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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:25 pm 
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lulu wrote:
You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?
Double first cousins. :razz:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 6:39 pm 
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MCB wrote:
lulu wrote:
You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?
Double first cousins. :razz:

If madeleine thinks that the terms are Roman Catholic to the exclusion of Orthodoxy or the Church of the East, then I think I'm dealing with a Southern Baptist of Roman Catholic and I have to say that I don't have much patience for that. The terms are Christian.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 7:05 pm 
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I've worked with maddy long enough on two boards to know what she would say about that. :lol: I will let her speak for herself.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:01 am 
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lulu wrote:
madeleine wrote:
You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic.
You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?


East and west are the "two lungs" of the catholic church. The Orthodox are are in schism. They aren't heretics. They would agree with the same definitions, though, would say it is the west that is in schism. Either way, we are in agreement that there is a schism between us.

The Church of the East is both in schism and heretical (Nestorianism). As far as I know, they agree with the definitions, just don't view that they are heretical.

It's really quite simple for catholics (all churches, east and west), what councils does a particular church accept and which ones are not accepted. Even Protestants accept the Church councils, to a point, accept the writings of the ECF as representing apostolic teachings. etc.

Mormons don't even know what the councils are, purposely remaining ignorant of Christian history.
Though more recently they are fond of applying the same sophistry they have applied to scripture to the ECFs. They just give a blanket view that what they don't know is wrong. Period.

The point being, coming back to the original statement of Mormonism not Christian. There is a vast amount of time, writings, people, traditions, etc. that define Christianity. Schismatics and heretics are still a part of this same whole of Christianity, as they are a part of all that encompasses Christianity.

Mormons have a desire to change all of this, wipe it out would be their ideal (50000 missionaries removing people from Christianity). They want it both ways, to be called Christian while at the same time, rejecting EVERYTHING that has and does define Christianity for 2000 years. It's doctrines, theology, Saints....EVERYTHING.

They have built a new religion that has never existed before.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:29 am 
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lulu wrote:
MCB wrote:
Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.
Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?


St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:37 am 
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madeleine wrote:
You're the one who asked I go to classic definitions, which are all: Catholic.
lulu wrote:
You've heard of Orthodoxy and the Church of East?


madeleine wrote:
East and west are the "two lungs" of the catholic church. The Orthodox are are in schism. They aren't heretics. They would agree with the same definitions, though, would say it is the west that is in schism. Either way, we are in agreement that there is a schism between us.

The Church of the East is both in schism and heretical (Nestorianism). As far as I know, they agree with the definitions, just don't view that they are heretical.

It's really quite simple for catholics (all churches, east and west), what councils does a particular church accept and which ones are not accepted. Even Protestants accept the Church councils, to a point, accept the writings of the ECF as representing apostolic teachings. etc.

Mormons don't even know what the councils are, purposely remaining ignorant of Christian history.
Though more recently they are fond of applying the same sophistry they have applied to scripture to the ECFs. They just give a blanket view that what they don't know is wrong. Period.

The point being, coming back to the original statement of Mormonism not Christian. There is a vast amount of time, writings, people, traditions, etc. that define Christianity. Schismatics and heretics are still a part of this same whole of Christianity, as they are a part of all that encompasses Christianity.

Mormons have a desire to change all of this, wipe it out would be their ideal (50000 missionaries removing people from Christianity). They want it both ways, to be called Christian while at the same time, rejecting EVERYTHING that has and does define Christianity for 2000 years. It's doctrines, theology, Saints....EVERYTHING.

They have built a new religion that has never existed before.

None of which was the issue. We are not discussing Catholic terms, as you claim, we are discussing Christian terms.

Agreed?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:45 am 
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MCB wrote:
Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.
lulu wrote:
Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

madeleine wrote:
St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.
Again, you duck the issue. Yes, heretics had to be "re"-baptized. Ask St. Basil (he was Greek speaking Orthodox :wink: ).

But no one ever claimed that heretics were not Christian. The only references I've ever found say that heretics were Christians, not pagans or heathens even though they had to be "re"-baptized.

