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 Post subject: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:24 pm 
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that if I don't except your definition of Jesus that I won't be saved?

Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them? I know this is a Mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.

in the earth being 6000 years old?

man being around for 6000 years?

a global flood?

that you need to be baptized?

that sex before marriage is a sin?


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Rambo wrote:
that if I don't except your definition of Jesus that I won't be saved?


This is probably the question deserving of the most nuanced answer. To keep it simple I'll just say "No."

Rambo wrote:
Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them? I know this is a Mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.


I believe there will be plenty of people in heaven who never heard of Jesus.

Rambo wrote:
in the earth being 6000 years old?


No.

Rambo wrote:
man being around for 6000 years?


I assume you mean man being around for only 6,000 years, but not more. No.

Rambo wrote:
a global flood?


No.

Rambo wrote:
that you need to be baptized?


No.

Rambo wrote:
that sex before marriage is a sin?


Yes.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Thanks AS.

Would you be able to expand on some of your answers?

Like how am I able to make it to heaven without your Jesus? Don't I need to except him?

How do other people make it to heaven without excepting Jesus?

Isn't your doctrine that you must except Jesus to make it to heaven?

How come you don't believe in a global flood when it says it in the bible?

Why don't you believe in humans being around for 6000 years when according to the bible the first humans Adam and Eve were born/created 6000 years ago?

These are all surprising answers to me.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:56 pm 
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There is no heaven

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:28 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
There is no heaven

Thank God.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Rambo wrote:
Like how am I able to make it to heaven without your Jesus? Don't I need to except him?

How do other people make it to heaven without excepting Jesus?


There are lots of ways to approach this question. One that is reasonably easy to understand and also pretty approachable for Mormons is the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIXs5wOSVk4

There are also various approaches that fall under the rubric of Christian Inclusivism (try a Google search). Some approach this as Christian exclusivists, they just see various forms of "crypto-Christians" in other traditions. Calvinists can point out the the elect were foreordained from before creation, and who is saved is in a very real sense a mystery. Plus there are versions of Christian universalism. Karl Barth seemed to hold to a version of this idea.

Rambo wrote:
Isn't your doctrine that you must except Jesus to make it to heaven?


No, the doctrine is that salvation comes through Jesus. Saying you much accept Jesus is simply one way of putting that idea into practical terms, and one that my tradition (Methodists) doesn't emphasize much.

I think one thing that Mormons may tend to miss is that having a much different view of God and mankind makes Christians see this problem differently and give different answers.

Rambo wrote:
How come you don't believe in a global flood when it says it in the bible?


Evidence, both internal to the text and external to it, leads me to conclude there was no global flood. I simply don't think that Genesis 1-11 is meant to be history or science in the way we use those terms. You are asking a historical and scientific question, and I don't think those chapters of Genesis are addressing those concerns.

Rambo wrote:
Why don't you believe in humans being around for 6000 years when according to the bible the first humans Adam and Eve were born/created 6000 years ago?


Again, for both internal and external reasons. For two good books on how best to make sense of Genesis 1-2 I recommend John Walton's The Lost World of Genesis One and Peter Enns' The Evolution of Adam.

Rambo wrote:
These are all surprising answers to me.


I don't doubt it. I think one thing most Mormons need to realize is that lived Mormonism is a brand of Fundamentalism. Unfortunately, many conclude that all religion is Fundamentalism. There is a very large world out there of people who are both faithful believers and don't feel a need to chuck history and science out the window.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 7:52 pm 
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is the earth being 6000 years old?

Give or take 4.49997 billion years.

man being around for 6000 years?

Modern Man (AKA Pre-Nibley Man) has been around for over 200,000 years.

a global flood?

Not enough water and no drain plug.

that you need to be baptized?

Cleansing is always a good idea.

that sex before marriage is a sin?

Depends on how badly they are doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 8:01 pm 
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moksha wrote:
that sex before marriage is a sin?

Depends on how badly they are doing it.


:lol: Could a sexual offender be defined as someone who is just bad in bed?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Aristotle Smith wrote:
Calvinists can point out the the elect were foreordained from before creation, and who is saved is in a very real sense a mystery. Plus there are versions of Christian universalism.

Aristotle, what do you think about Christian universalism? Do you think it's possible that every person on Earth might end up saved, or do you think that some people will end up suffering in Hell forever?

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:40 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:
Calvinists can point out the the elect were foreordained from before creation, and who is saved is in a very real sense a mystery. Plus there are versions of Christian universalism.

Aristotle, what do you think about Christian universalism? Do you think it's possible that every person on Earth might end up saved, or do you think that some people will end up suffering in Hell forever?


Well Mormon scripture tells us that there are only two Church's.
1. The Church of the Lamb of God.
2. The Church of the devil.

The question becomes who is included in the Church of the Lamb of God?
Just Mormons, or anyone with a belief in God. If the Latter, then it kind of diminishes Mormonism's claim to be the one and only true Church on earth today.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:39 am 
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Rambo wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:
There is no heaven

Thank God.

Thank heaven.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:44 am 
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Rambo wrote:
Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them? I know this is a Mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.



