It is currently Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:08 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 202 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:23 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:08 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: We Have Always Been At War with Eastasia
Are Alawites Moslems?

Be careful, both sides are armed.

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:01 am 
Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:


Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities, and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.

I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.

How am I doing?

Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:18 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 2476
liz3564 wrote:
Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:


Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities,


That's the kicker, no doubt. We worship a different God. I wouldn't say a Hindu is a Christian, they worship different gods than I do. As do Mormons. That doesn't mean I hate Hindus, or Mormons. Who is being worshipped is very central to what defines a religion.

Quote:
and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father


We don't call the Son "Father".

Quote:
, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.


Christians, not just Catholics, view Satan as a fallen angel. The difference is in how we view what angels are. They are a different creation, spirit in form. They aren't human, never were human, never will be human. Christians don't hold an idea that creatures change from one form to another, not any more than you could say a dog can become a cat and then go back to being a dog.

Quote:
I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.


No doubt, thinking that you are punky gods in training is not Christian. Not even for Catholics and Orthodox who believe in the beatific vision and theosis (respectively). Some Mormons confuse their doctrines of becoming gods with ours, but they are very different, beginning with the same problem as stated for angels. We don't switch natures. The created can never be the Creator, or a creator.


Quote:
Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.


I think the underlying problem is, Mormons deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, which is paramount to Christian belief. Central in every way. The other is the why of the atonement. Mormons believe it is so they progress, Jesus being some kind of god-enabler. Christians believe by one's man transgression all fell, by another Man's Sacrifice all were raised up to be children of God, BY ADOPTION.

The Mormon view of Jesus as just another spirit child of God is problematic for Christians.

_________________
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:35 am 
abstract
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 3054
liz3564 wrote:
Here are some thoughts that I posted from my site. We have a similar thread:

Subject: Re: Does Mormonism Fit Under The Umbrella Of Christianity?

I think that it honestly depends on how large of an umbrella we are talking about, and that is where the debate occurs.

Disagree. Mormon doctrine isn't Christian to non-Mormons... that's why they are called "Mormons" to define the doctrine they accept.

liz3564 wrote:
I think that if we are talking about a broad structure of churches, both orthodox and unorthodox, that worship Jesus, then the LDS Church qualifies. However, since the LDS Church has unorthodox tenets, it would NOT fall under the umbrella of orthodox Christian churches.

Again, Mormon doctrine is exclusive to the LDS faith. To imply it's Christian, even remotely, also implies the Christian faith accepts the Mormon theology of Joseph Smith. There is only one faith that accepts Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (although there are breakdowns of different sects), and all of those sects fall under the "Mormon" umbrella. There is no gray here... "Christians" reject Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God.

liz3564 wrote:
It seems that the deciding factor between orthodox and unorthodox Christian churches seems to be the issue of the Trinity. Since the LDS religion views the Trinity differently from other Christian churches in the sense that we view the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as three distinct, separate entities, and also that we refer to Christ as our older brother rather than our father, the LDS Church is unorthodox. Also, the whole story of the pre-existence where we view Satan and Jesus as brothers, but Satan as fallen is again, unorthodox. Don't Catholics view Satan as a fallen angel, though? I was always unsure about that.

You're straining to find some sort of parallel that fits an argument that's supposedly relevant. Answer this question: Do you accept Joseph Smith as a prophet of God? If you do, then you're a Mormon. Mormons are not Christians, because Christians are not Mormons. You imply the differences in core doctrine is subtle, choosing to dissect the differences in Christian theology is somehow relevant, when it's not. The crux of the definition lies in the doctrine that's rejected and not accepted, especially when all of Mormon doctrine is rejects by Christian faiths, to include the JST revised bible.

liz3564 wrote:
I think the final point of unorthodoxy with LDS is the fact that we believe that we have the potential to become Gods, like our Heavenly Father is. The orthodox view is that those who live the commandments and accept Christ will be able to dwell with him forever in happiness, but will not be what He is, as no one can be what He is.

Dead dunking, Kolob, Masonic rituals, magical seer stones, incorrectly translated pagan documents, polygamy in heaven and about a billion other things define Mormonism as completely different than Christianity, and that's because it's not Christian in any way, shape or form. Notice how you aren't using similarities in your arguments between Christian theology and Mormon theology, and that's because they are worlds apart.

liz3564 wrote:
How am I doing?

