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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:55 pm 
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Rambo wrote:
that if I don't except your definition of Jesus that I won't be saved?

no

Rambo wrote:
Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them? I know this is a mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.

Just because one defines themselves as "Christian" doesn't mean they have to also follow a specific brand of Christianity. To answer your question, I am a Christian because I believe Jesus Christ was God, but I also don't discount God was also Buddah. If life is a lesson to the soul, this all-or-nothing approach to religion boxes one in with the given stereotype. I don't believe in hell, because the entire concept doesn't make sense, so IMO no one goes to hell.

Rambo wrote:
in the earth being 6000 years old?

Moot. I had a friend ask me whether I believed that God planted the fossils just to F with us. I thought about it, and concluded it was a possibility. In this scenario, who was technically "right" in their beliefs... the Atheist or the Christian? If the answer is it didn't matter, then there's your answer.

Rambo wrote:
man being around for 6000 years?

see above.

Rambo wrote:
a global flood?

No... it's a metaphor.

Rambo wrote:
that you need to be baptized?

no

Rambo wrote:
that sex before marriage is a sin?

no. Regarding sex, gay Mormons are really screwed aren't they? What an evil demon the Mormon God is, to make gay people, then condemn them for how he made them.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:39 pm 
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Aristotle Smith wrote:
It is a possibility that every person on Earth might be saved, Jesus' work makes that a possibility. But I do believe in libertarian free will, which means that not everyone is guaranteed to make that choice. Going to hell will be an individual's choice, not God's. This is what C.S. Lewis was getting at when he said that the doors to hell are locked from the inside.

Of course even though it's not guaranteed that everyone will "make that choice," everyone still could make that choice.

Aristotle, are you saying that you simply don't know whether or not everyone will escape Hell? That it's possible that everyone (including Judas Iscariot, of whom Jesus Himself said, "it had been good for that man if he had not been born") might repent and therefore make it into Heaven, but that it's also possible (as far as you know) that there might be some people who end up spending the rest of eternity in Hell?

Also, how intense is the suffering people go through in Hell? Is it true for every person that ends up in Hell that "it had been good for that" person if s/he "had not been born"?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:31 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
Aristotle, are you saying that you simply don't know whether or not everyone will escape Hell?


I suspect that not everyone will escape Hell, but it's not my decision to make.

KevinSim wrote:
That it's possible that everyone (including Judas Iscariot, of whom Jesus Himself said, "it had been good for that man if he had not been born") might repent and therefore make it into Heaven, but that it's also possible (as far as you know) that there might be some people who end up spending the rest of eternity in Hell?


See previous response.

KevinSim wrote:
Also, how intense is the suffering people go through in Hell?


I have no idea what Hell is like.

KevinSim wrote:
Is it true for every person that ends up in Hell that "it had been good for that" person if s/he "had not been born"?


See previous.

Also, could you please stop using bold italics? Please?


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:44 am 
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thews wrote:
no. Regarding sex, gay Mormons are really screwed aren't they? What an evil demon the Mormon God is, to make gay people, then condemn them for how he made them.

It's the Biblical Christian God, not the Mormon one, that condemns people for things they have no control over. The Mormon God takes all things into consideration, and judges each person accordingly.

Assuming, of course, that He really judges people at all. I am of the opinion that the real harsh judge for each individual is the individual, and that God is more a spiritual physician, treating people for spiritual diseases, than He is a ruthless magistrate. Hell is not so much a place of torment as it is a state of mind; people are in Hell because their consciences put them in Hell, and because those people are reluctant to take God's medicine that will cure them; and they will only stay in Hell until they can bring themselves to accept that medicine.

I'm also not convinced that God did consciously make gay people. I tend to think God started the Universe going, but I'm aware of no compelling argument that God can afford to micromanage the Universe so completely that He can determine who's going to be gay and who's going to be straight.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 7:51 am 
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Aristotle Smith wrote:
I suspect that not everyone will escape Hell, but it's not my decision to make.

Aristotle, let's assume for a moment that there is someone (like Judas Iscariot, for example) who is not going to escape Hell. Why doesn't God, at some point in the future, cause that someone to cease to exist? What good does God accomplish by letting that someone keep existing, if all s/he is going to do is suffer in Hell?