Baptism was required of both heretics and pagans. But that requirement was never used to claim that heretics were pagans.

So once again, if you claim that Gnostics were not Christians, please enlighten me with a direct reference. That is the direct question, which you're ducked.

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Last edited by lulu on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:50 am 
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Who defined them and when?

If you think gnostics were Christians, how did a gnostic define these terms?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:00 am 
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madeleine wrote:
Who defined them and when?

If you think gnostics were Christians, how did a gnostic define these terms?
Once again, you duck the question. The question is: did classic Christianity define Gnostics and other heretics as Christian? Please provide a reference.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:05 am 
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lulu wrote:
MCB wrote:
Mormonism is a restoration, not of Christianity, but of Gnosticism.
lulu wrote:
Do you have a reference that Gnosticism was not Christian?

madeleine wrote:
St. Augustine of Hippo was a convert from Manichaeism, a gnostic religion. When he converted to Christianity he was baptized.
Again, you duck the issue. Yes, heretics had to be "re"-baptized. Ask St. Basil (he was Greek speaking Orthodox :wink: ).

But no one ever claimed that heretics were not Christian. The only references I've ever found say that heretics were Christians, not pagans or heathens even though they had to be "re"-baptized.

Baptism was required of both heretics and pagans. But that requirement was never used to claim that heretics were pagans.


Baptism is how one becomes a Christian.

Quote:
So once again, if you claim that Gnostics were not Christians, please enlighten me with a direct reference. That is the direct question, which you're ducked.


Baptism is how one becomes a Christian. People who had already been baptized as Christians, were not rebaptized. Baptized Christians who follow heresies are not rebaptized if/when they return to Christianity. (Donatist heresy brought clarity to that one.)

Gnostics baptized, a convert from gnosticism was baptized. If they were considered Christians they would not be baptized.

As for ducking questions....l apologize for making the assumption that you understood the significance of a Christian baptism.

edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:25 am 
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madeleine wrote:
edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:23 am 
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lulu wrote:
madeleine wrote:
edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move :lol:


Funny comparison, but not close enough.

Basil never claimed to be a prophet, and no-one ever called him a prophet.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:24 am 
lulu wrote:
madeleine wrote:
edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move :lol:

OMG! Love it!!! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:34 am 
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madeleine wrote:
edit to add: St. Basil held an opinion, that has never been doctrine.

lulu wrote:
I was wondering if you would make the bcspace move :lol:


MCB wrote:
Funny comparison, but not close enough.

Basil never claimed to be a prophet, and no-one ever called him a prophet.

Prophet smophet. That's not the point.

A. madeleine has her nose buried in the RCIA manual.

A. bcspace has his nose in the LDS Institute manual.

B. If something madeleine finds in the RCIA manual is demonstrably wrong, she responds to the evidence against her with "that was never doctrine." Rather than taking her nose out of the RCIA manual.

B. If something bcspace finds in the Institute manual is demonstrably wrong, he responds to the evidence against him with "that was never doctrine." Rather than taking his nose out of the Institute manual.

They'd both make great Southern Baptists if the need arose.

That's the point.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
If something madeleine finds in the RCIA manual is demonstrably wrong, she responds to the evidence against her with "that was never doctrine." Rather than taking her nose out of the RCIA manual.
I don't know if she is working from that or not. How, she is one of my readers for the book I am working on, and she is researching in areas where I might do some more elaboration.

So I see it as being rather circular.

And you are certainly being a big help, too. :smile:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:10 pm 
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MCB wrote:
Quote:
If something madeleine finds in the RCIA manual is demonstrably wrong, she responds to the evidence against her with "that was never doctrine." Rather than taking her nose out of the RCIA manual.
I don't know if she is working from that or not. How, she is one of my readers for the book I am working on, and she is researching in areas where I might do some more elaboration.

So I see it as being rather circular.

And you are certainly being a big help, too. :smile:
Be sure and put me in your acknowledgements . . . along with my avatar :redface:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:18 pm 
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My acknowledgments are to the entire board community as well as http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=14 and D&D.