Poorly. You're a Christian who can't admit to the world you think Joseph Smith was a charlatan, so you continue to pose these ridiculous arguments to appease your stance that you can practice Christianity in a Mormon church. You're not a Christian if you profess to believe in the truth claims of Joseph Smith, and you're simply not being honest if you don't believe in the truth claims of Joseph Smith, yet pretend you do.

liz3564 wrote:
Where LDS get offended and confused about this type of categorization is that there are also ways that we actually DO fit in the same category.

No there aren't any ways that Joseph Smith, a false prophet of God, is part of the Christian faith. Mormons used to like to be called Mormons, because that's what they are.

liz3564 wrote:
For instance, we believe that Christ came to the earth, that he died for us, that he performed miracles, that he spoke the truth when he preached, and hold His teachings, such as the beattitudes, just as dear as any other Christian.

Using "we" in the above includes you as one who believes in the truth claims of Joseph Smith. I'm calling you out here Liz, and that's because you're lying. If you do believe in Joseph Smith's truth claims, please state that in this thread and I will promptly apologize. I'm not wrong here, but all you have to do is state how you genuinely believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and I am prepared to eat crow. I expect you to do what you always do, which is just run away and make the same ridiculous arguments later.

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 1:24 pm 
Thews, you and I will never agree because you view things as very black and white. It is either all or nothing with you, and that is just not the way I see things. I don't see how that makes me a liar. I am, and have always been truthful about what I believe. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes, however, he made some HUGE ERRORS and sinned, much like the prophet, David did. (of David and Bathsheba). I believe that Fanny Alger was Joseph's Bathsheba. And after Fanny, his judgment was never the same.

Does that mean that there aren't some concepts of Christ that are similar between how Mormons and Christians view Christ? I don't think so. Thews, don't you believe that Christ came to earth? So do I. Do you believe He died for our sins? So do I. Do you believe in the beauty of his Sermon on the Mount? So do I.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 2:58 pm 
World's Top Zion Scientist
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 1:11 pm
Posts: 9548
Location: North Side of The Apocalrock
thews wrote:
What a preposterous analogy. Your Beatles analogy would also include Jews, so your argument must be that Jews are Christians too. According to Joseph Smith, all Christian religions are wrong, so to label Mormonism "Christianity" makes as much sense as Christians labeling Judaism Christianity because Jews accept part of the Christian doctrine. The important factor in this definition is what doctrine the religion rejects, and all Christian religions reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false.

I thought I just proved that there are no Christian churches, not yet. Everyone made up their own religion off the legacy of Christ who pretend today to be Christian, Mormons too.

And of course the Jews were even more the original Christians. The Old Testament Saints and prophets were Christians whom the Lord gave a new heart to. Same gospel. They forsook the world of Belial and were no longer counted the children of Belial, as with Hannah the mother of Samuel, and as when the Lord gave Saul a new heart and he prophecied among the prophets. The gifts of Pentecost are precisely what the Old Testament Jews were receiving to be prophets.

How could they have rejected their Messiah if they were not his people and hence the Jew are today a very screwed up version of original Christianity. And the popular Christians today are a scewed up version of fast food Jesus, thank you very much, and the Mormons are a screwed up version of Christianity where the Lord gave them strong delusion that they believe a lie.....We can become God........because they did not love the truth and rejected Christ commandments to bring forth and establish his Zion against the evil day of Satan's lying wonders that we all live in presently. ugh!

Thanks a heck of a lot you wiener Mormons who coward out of Zion and let the world fall into the chains of darkness we all suffer under today. Just try and come unto Christ successfully in this day and age, I double dare you. You have no clue how and never will. Let the Lord bring his Zion from where he took it that he might have a people waiting for him when he returns. ain't nobody here gonna get up to speed. YOU JUST DO NOT CARE EVEN SLIGHTLY putzes!

_________________
Vindicate Joseph Smith: BECOME ZION
http://apocalblog.blogspot.com/.

My YouTube videos:HERE
PDF Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology:HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:28 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:08 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: We Have Always Been At War with Eastasia
Were the Bogomils Christians?

