describe my philosophies. Which branch of Buddhism.....Good question. I guess the one that most believes what I do.

Hello Liz



Yes, in addition to everything else that has a beginning (created), God created Human beings.



Indeed! (And it is my belief that the human soul is created at the moment of conception by the Creator)



Although I would certainly agree with you that there are some (many?) Christians who would suggest this, I would not. I believe God is God and as a mere creation myself, I remain dead silent on the entire matter (Pun intended).



Yes, this would mirror my personal belief.

Peace,
Ceeboo

Ceeboo, if god is purposefully creating souls, at the physical birth, with diverse personalities, why not just create them all perfect and equal? If he's creating them blank slate.....then what is there to define it? What did he create if it has no properties.... uniqueness? Simple awareness? How can simple awareness have a personality?

How are souls not created equally?

Christian belief (all Christians as far as I know) believe God creates as a whole person, body and soul, together. There is no such thing for us as a body without a soul. As has already been stated, Catholic belief is that the soul is created at conception (not birth).



Our personalities are part of who we are, created by God. We however are not robots. :) "God loves variety"...that's a movie line, can't remember the movie.



Christian teaching is, the soul is the part of us that is created in the image of God. Our souls are not faulty. We live in a fallen state. The Good News is Jesus Christ, who raises us up, every time we fall.

I don't see LDS theory explaining the paradox, as a matter of fact I see it complicating it with the eternal intelligences and what ever it is that they bring to the personality table. And it seems even more troublesome in the case of sociopaths. How does a sociopath mind develop in the preexistence, how is the sociopath able to willfully develop a sociopath mind right there in front of Heavenly Father? I also don't see how the LDS theory does a better job of addressing a sociopaths accountability???


I've never read any theological explanation for unique individual identities and personalities nor have I seen any indication that the soul is responsible for personality and identity. My guess is that in general Catholics would see personality and identity deriving from a combination of genetics and experience. As for ensoulment, the Catholic church has never taken a position on when that occurs, though it has always (for the most part) considered human life to begin at conception.

There are two main Christian positions on this, though all reject a pre-mortal existence.

Option #1, Creationism: This has nothing to do with the creation of the Earth. The idea is that the soul is created by God at the same time as the body is created by one's parents. God then places the soul in the body at either the time of birth or the time of birth, the time of conception, or something in between.

Option #2, Traducianism: See wiki entry. The basic idea is that both the soul and the body are created by the parents at the same time. In simple terms, your soul is derived from your parents' souls. While this position probably strikes most as odd, it does have several positive things going for it from an orthodox Christian point of view. For example, original sin and our sinful nature become easy to explain, you simply inherit it from your parents. It also gets God out of the business of creating souls, which makes free will much more easy to explain as God is no longer creating and presumably foreordaining your soul.

I agree with others that the LDS view while solving certain problems, tends to just kick the can down the road. Instead of asking questions about souls, one has to start asking about intelligences.

No the Catholic church does not definitively declare a human soul is created at conception, it is quite clear in stating we can not know when a soul is created.

From then Cardinal Ratzinger in INSTRUCTION ON RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE IN ITS ORIGIN
AND ON THE DIGNITY OF PROCREATION
REPLIES TO CERTAIN QUESTIONS OF THE DAY

? That says clearly to me, the soul is present at the first appearance of human life. Also, the CCC:


1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in "seeking and loving what is true and good"

I think divine equality is a concept humans create to explain the apparent inequality in persons. It seems to me that if god is creating diverse souls, to create one that has less integrity than another, or has a laziness trait, that would make them not very equal.

If a soul can exist outside of its body.....between death and the resurrection, then body and spirit as one incorporate essence is confusing.

Perhaps it isn't understood, from a Christian POV, there is no inequality. All people possess an inherent dignity, that is part of who they are, as God created them. From conception to grave, from the most pure to the most violent criminal. Christians are called to see everyone through the eyes of Jesus Christ. Christ died for ALL. No one is without sin.

Hi Aristotle, I've had a few go-rounds in the past over on MADB on this subject, The genesis of the soul. I agree, that's exactly what it does, just adds another step to locating where the soul got its birth.

I hadn't heard of #2, But still, I keep coming back to.....unless the soul is personally responsible for creating its own personality traits.....which it can't, it can never be held accountable for the hand it was dealt.

tana, we've always existed, as 'souls'. There was no creation of our souls. That's the one truth JSJr actually figured out and shared with us. Correspondingly, there will be no end or disintegration of the soul. We're stuck with who we are. Live with it--forever--well, at least until we shuck off this mortal coil--when there will be nothing.

The creation of the soul is only of true interest in perhaps informing us of what might yet happen in the future to us. Nothing. So how/when we were created is of no use whatsoever.

CC, thanks for the post. I guess this is the main reason I choose 'oneness theory' (Buddhism).... Because of the paradox I see in locating a genesis of the soul.

Sock, I'm thinking, death of the ego might be my equal to your 'nothing'. Can you work with that?

The phrase "A personal presence" is used instead of the word "soul" for a reason, The Magisterum has not expressly committed itself to an affirmation of a philosophical nature. Does God create a soul for a 4 week old embryo that is so genetically deficient that it can't create a human body capable of even making it through a pregnancy and is spontaneously aborted? The Church doesn't know and so doesn't say that a soul is created at conception. And that in no way affects the abortion debate, the Church does definitively declare abortion is a mortal sin at any stage of development even without complete knowledge.

But again, If God is directly, purposefully, hands on creating each specific soul......and it doesn't really matter when...... why create souls that need tested, rated and sorted? If God is creating souls and putting them in bodies to be tested, it seems logical that he would make them equal and perfect. (and they certainly don't seem to be) If they are equal and perfect, why would they need sorted? Why create souls that he seemingly must know will be destined for eternal doom? What could god possibly get out of such a venture? How does a perfect being need anything in the first place?

I don't really know much about the non-LDS Christian God, but If God is an entity on a level that humans can never attain, What's he/it up to? Entertainment? Seriously, this is my primary question- What else could it be besides entertainment?