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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:48 am 
Kishkumen wrote:
harmony wrote:
Might want to rethink a couple of those... they've been closely associated with William, a more "mean-spirited" individual would be difficult to find. (and I'm pretty sure I can say that, since I'm one of his favorite targets)


I will happily settle for people not being nasty themselves. We all associate with nasty characters on occasion. Since Will is only nasty to "apostates" and liberals he gets a pass from many people who should know better.

Is Will even really considered a serious apologist? In my mind, I think he appears as more of a joke. I sort of feel sorry for Will because I think that he is used by apologists to get out a nasty rant. And, because it's Will, no one has to feel guilty. It is just Will being psychotic again.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:57 am 
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Liz wrote:
Is Will even really considered a serious apologist? In my mind, I think he appears as more of a joke. I sort of feel sorry for Will because I think that he is used by apologists to get out a nasty rant. And, because it's Will, no one has to feel guilty. It is just Will being psychotic again.


Oh Daniel Peterson and Royal Skousen, perhaps others too, seem to consider Will a friend. Daniel even defends the guy as "clever" or some such. It really makes one wonder.

I think you can chalk it up to a general lack of concern for how this looks to others. Will spews his carefully, laboriously crafted slams, and some apologists chortle with glee. And others sit on the sidelines wishing the guy would find a new hobby, but afraid to speak up when Will appears to have such warm relations with the guys he buys lunch at the Maxwell Institute.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:32 am 
Kishkumen wrote:
Liz wrote:
Is Will even really considered a serious apologist? In my mind, I think he appears as more of a joke. I sort of feel sorry for Will because I think that he is used by apologists to get out a nasty rant. And, because it's Will, no one has to feel guilty. It is just Will being psychotic again.


Oh Daniel Peterson and Royal Skousen, perhaps others too, seem to consider Will a friend. Daniel even defends the guy as "clever" or some such. It really makes one wonder.

I think you can chalk it up to a general lack of concern for how this looks to others. Will spews his carefully, laboriously crafted slams, and some apologists chortle with glee. And others sit on the sidelines wishing the guy would find a new hobby, but afraid to speak up when Will appears to have such warm relations with the guys he buys lunch at the Maxwell Institute.

Yeah, I never have understood the dynamic of friendship there. Although, I will say I think that the real friendship that gives Will clout in the apologetic world is his friendship with Skousen. It seems to me that they apparently have a significant history as close friends. He and Dan are more of "friendly acquaintences". From what I gather from Dan, anway, he doesn't really associate with Will that much. Dan also did genuinely attempt to "rein Will in" when he was acting unprofessionally with your FAIR article. I am just speculating here, but maybe the reason Dan doesn't do more to outwardly speak up against Will's antics is due to Will's friendship with Skousen? I don't know. I could be totally offbase there. What does seem to come across in my conversations with Dan is that the main reason he doesn't consider much of what Will says is because he simply doesn't take the time to read him, speak with him, or pay him much mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:23 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Yeah, I never have understood the dynamic of friendship there. Although, I will say I think that the real friendship that gives Will clout in the apologetic world is his friendship with Skousen. It seems to me that they apparently have a significant history as close friends. He and Dan are more of "friendly acquaintences". From what I gather from Dan, anway, he doesn't really associate with Will that much. Dan also did genuinely attempt to "rein Will in" when he was acting unprofessionally with your FAIR article. I am just speculating here, but maybe the reason Dan doesn't do more to outwardly speak up against Will's antics is due to Will's friendship with Skousen? I don't know. I could be totally offbase there. What does seem to come across in my conversations with Dan is that the main reason he doesn't consider much of what Will says is because he simply doesn't take the time to read him, speak with him, or pay him much mind.


Who knows what goes on, eh? Will is a shameless self-promoter, so he could be making everything up just for kicks. I wouldn't put it past him at this point. It could be that Daniel and others just keep their mouths shut when he lies about all of his play-dates with them because it seems to drive critics nuts. They may even think it is funny and add their own stories about get togethers for movies and popcorn, trips to El Azteca for "churros," and family picnics.

At this point it is neither here nor there. If they want to let a mangy old dog slobber on visitors, that is their business. But I will have a little fun ribbing them over it, just as they would if they were in my shoes.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:36 am 
Kishkumen wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Yeah, I never have understood the dynamic of friendship there. Although, I will say I think that the real friendship that gives Will clout in the apologetic world is his friendship with Skousen. It seems to me that they apparently have a significant history as close friends. He and Dan are more of "friendly acquaintences". From what I gather from Dan, anway, he doesn't really associate with Will that much. Dan also did genuinely attempt to "rein Will in" when he was acting unprofessionally with your FAIR article. I am just speculating here, but maybe the reason Dan doesn't do more to outwardly speak up against Will's antics is due to Will's friendship with Skousen? I don't know. I could be totally offbase there. What does seem to come across in my conversations with Dan is that the main reason he doesn't consider much of what Will says is because he simply doesn't take the time to read him, speak with him, or pay him much mind.