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"I think Bazooka is either just trying to annoy you by insisting you're using circular reasoning, or he doesn't understand what circular reasoning is." Chomsky


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:08 am 
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Quote:
What good does God accomplish by letting that someone keep existing, if all s/he is going to do is suffer in Hell?
I have played with that concept, but I don't consider it to be relevant to how I live my life, so I just let it be. :ugeek:

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:10 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
thews wrote:
no. Regarding sex, gay Mormons are really screwed aren't they? What an evil demon the Mormon God is, to make gay people, then condemn them for how he made them.

It's the Biblical Christian God, not the Mormon one, that condemns people for things they have no control over. The Mormon God takes all things into consideration, and judges each person accordingly.

I'm glad you acknowledge that the Mormon God and Christian God are different. You can be a openly gay Christian. You cannot be an openly gay Mormon.

KevinSim wrote:
Assuming, of course, that He really judges people at all. I am of the opinion that the real harsh judge for each individual is the individual, and that God is more a spiritual physician, treating people for spiritual diseases, than He is a ruthless magistrate. Hell is not so much a place of torment as it is a state of mind; people are in Hell because their consciences put them in Hell, and because those people are reluctant to take God's medicine that will cure them; and they will only stay in Hell until they can bring themselves to accept that medicine.

ok

KevinSim wrote:
I'm also not convinced that God did consciously make gay people. I tend to think God started the Universe going, but I'm aware of no compelling argument that God can afford to micromanage the Universe so completely that He can determine who's going to be gay and who's going to be straight.

What God wants, God gets. God doesn't make mistakes, but Mormonism teaches its members that God screws up all the time, which is why their doctrine has to change. To say God didn't consciously make gay people is a ridiculous position.

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:23 am 
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BartBurk wrote:

I do not know how Christ will save non-Christians, but the Catholic Church makes it clear that God can do it. God desires everyone to be saved and has the power to save everyone, so obviously God can do what he desires whether or not we understand it. We at least can hope for the salvation of all, but I can't control whether or not an individual person actually turns to God. Catholics believe a person has to come to God before death. What happens in those last moments between life and death is a mystery -- some have speculated that Christ comes to everyone just prior to death with one last opportunity to follow Him whether they have accepted Him or not up to that point. If a person simply has the desire to be saved at death and turns to Christ, Christ will do the rest. I suspect it is possible that some might reject that invitation, but I'm not sure why they would. That doesn't mean they receive a get out of jail free card -- all of us will have to go through purification to the extent we haven't prepared ourselves to enter God's presence. I actually tend to believe in Christian Universalism, but my belief is more of a hope than a certainty.

The rest of your questions don't cause me much concern except I do believe that sex is meant to be limited to relations in a marriage between one woman and one man. Most of us fall short of the ideal at one time or another.


:) I agree with you. I'll only add, Hope for a Christian is not the sort of hope that is wishing for something to happen that may or may not. Christian Hope has a name, Jesus Christ, Who is the sort of Hope that is trustworthy and sure.

The opening paragraph of Pope Benedict XVI's encyclical "Spe Salvi":

Quote:
“SPE SALVI facti sumus”—in hope we were saved, says Saint Paul to the Romans, and likewise to us (Rom 8:24). According to the Christian faith, “redemption”—salvation—is not simply a given. Redemption is offered to us in the sense that we have been given hope, trustworthy hope, by virtue of which we can face our present: the present, even if it is arduous, can be lived and accepted if it leads towards a goal, if we can be sure of this goal, and if this goal is great enough to justify the effort of the journey. Now the question immediately arises: what sort of hope could ever justify the statement that, on the basis of that hope and simply because it exists, we are redeemed? And what sort of certainty is involved here?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Hey Rambo :smile:

Rambo wrote:
that if I don't except your definition of Jesus that I won't be saved?


No Sir!

Quote:
Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them?


I believe that there will be a plethora of people in heaven who had never heard of Jesus, or the Bible, while they lived their life on this earth.

Quote:
I know this is a mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.


I would suggest that having a "good answer" is heavily dependent upon and greatly influenced by the personal bias, beliefs, and opinions of the particular ears who hear an answer.

Quote:
in the earth being 6000 years old?


I consider my beloved young earth Christian friends my brother's and sister's in Christ and although I take no firm stand on the age of the earth either way, I find their positions to be extremely fascinating, deeply interesting, and at the very least worthy of strong consideration.