_________________
"And the human knew the source of life, the woman of him, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, 'I have procreated a man with Yahweh.'" Gen. 4:1, interior quote translated by D. Bokovoy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 5:57 pm 
abstract
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 3054
liz3564 wrote:
Thews, you and I will never agree because you view things as very black and white. It is either all or nothing with you, and that is just not the way I see things. I don't see how that makes me a liar. I am, and have always been truthful about what I believe. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes, however, he made some HUGE ERRORS and sinned, much like the prophet, David did. (of David and Bathsheba). I believe that Fanny Alger was Joseph's Bathsheba. And after Fanny, his judgment was never the same.

Ok, your witness to the world is that you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and his truth claims. Let me remind you of your post where you failed to answer the question regarding your conclusions:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22681
liz3564 wrote:
I feel like I am finally at a place where I am at peace with how I feel in regards to the Church.

I have been able to establish a way to still be an active member, and participate on my terms. That is, in a large part, due to the support I have received here.

My path is not for everyone, and I completely respect those who decide to go a different direction. Everyone has to do what is best for themselves and for their family.

I am comfortable with my choice, and with the opportunity I have to voice my concerns here.

Do you mind answering what "conclusions" you came to? I asked before, but you decided not to answer.

liz3564 wrote:
Does that mean that there aren't some concepts of Christ that are similar between how Mormons and Christians view Christ? I don't think so. Thews, don't you believe that Christ came to earth? So do I. Do you believe He died for our sins? So do I. Do you believe in the beauty of his Sermon on the Mount? So do I.

I believe Jesus Christ was God, and Joseph Smith was a charlatan and nothing more. Magic rocks (seer stones) placed in a stove-pipe hat used to see evil treasure guardians is where you find the source of Mormon doctrine for your prophet of God. You believe in Joseph Smith's doctrine, so you also must believe in D&C 132:

Quote:
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.


In summation Liz, thanks for your witness professing belief in the truth claims of Joseph Smith. I stand corrected and apologize for insinuating you believed Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God, when you accept Joseph Smith as your prophet of God and accept Mormon doctrine as true. As you worship in the church of Mormon doctrine and hold its beliefs near and dear to your heart, I applaud you for accepting D&C132 as the word of God and all it encompasses. I should never have doubted your witness:

http://www.apostolic.edu/biblestudy/files/9th-com.htm
Quote:
THE 9th COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:04 pm 
abstract
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 3054
Nightlion wrote:
thews wrote:
What a preposterous analogy. Your Beatles analogy would also include Jews, so your argument must be that Jews are Christians too. According to Joseph Smith, all Christian religions are wrong, so to label Mormonism "Christianity" makes as much sense as Christians labeling Judaism Christianity because Jews accept part of the Christian doctrine. The important factor in this definition is what doctrine the religion rejects, and all Christian religions reject the doctrine of Joseph Smith as false.

I thought I just proved that there are no Christian churches, not yet. Everyone made up their own religion off the legacy of Christ who pretend today to be Christian, Mormons too.

You didn't get the "heaven, party of one" joke did you? You may see yourself as the epicenter of humanity, but you must understand that you are alone in your views.

Nightlion wrote:
And of course the Jews were even more the original Christians. The Old Testament Saints and prophets were Christians whom the Lord gave a new heart to. Same gospel. They forsook the world of Belial and were no longer counted the children of Belial, as with Hannah the mother of Samuel, and as when the Lord gave Saul a new heart and he prophecied among the prophets. The gifts of Pentecost are precisely what the Old Testament Jews were receiving to be prophets.

Your insanity doesn't negate the doctrine Judaism accepts and rejects.

Nightlion wrote:
How could they have rejected their Messiah if they were not his people and hence the Jew are today a very screwed up version of original Christianity. And the popular Christians today are a scewed up version of fast food Jesus, thank you very much, and the Mormons are a screwed up version of Christianity where the Lord gave them strong delusion that they believe a lie.....We can become God........because they did not love the truth and rejected Christ commandments to bring forth and establish his Zion against the evil day of Satan's lying wonders that we all live in presently. ugh!

You actually believe you are the only who has it right don't you?

Nightlion wrote:
Thanks a heck of a lot you wiener Mormons who coward out of Zion and let the world fall into the chains of darkness we all suffer under today. Just try and come unto Christ successfully in this day and age, I double dare you. You have no clue how and never will. Let the Lord bring his Zion from where he took it that he might have a people waiting for him when he returns. ain't nobody here gonna get up to speed. YOU JUST DO NOT CARE EVEN SLIGHTLY putzes!

It's 7:04, have you taken your meds yet?

