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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:26 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:35 am 
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lulu wrote:
Please define and provide 2 examples of each:

1. heretic
2. infidel
3. pagan
4. heathen


1. Heretic -- The word heretic comes from the Greek herein, which means "to choose." Literally "heresy" is when you "choose" what to believe in, over and above established orthodoxy and/or the instructions of your spiritual father. Heresies involve specific errors regarding doctrine. Notable examples include the Arian heresy, that God the Son was created by God the Father, and the Pelagian heresy, that the mortal will is not corrupted by original sin.

2. Infidel -- non-Christian monotheists, particularly ones who have been baptized but reject ("are unfaithful to") their baptism. Most commonly this would include converts to Islam or Judaism, although it is often applied to atheists as well.

3. Pagan -- from Latin paganus, "country folk." Followers of indigenous, frequently polytheistic or animistic, religious traditions such as Shinto. Classically, the word was applied to adherents of the various Mediterranean and Egyptian mystery cults. Since the turn of the 20th century the term is also used to describe individuals who believe themselves to be continuing those polytheistic/animistic indigenous traditions.

4. Heathen -- same as pagan. However, these days Germanic Neopagans (Wotanists/Odinists) will often refer to themselves as "heathen" and to their religion as "heathenry." Generally speaking, then, "pagan" is perhaps better applied to followers of Egyptian and Mediterranean mystery cults, while "heathen" refers to followers of Nordic mystery cults; this is reflected in their respective (Latin vs. Norse/Gothic) etymologies.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 7:49 am 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
lulu wrote:
Please define and provide 2 examples of each:

1. heretic
2. infidel
3. pagan
4. heathen


1. Heretic -- The word heretic comes from the Greek herein, which means "to choose." Literally "heresy" is when you "choose" what to believe in, over and above established orthodoxy and/or the instructions of your spiritual father. Heresies involve specific errors regarding doctrine. Notable examples include the Arian heresy, that God the Son was created by God the Father, and the Pelagian heresy, that the mortal will is not corrupted by original sin.

2. Infidel -- non-Christian monotheists, particularly ones who have been baptized but reject ("are unfaithful to") their baptism. Most commonly this would include converts to Islam or Judaism, although it is often applied to atheists as well.

3. Pagan -- from Latin paganus, "country folk." Followers of indigenous, frequently polytheistic or animistic, religious traditions such as Shinto. Classically, the word was applied to adherents of the various Mediterranean and Egyptian mystery cults. Since the turn of the 20th century the term is also used to describe individuals who believe themselves to be continuing those polytheistic/animistic indigenous traditions.

4. Heathen -- same as pagan. However, these days Germanic Neopagans (Wotanists/Odinists) will often refer to themselves as "heathen" and to their religion as "heathenry." Generally speaking, then, "pagan" is perhaps better applied to followers of Egyptian and Mediterranean mystery cults, while "heathen" refers to followers of Nordic mystery cults; this is reflected in their respective (Latin vs. Norse/Gothic) etymologies.

Are Mormons heretics, infidels, pagans or heathens?
Why or why not?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:38 am 
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Quote:
Are Mormons heretics, infidels, pagans or heathens?
Why or why not?


Mormonism is a modern re-appraisal of the Hermetic Christian tradition, refracted through the lens of the European Enlightenment via the quintessential Enlightenment religion of Freemasonry. As such, Mormonism is a combination of paganism and heresy, but is not strictly delimited to either. (Mormons cannot be infidels, since they were never baptized in a proper Christian church, and the non-Christian elements are Egyptian, not Norse).

Hermetic Christianity identified Christ with the Greek god Hermes, who was further understood as a manifestation of the Egyptian god Thoth. Egyptian ritual practice centered around the idea of becoming an immortal god. Hermes/Thoth was also identified with quicksilver or Mercury (his name in Latin) and the practice of alchemy, with the stated goal of transmuting base metal--equivalently, our own base instincts--into the most highly refined form of metal, i.e. gold--equivalently, our own eternal innermost perfection.