Quote:
man being around for 6000 years?


See last answer :smile:

Quote:
a global flood?


I do believe in a catastrophic global flood.

Quote:
that you need to be baptized?


If you are suggesting that you need to be baptized to be saved....... then no. I believe that God (Jesus is God IMO) has and will continue to shower us all with his enormous love and grace and that there will be loads and loads of us broken humans littered all over the KIngdom of Heaven.

Quote:
that sex before marriage is a sin?


Is there sex after marriage? :smile:


If I may add:
It is my opinion that we don't/can't earn our way into the Kingdom of God. We are all (on at least some levels) broken sinners and deeply in need to repent.....But it is through God (Jesus IMO) that we all might find our way, by His Grace and by His Love, HOME!

Peace,
Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:29 am 
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MCB wrote:
I have played with that concept, but I don't consider it to be relevant to how I live my life, so I just let it be. :ugeek:

Is it relevant to how you live your life to know whether the deity you worship is good or evil? Whether that deity is always telling you the truth or whether s/he might at some times be deceiving you?

If one can't know that a good deity would cause the souls in Hell to cease to exist, if said deity had the power to do that, then what can one know for sure about a good deity?

And if the answer to that question is that one can't know anything for sure about a good deity, then isn't each believer kind of just flipping a coin? That believer chooses to worship someone without having any idea whether that someone is good or evil?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:43 am 
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thews wrote:
I'm glad you acknowledge that the Mormon God and Christian God are different.

I'm more than happy to acknowledge that there are vast differences between God as Biblical Christians understand Him and God as Latter-day Saints understand Him.

thews wrote:
You can be a openly gay Christian. You cannot be an openly gay Mormon.

You can be an openly gay Mormon. You just cannot be sexually active without risking your membership in the Mormon Church.

thews wrote:
What God wants, God gets. God doesn't make mistakes, but Mormonism teaches its members that God screws up all the time, which is why their doctrine has to change. To say God didn't consciously make gay people is a ridiculous position.

What's so ridiculous about it? Why should I believe that what God wants God gets? What God wants is people who will use their free will to choose to follow Him, but the LDS Church teaches it's impossible, even for God, to create intelligent people out of nothing, so God has to content Himself with the intelligent people that actually exist in spirit form. God cannot create out of nothing people who will use their free will to follow Him, so God doesn't always get what He wants.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:28 am 
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Quote:
If one can't know that a good deity would cause the souls in Hell to cease to exist, if said deity had the power to do that, then what can one know for sure about a good deity?
If a person, believing in the fires of hell, chooses to repair their life, and later makes it to the point that their motivation is to be with God and please and honor God, how can you say that belief in the fires of hell is the same thing as believing in an evil God? My God is a just God, and judges all according to factors which we only understand dimly.

My personal theology is consistent with pragmatics. Like I said, it doesn't make a difference in how I live my life.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 4:36 pm 
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MCB wrote:
If a person, believing in the fires of hell, chooses to repair their life, and later makes it to the point that their motivation is to be with God and please and honor God, how can you say that belief in the fires of hell is the same thing as believing in an evil God?

I didn't say that "belief in the fires of hell is the same thing as believing in an evil God." What I did was ask you, if "one can't know that a good deity would cause the souls in Hell to cease to exist, if said deity had the power to do that, then what can one know for sure about a good deity?" MCB, do you have an answer to that question?

MCB wrote:
My God is a just God, and judges all according to factors which we only understand dimly.

What do you mean by "understand dimly"? Are you saying that you don't understand entirely why justice requires God to let some people suffer unbearable agony for the rest of eternity? If that's true, then how do you know that justice does require God to let those people suffer? How do you know that he that inspires Biblical Christianity really is the good God that controls the universe, and isn't instead a possibly supernaturally powerful, evil impostor?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Of myself, I know very little at all. Many things I simply have to accept on faith.

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I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 6:45 pm 
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MCB wrote:
Of myself, I know very little at all. Many things I simply have to accept on faith.

If you don't know that the (potentially supernaturally powerful) being who inspired your faith is in fact the good God that controls the universe, then the possibility exists that that being isn't that good God. And you're comfortable with that?