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:24 pm 
thews wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Thews, you and I will never agree because you view things as very black and white. It is either all or nothing with you, and that is just not the way I see things. I don't see how that makes me a liar. I am, and have always been truthful about what I believe. Do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet? Yes, however, he made some HUGE ERRORS and sinned, much like the prophet, David did. (of David and Bathsheba). I believe that Fanny Alger was Joseph's Bathsheba. And after Fanny, his judgment was never the same.

Ok, your witness to the world is that you believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, and his truth claims. Let me remind you of your post where you failed to answer the question regarding your conclusions:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22681
liz3564 wrote:
I feel like I am finally at a place where I am at peace with how I feel in regards to the Church.

I have been able to establish a way to still be an active member, and participate on my terms. That is, in a large part, due to the support I have received here.

My path is not for everyone, and I completely respect those who decide to go a different direction. Everyone has to do what is best for themselves and for their family.

I am comfortable with my choice, and with the opportunity I have to voice my concerns here.

Do you mind answering what "conclusions" you came to? I asked before, but you decided not to answer.

liz3564 wrote:
Does that mean that there aren't some concepts of Christ that are similar between how Mormons and Christians view Christ? I don't think so. Thews, don't you believe that Christ came to earth? So do I. Do you believe He died for our sins? So do I. Do you believe in the beauty of his Sermon on the Mount? So do I.

I believe Jesus Christ was God, and Joseph Smith was a charlatan and nothing more. Magic rocks (seer stones) placed in a stove-pipe hat used to see evil treasure guardians is where you find the source of Mormon doctrine for your prophet of God. You believe in Joseph Smith's doctrine, so you also must believe in D&C 132:

Quote:
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.


In summation Liz, thanks for your witness professing belief in the truth claims of Joseph Smith. I stand corrected and apologize for insinuating you believed Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God, when you accept Joseph Smith as your prophet of God and accept Mormon doctrine as true. As you worship in the church of Mormon doctrine and hold its beliefs near and dear to your heart, I applaud you for accepting D&C132 as the word of God and all it encompasses. I should never have doubted your witness:

http://www.apostolic.edu/biblestudy/files/9th-com.htm
Quote:
THE 9th COMMANDMENT
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor."

You are not choosing to read what I say, and you are putting words in my mouth. I have stated many times that I have do not accept D&C 132, and that Fanny tempted Joseph the way Bathsheba tempted David. Do you consider David a prophet? I look at Joseph the same way as I look at David. He was a faithful prophet of God BEFORE he fell to the temptation of Fanny.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:12 pm 
abstract
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 3054
liz3564 wrote:
You are not choosing to read what I say, and you are putting words in my mouth. I have stated many times that I have do not accept D&C 132, and that Fanny tempted Joseph the way Bathsheba tempted David.

You can quit the diversion here, as what you have said is that you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and the doctrine of Joseph Smith is the true word of God. Attempting to exonerate Joseph Smith by painting a 16 year old girl as the temptress pretty much solidifies your position... it was Fanny's fault. Was Sarah Ann Whitney yet another sleazy slime for tempting poor Joseph Smith? Just how far do you have to reach to attempt to paint the façade that your arguments make sense? You said in your own words you accept the words of Joseph Smith as those from a prophet of God... that is what you said. You reject some of Joseph Smith's doctrine as false, yet still profess to believe in Mormon doctrine... that is your witness.

liz3564 wrote:
Do you consider David a prophet?

Do you ever answer questions asked of you, or do you rely on common diversionary tactics to sway the conversation into something you believe you can argue that bolsters your position? I asked you what conclusions you posted that you came to regarding Mormonism, and again you have failed to answer... why? We all know you believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God... that is YOUR witness. What conclusions did you come to?

liz3564 wrote:
I look at Joseph the same way as I look at David. He was a faithful prophet of God BEFORE he fell to the temptation of Fanny.

And again you throw a 16 year old girl seduced by a false prophet as the villain. It's no wonder the LDS apologists throw Jesus Christ under the bus to defend their false prophet. Seriously Liz... do you really have to go there? Isn't what you're claiming completely unfounded by defaming the memory of Fanny Alger? Do you feel justified in dragging her through the mud to defend your prophet of God?

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:20 pm 
thews wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
You are not choosing to read what I say, and you are putting words in my mouth. I have stated many times that I have do not accept D&C 132, and that Fanny tempted Joseph the way Bathsheba tempted David.