Around the start of the 18th century, a group that we now call the Freemasons revived the study and practice of Hermetic magical rituals, wedded to the so-called "Enlightenment" ideology of rationalism and individual liberation. They claimed that their secret knowledge had always existed and that their practices were a direct continuation of Egyptian ritual practices. Personally, I am inclined to accept the idea that there is a literal link between the Masons and Egyptian death magic; the Masons claim to have received their esoteric knowledge from the Knights Templar, who encountered hidden traditions along the way the Crusades. Whether or not this is factual, though, it is indisputable that Freemasons understand their own ritual practice as an extension of Egyptian forms (the stuff about Solomon's Temple is deliberately misleading; Masonic magic is Egyptian magic, hence all the hieroglyphics in Masonic temples).

Joseph Smith was a Master Mason. His writings are full of overt references to Masonic ideas and symbolism, for those with eyes to see them. The idea of "becoming your own god" with your own planet is, essentially, the symbolism of the pyramid, and (once you've been introduced into the higher circles) the explicit goal of Masonic ritual practice. Why do you think there is such an Egyptophilic fetish among Mormons, particularly regarding the so-called "Book of Abraham," even to this day? And why do you think Amway and similar pyramid schemes thrive among Mormons? The pyramidal structure is deeply ingrained in Mormon culture. Essentially, he re-adapted the Masonic interpretation of Egyptian immortality rituals within a supposedly Christian framework.

This is why it cannot be said that Mormons are simply pagans: they can also be understood as heretics, in the sense that they consider themselves Christian, but choose to turn away from Christian orthodoxy. Mormonism must be understood with reference to Christianity; it is not simply or exclusively a form of Egyptian religion, but combines elements of both paganism and heresy. In effect, their pagan ritual practice informs their heretical theology, as for instance when they choose to reject the Trinity or choose to assert that God the Father has a physical body. In the latter case, the commitment to the Masonic/Egyptian schema of the pyramid--there is a god at the top, who is not THE god but received his divinity from A prior god, and if you follow him you too can become a god at the top of your very own pyramid--necessitates the construction of a decidedly heretical theology wherein God the Father is understood to have more or less exactly the same properties as Zeus or Hermes or Thoth.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 8:42 am 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
they can also be understood as heretics, in the sense that they consider themselves Christian, but choose to turn away from Christian orthodoxy.

Well stated and that's my point.
You are a scholar and a gentleperson.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 5:18 pm 
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So, briefly looking at Basilides, there seem to be some aspects in common with Mormonism. I see where you are heading. Good leads, thank you.

As for St. Hildegarde of Bingen, she was a Catholic mystic, definitely someone for me to look up to. Thank you for that suggestion, too.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Happy Trinity Sunday everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:39 pm 
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lulu wrote:
I'm in touch with both my femine and masculine sides.

I take it then you're a hermaphrodite?

lulu wrote:
"Answer what?" I posted a long historiographical piece on Christian theology. Oh, wait, I posted it twice. Once especially for you. If you can't find what you are to respond to, you can't find your balls with both hands.

Phrase your question and I'll answer it. If you're going to take me on little girl, you better bring the big cannon, because unlike you clucking hen, I have balls.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:43 pm 
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thews wrote:
...
I have balls.


The wulffmorgenthaler caricature below depicts royal genitals. Open it on Your own risk.
http://wulffmorgenthaler.com/img/strip/ ... 110630.jpg

As You know (or don't...) once in a time I was banned for a week because of genitals/breasts on caricatures and/or because of Michelengelo's David's uncircumcised dick.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 2:49 am 
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MCB wrote:
Missed a step. Under options, board preferences. Then edit global.
Got it. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:05 am 
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lulu wrote:
Happy Trinity Sunday everyone.


LOL. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:34 am 
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madeleine wrote:
lulu wrote:
Happy Trinity Sunday everyone.