Why in the world would the good God who controls the universe want you to have faith in someone who might be that good God but who might also be an evil impostor?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Well, if you want to get nasty about it, I don't believe in the Mormon god. He is an evil imposter.

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I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 7:06 pm 
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MCB wrote:
Well, if you want to get nasty about it, I don't believe in the Mormon god. He is an evil imposter.

I had no intent to "get nasty"; I just wanted to get at the truth.

If you believe "the Mormon god" is an evil impostor, then I've got to ask you, what has "the Mormon god" ever done that convinced you he's evil? Has he ever done something that caused more damage to the souls of men and women than letting them spend the rest of eternity in unbearable agony, when he had the power to cause them to cease to exist at any time?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:48 pm 
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KevinSim wrote:
MCB wrote:
Well, if you want to get nasty about it, I don't believe in the Mormon god. He is an evil imposter.

I had no intent to "get nasty"; I just wanted to get at the truth.

If you believe "the Mormon god" is an evil impostor, then I've got to ask you, what has "the Mormon god" ever done that convinced you he's evil? Has he ever done something that caused more damage to the souls of men and women than letting them spend the rest of eternity in unbearable agony, when he had the power to cause them to cease to exist at any time?


I'd have to answer no to this question.
On the basis that it really isn't clear that the God of Mormonism has done much of anything at all.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:30 am 
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Drifting wrote:
I'd have to answer no to this question.
On the basis that it really isn't clear that the God of Mormonism has done much of anything at all.

Nonetheless, it's better for one to do nothing than it is for one to let a single soul suffer unbearable agony forever, when one has the power to cause that soul to cease to exist.

I don't personally believe the God of Mormonism has done nothing; I believe He's done a lot. But one thing you can't accuse Him of is unnecessarily prolonging the suffering of the unsaved.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:32 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
Drifting wrote:
I'd have to answer no to this question.
On the basis that it really isn't clear that the God of Mormonism has done much of anything at all.

Nonetheless, it's better for one to do nothing than it is for one to let a single soul suffer unbearable agony forever, when one has the power to cause that soul to cease to exist.

I don't personally believe the God of Mormonism has done nothing; I believe He's done a lot. But one thing you can't accuse Him of is unnecessarily prolonging the suffering of the unsaved.


What do you think He's done?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:03 am 
abstract
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KevinSim wrote:
thews wrote:
I'm glad you acknowledge that the Mormon God and Christian God are different.

I'm more than happy to acknowledge that there are vast differences between God as Biblical Christians understand Him and God as Latter-day Saints understand Him.

The LDS version of Jesus Christ is a "personage" that is distinctly different than the Christian theology.


KevinSim wrote:
thews wrote:
You can be a openly gay Christian. You cannot be an openly gay Mormon.

You can be an openly gay Mormon. You just cannot be sexually active without risking your membership in the Mormon Church.

You're just using wordplay to attempt to make a point here. Let me rephrase: You can be an openly gay sexually active Christian. You cannot be an openly gay sexually active Mormon.

KevinSim wrote:
thews wrote:
What God wants, God gets. God doesn't make mistakes, but Mormonism teaches its members that God screws up all the time, which is why their doctrine has to change. To say God didn't consciously make gay people is a ridiculous position.

What's so ridiculous about it? Why should I believe that what God wants God gets? What God wants is people who will use their free will to choose to follow Him, but the LDS Church teaches it's impossible, even for God, to create intelligent people out of nothing, so God has to content Himself with the intelligent people that actually exist in spirit form. God cannot create out of nothing people who will use their free will to follow Him, so God doesn't always get what He wants.

As I have pointed out, the LDS church teaches its members that God is not perfect. This is how the doctrine change in 1978 is packaged. If you wish to believe that a God who created you and the entire universe make mistakes that justify your need explain issues, then go ahead, but it doesn't make sense. Someday you may wish to actually question the things about LDS theology that don't make any sense at all and quit attempting to rationalize an excuse to cover it. Mormon doctrine comes from the magical occult seer stones Joseph Smith owned and placed in his stove-pipe hat used to see evil treasure guardians for hire before there ever was the supposed golden plates, and if you're good with that, along with an incorrectly "translated" pagan document from the book of the dead to come up with the Book of Abraham, then it's hardly surprising that your logic includes a God that's inherently flawed.

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