You can quit the diversion here, as what you have said is that you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and the doctrine of Joseph Smith is the true word of God. Attempting to exonerate Joseph Smith by painting a 16 year old girl as the temptress pretty much solidifies your position... it was Fanny's fault. Was Sarah Ann Whitney yet another sleazy slime for tempting poor Joseph Smith? Just how far do you have to reach to attempt to paint the façade that your arguments make sense? You said in your own words you accept the words of Joseph Smith as those from a prophet of God... that is what you said. You reject some of Joseph Smith's doctrine as false, yet still profess to believe in Mormon doctrine... that is your witness.

liz3564 wrote:
Do you consider David a prophet?

Do you ever answer questions asked of you, or do you rely on common diversionary tactics to sway the conversation into something you believe you can argue that bolsters your position? I asked you what conclusions you posted that you came to regarding Mormonism, and again you have failed to answer... why? We all know you believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet of God... that is YOUR witness. What conclusions did you come to?

liz3564 wrote:
I look at Joseph the same way as I look at David. He was a faithful prophet of God BEFORE he fell to the temptation of Fanny.

And again you throw a 16 year old girl seduced by a false prophet as the villain. It's no wonder the LDS apologists throw Jesus Christ under the bus to defend their false prophet. Seriously Liz... do you really have to go there? Isn't what you're claiming completely unfounded by defaming the memory of Fanny Alger? Do you feel justified in dragging her through the mud to defend your prophet of God?

What the hell are you talking about? I do not, and have never blamed Fanny. Joseph fell. He lusted after Fanny. i never said it was Fanny's fault. Once again, you are putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it. You keep saying that I have to accept Joseph's prophecies as all or nothing. I am claiming that I don't.

I do not wish to discuss this with you anymore, Thews, because you are refusing to actually read what I am saying and you continue to twist my words. Everyone here can see that.

Quit twisting my words, and pick a new target.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:02 pm 
abstract
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:26 am
Posts: 3054
liz3564 wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? I do not, and have never blamed Fanny.

Oh really? What did you mean when you said this:

liz3564 wrote:
I have stated many times that I have do not accept D&C 132, and that Fanny tempted Joseph the way Bathsheba tempted David.

So Fanny "tempted Joseph" but you're not blaming Fanny? Was the flaming sword just too much for poor Joseph Smith to pass by?

liz3564 wrote:
Joseph fell. He lusted after Fanny. i never said it was Fanny's fault.

See above... that's exactly what you said when you claimed Fanny "tempted" Joseph.

liz3564 wrote:
Once again, you are putting words in my mouth, and I don't appreciate it.

And once again, you are attempting to skew the words that come out of your mouth to imply you didn't say them, when you know you did. Still no answer to the "conclusions" you came to. Why? You posted it, and still you don't have the guts to state what that conclusion was. Why is that? Family pressure too much? Is that why you continue to paint Mormonism as Christian? Do you enjoy being a teacher to itching ears?

liz3564 wrote:
You keep saying that I have to accept Joseph's prophecies as all or nothing. I am claiming that I don't.

You have said you're striving to attain your doctorate, which implies you are intelligent. If you are in fact intelligent, then if you claim to place faith in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God and the doctrine of Joseph Smith as the word of God, then an intelligent person would assume you would accept all of the doctrine of Joseph Smith. Which other doctrines of Joseph Smith do you openly reject as false? Oh wait, you can't even reply to the conclusions you posted you came to, so assuming you'd be honest enough to answer this question is a bit of a reach isn't it?

liz3564 wrote:
I do not wish to discuss this with you anymore, Thews, because you are refusing to actually read what I am saying and you continue to twist my words. Everyone here can see that.

I disagree Liz, as anyone with an ounce of intelligence would know that you are a false witness from the word go. You divert and twist your words to force the square peg into the round hole that Mormonism is in fact Christianity, when you don't believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet of God. If you did, then you would accept your role as a part of your husband's band of wives... just as Joseph Smith taught. One more time Liz, since your soul knows compromise, just exactly what did you conclude when you posted you had come to some sort of conclusion? Cat got your tongue?

liz3564 wrote:
Quit twisting my words, and pick a new target.