As for your avatar and its meaning, I also deal with that. There is a lot of pain among LDS gays. Many are so emotionally scarred that celibacy is attractive. :cry:

As for RCIA textbooks, it is such a new process, that there is very little out there. Each parish develops their own curriculum based on perceived needs. My book is intended as an RCIA textbook, although others might use it for other purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:24 pm 
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lulu, I have to agree with MCB: I don't think it's a fair comparison. The reason bcspace feels able to weasel his way in and out and through LDS manuals is that LDS does not have and has never had a teaching authority as such. On the contrary, the Magisterium provides a level of authority for what is orthodox Catholic doctrine that simply does not exist in Mormonism. So it's really apples to oranges.

That said, I don't know if I agree with madeleine's baptism criterion. Theologically she is on solid ground, but I'm pretty sure that e.g. Baptist or Methodist baptisms are not sacramentally valid in Roman Catholicism; certainly they are not sacramentally valid in Eastern Orthodoxy.

The more salient point she makes, that you have yet to address, is the fact that Mormons worship a completely different God than Christians (or, for that matter, Jews and Muslims) worship. The "Abrahamic" faiths all worship the One True God who created the heavens and the earth. Mormons worship a god that they believe created this particular planet/world system, but they teach that this god is not the One True God and that we are only genetically (as opposed to ontologically or metaphysically) dependent upon this god. In other words, their theology is utterly and completely incompatible with the "Abrahamic" model.

MCB, what is your book about and when (approximately) is it due? My interest has been piqued!


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:31 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
lulu, I have to agree with MCB: I don't think it's a fair comparison. The reason bcspace feels able to weasel his way in and out and through LDS manuals is that LDS does not have and has never had a teaching authority as such. On the contrary, the Magisterium provides a level of authority for what is orthodox Catholic doctrine that simply does not exist in Mormonism. So it's really apples to oranges.

That said, I don't know if I agree with madeleine's baptism criterion. Theologically she is on solid ground, but I'm pretty sure that e.g. Baptist or Methodist baptisms are not sacramentally valid in Roman Catholicism; certainly they are not sacramentally valid in Eastern Orthodoxy.

The more salient point she makes, that you have yet to address, is the fact that Mormons worship a completely different God than Christians (or, for that matter, Jews and Muslims) worship. The "Abrahamic" faiths all worship the One True God who created the heavens and the earth. Mormons worship a god that they believe created this particular planet/world system, but they teach that this god is not the One True God and that we are only genetically (as opposed to ontologically or metaphysically) dependent upon this god. In other words, their theology is utterly and completely incompatible with the "Abrahamic" model.

MCB, what is your book about and when (approximately) is it due? My interest has been piqued!
I really can't improve on your own wise words
Samantabhadra wrote:
they can also be understood as heretics, in the sense that they consider themselves Christian, but choose to turn away from Christian orthodoxy.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:34 pm 
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The RCC church accepts all baptisms except Oneness Pentecostal, Mormon, and a few other strange sects. The Trinity is the difference. Oneness baptisms are in the name of Jesus only.

Here is another post by me on another board:
Quote:
When I started researching and writing, I experienced the same kind of episodic resurgences which would last for weeks. The thought of actually publishing was frightening, because I feared backlash from mobots. I kept working on it, and became more comfortable. The move to a minimally Mormon area did wonders. I would think that what is behind it is paranoia, you know, Danites, and all that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flooding_%28psychology%29 Luckily, I just kept working on it, and gradually the symptoms faded. I just backed off to 25 mg of Seroquel a day.


I also have a good spiritual and psychological support structure from the largest organized church in the world.

Text:373 pages, Selected readings: 459 pages. Less than half as dry as Mike Quinn's works. I dare to be me.


Title now is "A Re-evaluation of Mormonism"

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http://www.vatican.Virginia/archive/ccc_css/a ... cc_toc.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Mormonism not Christian...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Is considering yourself Christian sufficient to make you Christian? You never answered my earlier question about my Hindu friend.


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