LOL. :lol:
Worst sermon I've heard at the particular church I attended. Preached about Queen Elizabeth. Now I realize that Episcopalians have this Angophile think. But trying to connect Queen Elizabeth with the Trinity is pretty much impossible. As the preacher convincingly proved.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:59 am 
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lulu wrote:
Worst sermon I've heard at the particular church I attended. Preached about Queen Elizabeth. Now I realize that Episcopalians have this Angophile think. But trying to connect Queen Elizabeth with the Trinity is pretty much impossible. As the preacher convincingly proved.[/color]


Well, it is the King's Church. :P

The hymns at Mass, all about the Trinity. Mormons would change the lyrics, like they did with St. Francis' Canticle of the Sun (All Creatures of Our God and King) and then ask, "How can you say we aren't Christian?"

Mormons worship a different God, or Gods, depending on which Mormon you ask. I don't know of any religion that includes the gods of others just so one doesn't feel excluded.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:10 pm 
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lulu wrote:
Worst sermon I've heard at the particular church I attended. Preached about Queen Elizabeth. Now I realize that Episcopalians have this Angophile think. But trying to connect Queen Elizabeth with the Trinity is pretty much impossible. As the preacher convincingly proved.

Still waiting my little beotch. What is your question regarding Mormonism is not Christian?

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 11:24 am 
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You don't know that, Nobody knows for sure, You weren't there.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:50 pm 
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thews wrote:
Still waiting my little beotch. What is your question regarding Mormonism is not Christian?

Let's get one thing straight at the outset, thews, I'm not a little bitch. I'm a big bitch. There's a big difference. Learn it.

The question: What is your specific substantive response to each separate issue raised in the following, now posted for a 3rd time in this thread


lulu wrote:
While you are beating your chest about Trinitarianism and Mormons not being Christians, you are ignoring a whole load of Christian history. Christianity never was a unitary movement so give up on it. There’s never been one sole, solitary person who got to decide who is Christian and who isn’t. Although a good war could sometimes settle it.

Some people were heretics and some weren’t, but if you proclaimed ”belief in Jesus,” whatever that meant, you were a Christian. You might be a heretic, but you were a Christian.

Were historical Jesus and historical Judas on the same page? Were the Ebionites down with Paul? The principal way that Peter and Paul got along with each other is that they almost never had to see each other. Which ones were Christians and which ones weren’t? Support your answer. Then you can tell me whether Montanists and Manacheans were Christians.

Is it consistent that you could be a non-Trinitarian Christian before Nicaea but not after? Arians sacked Rome but they weren’t Christians, right?

Thought your priest should be personally worthy before your baptism would be effective? You’d make a fine Donatist, the first Protestants before there were even Protestants. If Christianity has never been unified, who has the power, and on what basis are you going to decide who is and who is not a Christian. With the use of a sharp sword, you might make some headway on who is a heretic, but by definition, a heretic is a Christian.

Then you have a whole lot of Gnostics who weren’t even sure that Jesus was really “man.” Then you’ve got Paulicians, Bogomils, Cathars and Albigensians. May they rest in peace.

You can then go down the list of Christological heresies but when the clergy went home east from Nicaea, they preached a Trinitarianism that still looked a whole lot more like homoiousian than homoousian. And the only thing that saved the not so far Easterners for centuries is they could always claim that it was just tough to get Greek to align with Latin.

What did the “Christians” in Persia think? Is “essence” the same as “substance?” Can you cram a non-Chalcedonian Christ in to the Western understanding of the Creed? Nestor couldn’t.

What did the 6th century Christians in western China think? How do you say homoiousian in Mandarin? As far as we know, they didn’t have the Creed. They we too busy thinking about how one could be attached to Christ without being attached.

You can stick a Filioque in there too.

Where’s Waldo? Another Protestant before there were Protestants, he’s off being influenced by the Cathars and Albigensians. Does it matter? Well Waldensians deeply influenced Jan Hus, who met the fiery stake in the era of the 3 competing Popes. Hus deeply influenced the Anabaptists. Some Anabaptists claim a chain of ordination all the way back to the Waldensians. Anabaptists were the first in Europe (the world?) to argue for the separation of church and state, long, long before the French Enlightenment. And ignore the fact that you couldn’t get most of their Christology into the Creed with a giant shoe horn. Oh, they thought the only believers should be baptized, pretty much the biggest religious idea in the good old US of A and an idea the Donatists would be comfortable with. But are Anabaptists Christians?

