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 Post subject: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 5:06 pm 
God

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Hello All Here,

There still hasn't been any LDS Apologist on this Message Board who has responded to the 'Chaldeans' anachronism in the Book of Abraham.

Here is Abraham Chapter One, Verse One, And Verses 13 and 14:

Quote:
Abraham 1:1 & 13-14:

1 In the land of the Chaldeans, at the residence of my fathers, I, Abraham, saw that it was needful for me to obtain another place of residence;

...

13 It was made after the form of a bedstead, such as was had among the Chaldeans, and it stood before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.
14 That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics.



Now, Here is a Post From Danna:

Quote:
Could an apologist pleeeeease explain one thing for me. FAIR is no help, and I have asked this many times, yet am always ignored. A frequent apologetic response is that critics should actually read the Book of Abraham rather than nit-pick over its origin. OK. I have read the Book of Abraham. I once read it to confirm that JSjr would clarify and correct an anachronism in the OT, only to be sharply disappointed.

The Book of Abraham is grossly inaccurate regarding the history of the Chaldeans. They simply did not exist at the same time as Abraham. As a people, or a place. The original reference to Chaldea as the origin of Abraham, in the OT, is a scribal gloss - a scribe's attempted clarification of the identity of Ur. Abraham predated Chaldea and the Chaldeans by about 1000 years.

I know there is scholarly debate as to the location of Abraham's Ur and Haran and other locations mentioned. Fine. But that does not solve the question as to why Abraham in the Book of Abraham discusses a people, place, customs, and language that were not to exist for another millenium.

The logical answer to this is that Joseph took an anachronism from the bible (an anachronism which was also repeated in non-biblical historical material) and transferred it, in uninspired fashion, into the Book of Abraham and magnified it by elaborating. Is there an apologetic alternative?


( Link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8921&p=235328#p235328 )


Do any of the LDS Apologists here, have an answer for the 'Chaldeans' anachronism in the Book of Abraham? William, Droopy, or any other LDS Apologist, who wants to try to give an answer here?

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Last edited by Brackite on Sat May 09, 2009 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:21 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 7:33 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
I have one word for you: tapir.



LOL! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2009 10:58 pm 
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someone goofed: it should have been called the Apocalypse of Isaiah.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 5:15 pm 
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And Now, Here is a Post From California Kid:

CaliforniaKid wrote:
Hey, Danna!

I've written a little about it. The apologists who defend the Syrian Ur hypothesis believe that the Chaldeans were a Syrian ethnic group for a thousand years prior to migrating to Babylon and making their mark on the historical record. They don't actually have any evidence to support this idea, so far as I know. Most scholars think the Chaldeans migrated from the south, i.e. from Arabia. I also have my doubts about whether such a historically-insignificant ethnic group could have maintained a distinct group identity for a thousand years in a region as volatile as Syria.

And then there's Occam's Razor to reckon with. There's a perfectly good "Ur of the Chaldees" in southern Mespotamia. Why assume the Book of Abraham text refers to some other Ur of the Chaldees? What are the odds that the Chaldeans dominated two cities called Ur, separated by a millennium? And why isn't this Ur named in the Egyptian execration texts, which pronounce curses against the various Canaanite and Syrian protectorates that broke away from Egyptian rule during the Amarna age as Egypt lost the strength and will to govern its foreign holdings? The Book of Abraham portrays these Chaldeans as a landed people who control at least one whole city. How did they so thoroughly escape historical documentation?

The Syrian Ur apologists also argue that this Ur must be close to Haran, and of course it must also be close to Olishem, which they identify with the "Ulisum" mentioned in an inscription of the Akkadian king Naram-Sin. I am quite convinced that Naram-Sin's Ulisum was the city the Egyptian execration texts call Ullaza, a little north of Byblos on the coast of modern-day Lebanon. (As David Bokovoy told me when I posed the idea to him by PM, "the sibilants z and s are interchangeable in Semitic languages. The -um ending would be disregarded as an Akkadian case ending plus mimation.") Ullaza is much too far from Haran, really, to be the "plains of Olishem". The initial "U" vowel also creates problems for the claimed "Canaanite shift" by which the apologists want to turn Ulisum into Olishem.