I do not know how Christ will save non-Christians, but the Catholic Church makes it clear that God can do it. God desires everyone to be saved and has the power to save everyone, so obviously God can do what he desires whether or not we understand it. We at least can hope for the salvation of all, but I can't control whether or not an individual person actually turns to God. Catholics believe a person has to come to God before death. What happens in those last moments between life and death is a mystery -- some have speculated that Christ comes to everyone just prior to death with one last opportunity to follow Him whether they have accepted Him or not up to that point. If a person simply has the desire to be saved at death and turns to Christ, Christ will do the rest. I suspect it is possible that some might reject that invitation, but I'm not sure why they would. That doesn't mean they receive a get out of jail free card -- all of us will have to go through purification to the extent we haven't prepared ourselves to enter God's presence. I actually tend to believe in Christian Universalism, but my belief is more of a hope than a certainty.

The rest of your questions don't cause me much concern except I do believe that sex is meant to be limited to relations in a marriage between one woman and one man. Most of us fall short of the ideal at one time or another.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:13 am 
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KevinSim wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:
Calvinists can point out the the elect were foreordained from before creation, and who is saved is in a very real sense a mystery. Plus there are versions of Christian universalism.

Aristotle, what do you think about Christian universalism? Do you think it's possible that every person on Earth might end up saved, or do you think that some people will end up suffering in Hell forever?


It is a possibility that every person on Earth might be saved, Jesus' work makes that a possibility. But I do believe in libertarian free will, which means that not everyone is guaranteed to make that choice. Going to hell will be an individual's choice, not God's. This is what C.S. Lewis was getting at when he said that the doors to hell are locked from the inside.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:17 am 
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Rambo wrote:
Also what about the people that have never had a chance to hear of Jesus or the bible on this life. What happens to them? I know this is a Mormon question and they have the "answer" for it but I can't find any christians that have a good answer.


I've seen two general responses to this question, an Evangelical and an Orthodox. The latter emphasizes the mysteries of God and suggests it is accounted for in God's infinite wisdom (at least among those who do not outright reject the possibility of salvation). The common Evangelical answer is to cite Romans 10 and suggest that nature and the universe testify of divinity, and that all humans have the opportunity to be exposed to God and his being. Thus, no one is without excuse. I personally find the latter a bit of a reach, to put it mildly.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:42 am 
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Most Christians I know think Mormons believe in a demon posing as Jesus, thus their salvation in negated.

- VRDRC


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:21 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Most Christians I know think Mormons believe in a demon posing as Jesus, thus their salvation in negated.

- VRDRC
That is an excessive generalization. Perhaps Joseph's visions of Jesus were demonic. There is something of the demonic in Mormon theology. The nature of the Mormon Jesus is not the same as the Christian Jesus. All this requires careful analysis.

There are true Christians, however unformed, in the LDS Church. Some truly Christian concepts within Mormonism coexist with the non-Christian aspects of the religion. To tell them that their Jesus is demonic because they are Mormons would be hurtful and non-productive.

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:32 am 
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So if i don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved then why should I?

Also there are a bunch of rules to follow so why should I follow them?


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:37 am 
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Rambo wrote:
So if i don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved then why should I?

Also there are a bunch of rules to follow so why should I follow them?
I believe God judges people mercifully. Most people, exiting from Mormonism, are too confused to go directly to another religion.

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Huckelberry said:
I see the order and harmony to be the very image of God which smiles upon us each morning as we awake.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:53 am 
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moksha wrote:
that you need to be baptized?

Cleansing is always a good idea.

"With soap baptism is a good thing"

Robert Ingersoll

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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:59 am 
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Rambo wrote:
So if i don't need to believe in Jesus to be saved then why should I?


I said this is the question you asked that requires the most nuance. The reason why you should is in the nuance. To be honest, I have little faith in message board discussions to communicate nuance. An additional problem is that the nuance involves a very different picture of who Jesus was than Mormons teach and believe. My best piece of advice would be to get a book on Christian theology and read it. The need to believe in Jesus is to a large degree driven by who Jesus is/was, at least how orthodox Christians view the matter. Once you see who he was, the question either answers itself or at least becomes possible to answer.

Rambo wrote:
Also there are a bunch of rules to follow so why should I follow them?


You don't follow them and never fully will, so asking why you should follow them is kind of missing the point of Jesus' sacrifice. You should follow them because it's right, but again, you are aren't going to do that (and neither is anyone else) so that's the crux of the problem.

And that is one big area where I think the LDS church misses the point in a big way. For the most part, the LDS view of religion is all about rule following. The entire LDS narrative of "worthiness" is based on this way of thinking, one is worthy when one follows the rules. LDS talks tend to be a long list of rules to follow. The temple recommend is largely an exercise in seeing if you follow the rules.

But I don't think that's the point of Christianity. Rule following is an outgrowth of something else. A particularly American way of putting it is that religion should be about relationship (with God). Or one might say that Christianity is about justification and sanctification. A Methodist would posit holiness as the end goal of Christian living. Another way is to talk about a union with Christ as a more mystical way of putting it. But for all of these approaches, you don't get there by rule following. Rule following is a natural outgrowth of those things, done imperfectly in love and gratitude. It's like marriage, you should treat your spouse well because you love the person. If treating them well is to earn their love, then you don't have much of a marriage.


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 Post subject: Re: christians do you really believe
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:09 am 
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Thanks AS this helps me understand christians a little bit more.


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