Disciples of Christ/Church of Christ (Christian) where the Bible is silent, we are silent. Guess they are not Christian they couldn’t care less about the Creed.

Christadelphians, check
Oneness Pentecostals, check
Christian Scientists, check
John Locke, check
Issac Newton, check
Benjamin Franklin, check
Thomas Jefferson, check

Apart from a few generals, who has ever had the power to declare who is, or is not, Christian?

Nobody.

Christianity has always been a vast movement with some connection to Jesus, who may, or may not have existed in any meaningful way in connection with Christianity.

So when you say that Mormons are not Trinitarians, what is your point? The statement is tautological.

When you say Mormons aren’t Christians, you don’t understand Christian history. It makes no more sense than saying that Peter, James and John were Mormons.

lulu - heretically

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 12:43 am 
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lulu, I understand your point, but I think you are slightly misinterpreting the historical record. The point is not that there weren't, for a period of some centuries after the Resurrection, multiple competing Christianities, some of which (like Mormonism) had more in common with pagan mystery cults than with orthodox Apostolic Christianity.

The whole point of the Councils was to establish the limits of orthodoxy, i.e. what "counts" as Christianity. Period. Various Church Fathers may or may not have espoused views that ran contrary to one or more tenets of what eventually became orthodoxy, but that is immaterial to the question of what defines Christianity--what defines Christianity is the authority of Jesus Christ, handed down to the Apostles, and from them to the bishops who sat in council and hammered out the structure of Christianity.

Even before them, however, the early Church Fathers were railing against individuals who claimed to be "Christian," claimed to lead Christian rituals, but had not received empowerment from a bishop. In other words, even before the Councils, the limits of what counted as "Christian" were strictly set by the authority of the Apostles. So even if there was, early on, a profusion of competing Christianities, "Christianity" as such always self-consciously looked back to the authority of the Apostles. Some of those early "Christianities" were therefore not properly "Christian," because they fell outside the bounds of Apostolic tradition. In essentially the same way, and for essentially the same reasons, Mormonism is not Christian any more than Zeus-worship or Shiva-worship is Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 3:57 am 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
In essentially the same way, and for essentially the same reasons, Mormonism is not Christian any more than Zeus-worship or Shiva-worship is Christian.

Zeus-worship and Shiva-worship doesn't worship Jesus. Mormons are heretics. They are not pagans or heathens.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:54 am 
lulu wrote:
Samantabhadra wrote:
In essentially the same way, and for essentially the same reasons, Mormonism is not Christian any more than Zeus-worship or Shiva-worship is Christian.

Zeus-worship and Shiva-worship doesn't worship Jesus. Mormons are heretics. They are not pagans or heathens.

Yes. I agree with this. Mormons are heretics, the same way the Gnostics are heretics.

Actually, the Mormon claim is that Mormonism is the ONLY form of Orthodox Christianity...that the apostles in the LDS Church are the ONLY ones with proper authority to lead Christ's church.

This, to me, would be a heretical position to the other Christian sects who claim to be Orthodox.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:17 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Yes. I agree with this. Mormons are heretics, the same way the Gnostics are heretics.

But in regards to Mormonism, the oldest and biggest Christian denominations want to create a new category: "non-heathen, non-pagan, non-Christian." And do so without facing directly the issue that they are creating a new category.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 5:24 am 
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I see it as a problem of degree. Against the "gold standard," Mormonism is just too far out there. Perhaps if some Catholic theologian might some day invent a scale by which one could quantify divergence from the standard, we would see that Mormonism occupies a place that has been unoccupied since 300 AD (unless you would count the more esoteric units within Masonry). But it would be difficult, because of the Gnostic character of Mormonism, to use anything more than a range score, because of the variations within, and the lack of stable doctrine. Mormonism is today closer to the standard than it was in the 1900's (thank God!!) but that is because of the influence of the larger society. I am mostly concerned about the residuals of 19th century Mormonism.


The different Trinity is just another residual from the multiplicity of gods of the nineteenth century. I don't think that is the worst of the problems.

LULU, how come we think alike so much?

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