It is well-known that the Primeval History of Genesis 1-11, at the end of which we read that Abraham was from Ur of the Chaldees, has strong Babylonian influences. This is almost certainly because the Jewish writer who penned it was living in Exile in Babylon. Almost the whole History takes place in Mesopotamia, until at last Abraham leaves the land of his nativity with his family and sets out for Canaan, stopping along the way in Haran. This marks the end of the Primeval narrative. Can there be any doubt that the writer intended to denote the Mesopotamian Ur? The reason "Ur of the Chaldees" appears in the Book of Abraham is simple: Joseph Smith copied this anachronism into his text. He actually makes it worse, in fact, by making the Chaldean culture and language active parts of the narrative.

If you're interested in reading an old discussion of some of these issues, I recommend John W's old MADB thread about Lundquist "Abraham at Ebla" article: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 29688&st=0


( Link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8646&p=226843&hilit=#p226843 )

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 6:20 pm 
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The silence is deafening.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 7:13 pm 
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harmony wrote:
The silence is deafening.



Yes, it is, Harmony. This Discussion Thread has now been here for over 24 hours, and there still hasn't been any LDS Apologist of the Book of Abraham, who has responded here. Where is William? Where is Droopy?

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2009 11:07 pm 
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Brackite wrote:
harmony wrote:
The silence is deafening.



Yes, it is, Harmony. This Discussion Thread has now been here for over 24 hours, and there still hasn't been any LDS Apologist of the Book of Abraham, who has responded here. Where is William? Where is Droopy?

Droopy can not appear here.
The word leftist doesn't fit to the Chaldean topic.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:58 am 
Although "written by his own hand, upon papyrus," the act of translation of both the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham is, in my opinion, is a combination of modern interpretation by the translator and inspiration. Was Abraham a real person and if he was, when did he live? Although "Ur of the Chaldeans" was not mentioned by any source until the 9th Century BCE, who's to say Abraham didn't live in the century or two before? (Which puts Moses' story in jeopardy, but that's another story.)

Abraham is Chaldean under the common Josephus formulation (AoJ 1:6) that the Chaldeans were founded by Arphaxadites, grandson of Noah. So, the earliest written Jewish accounts (other than the Bible itself) links Abraham with the Chaldeans.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:24 am 
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Josephus and the papyrus are from the same time - that's all you can conclude.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:25 pm 
karl61 wrote:
Josephus and the papyrus are from the same time - that's all you can conclude.


Now that's a fascinating response, for it admits Joseph Smith's translation.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:34 pm 
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Joseph Smith was famliar with Josephus' writings for crying out loud. He got this nonsense from Josephus the same way he borrowed from Thomas Dix's, Philosophy of a Future State. This isn't rocket science.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 1:55 pm 
Kevin Graham wrote:
Joseph Smith was famliar with Josephus' writings for crying out loud. He got this nonsense from Josephus the same way he borrowed from Thomas Dix's, Philosophy of a Future State. This isn't rocket science.


I don't dispute that Joseph Smith had familiarity with Josephus. I cite Josephus only for the point that the concept that Abraham was of the Ur of the Chaldees was a notion in print before Christ.

But, you certainly give Joseph Smith a lot of credit for the content of the Book of Abraham.

You're still a Christian. Do you think Abraham was a real person? If so, is it unreasonable to think that the Chaldeans existed as a concept at least as early as 800 B.C.? Is that too late for you for Abraham, and if so, why?

For crying out loud. You idiot. [Gratuitous in-kind slam provided for amusement.]


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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
I don't dispute that Joseph Smith had familiarity with Josephus. I cite Josephus only for the point that the concept that Abraham was of the Ur of the Chaldees was a notion in print before Christ.


Great, so we know now where Smith got it from. Remember this has been used as an example of apologetic proof that Joseph Smith was receiving revelation.

Quote:
But, you certainly give Joseph Smith a lot of credit for the content of the Book of Abraham.


Yes, though he borrowed plenty from various sources.

No, I'm not a Christian.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 2:25 pm 
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Quote:
Droopy can not appear here.
The word leftist doesn't fit to the Chaldean topic.


Is your conscience bothering you?

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:47 am 
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Droopy wrote:
Quote:
Droopy can not appear here.
The word leftist doesn't fit to the Chaldean topic.

Is your conscience bothering you?

My conscience has nothing to do with Chaldeans.

Try again!
The topic is Chaldeans. Go :arrow: !

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:58 am 
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rcrocket wrote:
karl61 wrote:
Josephus and the papyrus are from the same time - that's all you can conclude.


Now that's a fascinating response, for it admits Joseph Smith's translation.


not sure what you mean by your response. I meant that both were written between 50 and 100 AD if I remember correctly.