You're a liar. Where are your hens to back you up? Jersey Girl? You don't believe Joseph Smith was anything but a charlatan do you? Why not try intellectual honesty at some point? You can, if you choose, explain the conclusion you came to? Please enlighten me so that I may understand the error on my ways. I present no false witness... can you say the same?

_________________
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:01 pm 
World's Top Zion Scientist
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 1:11 pm
Posts: 9548
Location: North Side of The Apocalrock
thews wrote:
said nothin'

Against my substantive post that made remarkable points of hitherto unthunked depths you can only attack me personally.

I mean, hey, make an argument that the Jews never did receive the new heart from God. Tell us that circumcision was not a sign in their flesh to remind them to circumcise their hearts unto God that they might be filled with his love.

Tell us that these points fail Christianity.

Tell us that Christ did not command us to do the will of the Father on earth as it is done in heaven. Tell us that the disciples of Jesus did not ask him how they can work the works of God......

John 6:28-29
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Tell us that Christians today know how to get that will and how to accomplish it with power. hmmm? Tell us that there are real Christians established somewhere today. Anywhere?

"Reach out and touch your television screen and accept Jesus as Lord and say halleluia, send us your offering to this address you see right now. Praise God you are saved from hell fire. Add just a little bit extra to your praise offering, thank you Jesus, I can feel the love, can't you feel it?"

I am one who knows. Obviously. Refute it.

_________________
Vindicate Joseph Smith: BECOME ZION
http://apocalblog.blogspot.com/.

My YouTube videos:HERE
PDF Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology:HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:03 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 8417
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
I see thews has opened multiple fronts on gdemetz, liz and nightlion. If I dogpile on, I wonder if we can get thews to accept the gospel and set a baptism date by next Sunday?

_________________
"You lack vision, but I see a place where people get on and off the freeway. On and off, off and on all day, all night.... Tire salons, automobile dealerships and wonderful, wonderful billboards reaching as far as the eye can see. My God, it'll be beautiful." -- Judge Doom


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:12 pm 
World's Top Zion Scientist
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 1:11 pm
Posts: 9548
Location: North Side of The Apocalrock
liz3564 wrote:
You are not choosing to read what I say, and you are putting words in my mouth. I have stated many times that I have do not accept D&C 132, and that Fanny tempted Joseph the way Bathsheba tempted David. Do you consider David a prophet? I look at Joseph the same way as I look at David. He was a faithful prophet of God BEFORE he fell to the temptation of Fanny.


Liz, just because an evil cabal of gay historians have agreed to accept something as a fact and run with it will never make it a fact.

Joseph was truly born of God. He was prophet enough that IF he had fallen in the eyes of God he would have said so. Just as David did.

Joseph said in one of his last sermons that he would show that he is not a fallen prophet. And later said that he had a conscience void of offense towards man and God.

You quaver and sell him out because the fearful and unbelieving refuse to suffer him any respect?
Putz

_________________
Vindicate Joseph Smith: BECOME ZION
http://apocalblog.blogspot.com/.

My YouTube videos:HERE
PDF Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology:HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 6:42 am 
I am not fond of Thews, and I am not going to engage him in a battle. There are a couple of points that he made where he twisted my words around which I will address. I would mainly like to address what Nightlion stated about how he felt I "sold Joseph Smith out" by labeling him a false prophet.

As far as I am concerned, his actions sold us, the members of the Church out. One thing that Thews pointed out which I will clarify is that he quoted me as saying that Joseph was tempted by Fanny, and succumbed to that temptaion. In this, I misspoke somewhat. I did not mean to indicate, as Thews suggested, that Fanny was in any way, at fault for Joseph's demise. Joseph succumbed to his lust for Fanny, and that is why he fell. Now, maybe he was legitimately in love with Fanny. If that was the case, then he should have divorced Emma and started a life with Fanny. I don't believe that really was the case, however. Based on both Joseph and Emma's writings, I think that it is clear, that in spite of all of their problems, they truly did love each other.

I think that Joseph sought for a way to "have it all". He may have honestly thought that he received a revevlation from the Lord; I don't know. But it is clear to me that polygamy was not something that the Lord meant to have re-established. Polygamy was an Old Testament cultural norm...period. It has no place in the modern church. Since Joseph and Brigham massively screwed up (pun intended), and established it, there were, unfortunately, saints who in good faith practiced it, thinking that they were doing right by the Lord. Those saints will not be punished in any way, and I believe that the Lord will allow them to stay together as families in the next life, if they so choose. However, I do not believe that polygamy is the Lord's ideal form of marriage.

