The ones you are raising?

Well done!

I suppose I'm a lot like that Peterson bloke you speak of. After all, he convinced me to rejoin the Church, almost single-handedly, even though it didn't last very long. I don't think anything or anyone else could have even come close to drawing me back at the time.

I must make a clarification, though. I don't hold apostasy against anyone. After all, I'm an apostate myself, even if I'm not convinced that Mormonism is a "fraud". Are you?

I stand by my view that you were a better person as an active believer, and that's the Kevin Graham I like to remember. Now you're just an arrogant and contentious old fart.

Tell me your real name, and I'll take you seriously.

My "sympathy" with Mormonism has nothing to do with the two points you raise. The DCP interview was great, but that's not why, even in part, why I remain "sympathetic". And to be "sympathetic" to Mormonism because one of my kids was attacked is essentially a "revenge motive". I have no "revenge motives" for remaining "sympathetic".

http://www.wave.net/upg/gate/

The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such.

Oh come on! Roger's Rangers from the French and Indian war?!?!? Come on Dan....

Nobody in New York would have heard of Roger's Rangers. And what would this prove about guerrilla tactics, anyway? IIRC, Robert Rogers never really wrote anything down.

This is all just preposterous nonsense. There is no way a person in Joseph Smith's time and location could have come up with any ideas about guerrilla tactics.

"Északnyugati átjáró"
Northwest Passage of Kenneth Roberts.

I have the book in Hungarian.

That comes off as pretty silly. Joseph Smith' claim of having metallic plates is not near a comparison to this. The question is did Joseph Smith have metallic plates that appeared ancient with writings on them? DJ says yes. he simply doesn't realize the reason he's forced to say yes, is because, in part, the evidence that is supplied by the testimony of the 8.

See ya.

Explain it, stem. Your "nuhuh" responses are inadequate. You rarely offer anything resembling an argument until we prod you to do so.

So, are you registered at Mormon Voices perchance? Is this board an assignment you have taken on?

Do you work for the LDS Church?

I'm just asking, because it almost feels like you are a bad union employee punching the clock or a ward member grudgingly fulfilling an unwanted calling here. Such is the empty, repetitive nature of most of your responses.

Sorry stem but it is exactly the same kind of comparison. Both are offering physical proof of a conclusion that they are not qualified to make.

Hmmm...I have never really viewed Stem as someone who has an agenda. I suppose it is possible, though I honestly think unlikely. The sense I get is that he is just a "regular guy" who belongs to the Church. Actually, he and I have similar views which are quite NOM'ish on some LDS doctrine and policy.

I just explained it. The issue here seems to be whether there is evidence for any of Joseph Smith' claims. DJ used the example of the 8 witnesses as a means to say it's not really evidence of any of Joseph Smith' claims. I say, Joseph Smith claimed to have had metallic plates that appeared ancient and had writings on them. The testimony of the 8 confirm that. DJ agrees that Joseph Smith probably had some sort of plates. Here, we can see, there is evidence of a claim by Joseph Smith.



To be truthful I don't' think many are very serious here at all. They don't pose pertinent arguments, much like that Gadianton guy's post just demonstrated. I know your knee jerk reaction is to complain about my posts, but you don't seem to realize that my post was in response to an absurd post--that didn't pertain to anything I've been saying. I know he's your bud, so whatever.







Yes, I often give out what I get in return. The empty, repetitive nature of many of the responses here.

Thanks for noticing, though. I wish I was a better.

I will bet you money that you would have the folks in the Ward come up to you afterward telling you how moving your testimony was. They would not even catch on to what you were saying. It would translate into their brain as "Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God" rather than your subtle point here about Joseph Smith "bringing forth the Book of Mormon". To an untrained ear, it would simply be accepted.

I disagree. Stem may be "just a regular guy," but his pattern of engagement is the antithesis of thoughtful reading or useful commentary. It seems calculated to scuttle anything like an actual conversation with feigned stupidity and an avalanche of empty comments.

Still, I am glad you have connected with him on some level. I don't hate the guy; I'm just tired of stupid responses from a person who clearly could do better but chooses not to. I think that is evidence of an agenda.

Let's see.

Says Gadianton: "The leader of Heaven's Gate had a photo of Hale Bopp with a trailing white dot. The trailing dot was the spaceship of one of the Heaven's Gate leaders from several years prior who had moved to the next level after fighting cancer. Now, Stem, one might conclude without that photo that Hale Bopp approached not alone, but with that photo, the evidence mounts that much more. That photo was/is a piece of data. It is evidence positive for the case that Hale Bopp traveled with an intelligent, space-faring companion. It isn't proof necessarily, but it is a piece of evidence in favor of the Heaven's Gate case and should be acknowledged as such."

Here the conclusion he reaches by saying the leader had a photo is untenable.

Here is the conclusion I draw from the 8 witness testimony:

They confirm that Joseph Smith' story of having metallic plates that appear ancient and have writings on them.

The comparison is not near close to what I've been saying, in my estimation. But to each his own.

I see potential here. I feel for the posters here and wish they would let go. I respond often with that in mind. When I see continual hypocrisy and thoughtless hostility directed at LDS folks, which is often the case here, or even at other people like Ray, I often comment in hopes posters will be awakened and move away from such senseless drivel. It only hurts them, I say. I don't want that for you or anyone.

In the end, I do wonder why you and others often derail threads to complain about me. I suppose as much as you think I am sent here from elsewhere to interfere with your guys' complaining, I wonder why there is such a ganging up, bullying mentality in response to posters like me. It seems to be this board's form of moderating--shut out and poison the well of those who present different views that are often not well-received here.

I think there is some clarity though in your latest responses, Kish. At times you are pretty nice and helpful. Other times you are biting and angry. We're all a little driven by our moods I suppose. But when you get to the angry area, i find your posts thoughtless and mean-spirited. And I don't' mean that when you direct them at me, but at many people.

Do you also wonder why people like Brant Gardner are treated so well?

No, stem, as people have demonstrated to you time and again in the face of your feigned obliviousness, the testimony of the eight was clearly placed in service of the claim that Joseph Smith translated these ancient plates to produce an account of an ancient Hebrew civilization in the Americas, as it was demonstrably intended to do. This the introduction of the Book of Mormon itself declares.

In this way it is perfectly parallel with the Heaven's Gate case. The only person who pretends not to get that is you.

It is obvious that yours is a studied obliviousness. You are a friendly fraud masked as a sincere interlocutor, and it is getting extremely wearing.

Stem, my responses to your fraudulent participation here are observations. Anyone with half a brain can see that you are playing games. I don't have to ignore that, or refrain from drawing the attention of others to it.