I don't think you can conclude anything when two documents are written at the same time but a thousand miles apart in different languages.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:30 am 
Thank you for conceding that the papyrus identifies Abraham with the Ur of the Chaldees. Few critics are willing to do so. A milestone in dialogue.

I note that my response to Brackite goes unchallenged.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 10:33 am 
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rcrocket wrote:
Thank you for conceding that the papyrus identifies Abraham with the Ur of the Chaldees. Few critics are willing to do so. A milestone in dialogue.

I note that my response to Brackite goes unchallenged.


I think the papyrus gives instructions to an Egyptian woman's soul about the Egyptian after life. This dates to the first century A.D., the same time Josephus wrote in Rome. Josephus writes about history based on what he was taught, not via revelation.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 12:10 pm 
I continue to note that my response to Brackite continues to go unchallenged.

Is Abraham a real person? If so, when did he live? Proof?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaldeans Within The Book of Abraham.
PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:39 pm 
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Thanks, For the attempted Response, Rcrocket. However, the 'Chaldeans' anachronism is a lot more Problematic in the Book of Abraham, than it is in the Book of Genesis. Here is Genesis Chapter 11, Verses 28 and 31:

Quote:
Genesis 11:28 & 31: (New King James Version):

28 And Haran died before his father Terah in his native land, in Ur of the Chaldeans.

...

31 And Terah took his son Abram and his grandson Lot, the son of Haran, and his daughter-in-law Sarai, his son Abram’s wife, and they went out with them from Ur of the Chaldeans to go to the land of Canaan; and they came to Haran and dwelt there.



Here is a Web Site Page about the 'Chaldeans' anachronism in the Book of Genesis:

Quote:
2 Abraham’s Lifestyle

2.1 City Dweller. Scripture is silent about the details of Abraham’s life before he entered Canaan. Genesis 11:28 states that he was born in Ur of the Chaldeans, an important Sumerian city. The reference to "chaldeans" is probably anachronistic as the Chaldeans did not arrive in Assyria until about 1,000 BC (Wenhan, 1987: 272).

...

3.2 Alleged Anachronisms. The presence of anachronistic references has long be used a test for its dating. One example, the reference to Ur "of the Chaldeas" has already been noted above (2.1) and indicates the work of an editor’s efforts to clarify the exact location for a later audience. Edwin Yamauchi makes an important point concerning such deliberate substitutions:

...it is a universal practice for later editors or translators to make updated substitutions which are quite necessary to make certain items clear to later readers without elaborate circumlocutions. It would be quite captious to place these deliberate substitutions in the same incriminating heading as erroneous anachronisms (Yamauchi, 1973: 35).


( Link: http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/article_abraham.html )



Joseph Smith Greatly Magnified the 'Chaldeans' anachronism within the Book of Abraham. Here is (again) Abraham Chapter One, Verses 13 and 14:

Quote:
Abraham 1:13-14:

13 It was made after the form of a bedstead, such as was had among the Chaldeans, and it stood before the gods of Elkenah, Libnah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and also a god like unto that of Pharaoh, king of Egypt.
14 That you may have an understanding of these gods, I have given you the fashion of them in the figures at the beginning, which manner of figures is called by the Chaldeans Rahleenos, which signifies hieroglyphics.



The Greater Problem here, is that an altar is described as being "such as was had among" a People who did not yet exist.

Now, here is Abraham Chapter One, Verse 23:

Quote:
Abraham 1:23:

23 The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden;



And, Here is this information:

Quote:
Egyptus — Abr. 1:23: "The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is forbidden." Stephen E. Thompson: "First, Egyptus is not a Chaldean word, but Greek, and does not mean 'forbidden' in any language. The Greek "Egyptus" apparently derives from Egyptian hwt-k3-pth, "the house of the ka of Ptah," which was the name of a temple of Ptah in Memphis. During the New Kingdom, this term came to designate the town of Memphis, the capital of Egypt, in which the temple was located. Also there is some evidence that foreigners referred to the country of Egypt by this term as is attested in a Mycenaean Linear B tablet from Knossos, which is usually dated to around 1375 BC, i.e., 125 years after Abraham, as a man's name, presupposing that it was already a name for Egypt. Note also that the text (Abr. 1:22-25) implies that Egypt derived its name from an eponymous ancestor, Egyptus. Given the facts concerning the origin of the word Egyptus, however, this cannot represent historical reality."6

...

6. Stephen E. Thompson, "Egyptology and the Book of Abraham", Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Spring 1995, pp. 155-156


( Link: http://www.bookofabraham.com/boamathie/BOA_8.html )

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