As far as my conclusions which I have found peace with, that Thews seems to think I have avoided expressing, they are as follows:

I believe that the Book of Mormon was an inspired work, and is a further testament to the living Christ. Whether this book is a literal history, or simply inspired writing, I really don't know, nor do I think it really matters in the grand scheme of things. There are portions of the Bible which I wonder about, as far as a literalness of translation is concerned as well. There are so many things which have been left open to interpretation, I think that it is best for us all to simply try to live life the best way we can. Love our families and our friends. Say our prayers. Worship Christ and hope for the best.

If that makes me a hypocrite, oh well. At least I will die a peaceful hypocrite, if that is, indeed, what I am, and my family and friends will know that I truly loved them and wanted the best for them.


Top
  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 7:50 am 
tired, less active investigator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:07 am
Posts: 10158
Location: Hungary
madeleine wrote:
Christians, not just Catholics, view Satan as a fallen angel. The difference is in how we view what angels are.

My view (atheist, born as catholic...) is:
Image

Lucifer (the rightmost on the picture, my ideal character) has wings.

_________________
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:10 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 2476
ludwigm wrote:
madeleine wrote:
Christians, not just Catholics, view Satan as a fallen angel. The difference is in how we view what angels are.

My view (atheist, born as catholic...) is:
Image

Lucifer (the rightmost on the picture, my ideal character) has wings.


Mormons would like that work of art, once the wings were edited out. :geek: I wonder, does that fall under "removing plain and precious things"?

_________________
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:28 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:03 pm
Posts: 2476
liz3564,

David acknowledged his sins with Bathsheba, forsake them (didn't keep repeating the sin of adultery over and over and over) and sought forgiveness from God.

Smith never sang a song of repentance. Instead he made up a "doctrine" designed to enable his continued adulterous activities, and then led others into participating in the same sin with claims that it was divine instruction.

David's Song of Repentance (Psalm 51)

1 For the leader. A psalm of David,
2 when Nathan the prophet came to him after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

I

3 Have mercy on me, God, in accord with your merciful love;
in your abundant compassion blot out my transgressions.
4 Thoroughly wash away my guilt;
and from my sin cleanse me.
5 For I know my transgressions;
my sin is always before me.
6 Against you, you alone have I sinned;
I have done what is evil in your eyes
So that you are just in your word,
and without reproach in your judgment.
7 Behold, I was born in guilt,
in sin my mother conceived me.
8 Behold, you desire true sincerity;
and secretly you teach me wisdom.
9 Cleanse me with hyssop, that I may be pure;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
10 You will let me hear gladness and joy;
the bones you have crushed will rejoice.

II

11 Turn away your face from my sins;
blot out all my iniquities.
12 A clean heart create for me, God;
renew within me a steadfast spirit.
13 Do not drive me from before your face,
nor take from me your holy spirit.
14 Restore to me the gladness of your salvation;
uphold me with a willing spirit.
15 I will teach the wicked your ways,
that sinners may return to you.
16 Rescue me from violent bloodshed, God, my saving God,
and my tongue will sing joyfully of your justice.
17 Lord, you will open my lips;
and my mouth will proclaim your praise.
18 For you do not desire sacrifice or I would give it;
a burnt offering you would not accept.
19 My sacrifice, O God, is a contrite spirit;
a contrite, humbled heart, O God, you will not scorn.

III

20 Treat Zion kindly according to your good will;
build up the walls of Jerusalem.
21 Then you will desire the sacrifices of the just,
burnt offering and whole offerings;
then they will offer up young bulls on your altar.

_________________
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 10:48 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Liz, this may come across as picky and for that I apologise

liz3564 wrote:
I believe that the Book of Mormon was an inspired work, and is a further testament to the living Christ. Whether this book is a literal history, or simply inspired writing, I really don't know, nor do I think it really matters in the grand scheme of things.


if the Book is not literally what it has been claimed to be by Joseph Smith and as attested to by all those witnesses then how can you believe it to be inspired at all? Did God inspire the writing of it but not the claimed origin?

If it is not literally what it is claimed to be then how can it be an authentic additional witness of Jesus Christ?

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 202 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exiled, Fence Sitter, Google [Bot], huckelberry, Res Ipsa and 36 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group