Who knows what goes on, eh? Will is a shameless self-promoter, so he could be making everything up just for kicks. I wouldn't put it past him at this point. It could be that Daniel and others just keep their mouths shut when he lies about all of his play-dates with them because it seems to drive critics nuts. They may even think it is funny and add their own stories about get togethers for movies and popcorn, trips to El Azteca for "churros," and family picnics.

At this point it is neither here nor there. If they want to let a mangy old dog slobber on visitors, that is their business. But I will have a little fun ribbing them over it, just as they would if they were in my shoes.


LOL! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:40 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Although, I will say I think that the real friendship that gives Will clout in the apologetic world is his friendship with Skousen. It seems to me that they apparently have a significant history as close friends.

I don't know that Skousen is exactly considered "royalty" in "the apologetic world" if you will pardon the pun. He is certainly respected, but I'm not sure that friendly relations with him is enough to give one "clout" with other LDS scholars.

If he and William Schryver have "a significant history as close friends" it seems a little strange that Schryver would publicly criticize Skousen's decision to publish The Book of Mormon: The Earliest Text with Yale University Press, arguing that Skousen's action had "clearly trespassed into the realm of [the First Presidency's] stewardship."

But maybe that's what close friends do. I don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:10 am 
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It makes me wonder when the OP posts just a summary of the email he sent to Daniel Peterson, but gives us an exact quote of the response he got. It sounds like we are missing part of the conversation.

Just being skeptical.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:17 am 
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But the age old questions is still there, how did Will get access to the KEP when no-one else could?


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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:17 am 
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Jhall118 wrote:
It makes me wonder when the OP posts just a summary of the email he sent to Daniel Peterson, but gives us an exact quote of the response he got. It sounds like we are missing part of the conversation.

Just being skeptical.


More of these communications can be found on MDD.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:05 pm 
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What a fascinating episode. I’ll add two points:

First, Peterson could have diffused the current drama by responding to John’s email in a professional manner. For example, he could have said,

Dear John,

Yes, an article has been submitted to the Journal that reviews Mormon Stories. We haven’t made a decision on whether or not to publish it. As always, we will continue our endeavor to provide insightful and provocative articles, and I’m confident that if we publish this piece, it will meet those expectations.

Sincerely,

DCP


With a response like that, the story would now be that the MI might be reviewing Mormon Stories, Dehlin is afraid of criticism and is a tattle tale, and the MI is cool and professional. Nobody likes a tattle tale, so if DCP would have projected himself professionally, the GA would have likely taken his side in the assessment of the situation.

Second, we’ve now seen two battles between the Maxwell Institute and critics, where the GA’s become involved and take the critics side. It’s superlatively ironic to hear apologists complaining about censorship when it is the general authorities of the church they’re ostensibly defending that’s doing the censoring. What is this world coming to?

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Jhall118 wrote:
It makes me wonder when the OP posts just a summary of the email he sent to Daniel Peterson, but gives us an exact quote of the response he got. It sounds like we are missing part of the conversation.

Just being skeptical.


More of these communications can be found on MDD.

Specifically, see posts #32 and #47 on this thread:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/577 ... ge__st__20

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:18 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Who knows what goes on, eh? Will is a shameless self-promoter, so he could be making everything up just for kicks. I wouldn't put it past him at this point. It could be that Daniel and others just keep their mouths shut when he lies about all of his play-dates with them because it seems to drive critics nuts. They may even think it is funny and add their own stories about get togethers for movies and popcorn, trips to El Azteca for "churros," and family picnics.

Do you really think so? Man, that would be just ....... bizarre! I just can't imagine such a crazy thing as that. What does it gain them to do something like that? I mean, why encourage anyone to really believe that they have a friendly relationship with such a toxic person as Schryver, when in fact they don't? I just don't get it. But then I don't get a lot of the things that these people do.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:22 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Is Will even really considered a serious apologist? In my mind, I think he appears as more of a joke.

+1

Quote:
I sort of feel sorry for Will because I think that he is used by apologists to get out a nasty rant. And, because it's Will, no one has to feel guilty. It is just Will being psychotic again.

Still, I can't understand why they wouldn't do everything they can to distance themselves from a psychotic, toxic person like Schryver.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 12:27 pm 
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Carton wrote:
Do you really think so? Man, that would be just ....... bizarre! I just can't imagine such a crazy thing as that. What does it gain them to do something like that? I mean, why encourage anyone to really believe that they have a friendly relationship with such a toxic person as Schryver, when in fact they don't? I just don't get it. But then I don't get a lot of the things that these people do.


The things they do in the name of sticking it to the critics are fairly well known and, in my opinion, no more bizarre than this speculation. If anything, this would be far less bizarre than other things they have actually done.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:04 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
But the age old questions is still there, how did Will get access to the KEP when no-one else could?

This is a great question. I mean, the KEP have been like "TOP TOP SECRET" forever, haven't they? So how did a freaking nobody from nowhere who is not a scholar, never published any scholarly works ........ how did he manage to get the church to open the top secret vault and hand him the KEP and the Joseph Smith Papyri? It makes no sense at all!!

IT makes me wonder: do we really know that Schryver did get access to this stuff? Or is this (like his lunch dates and friendships with MI people) just a total fabrication dreamed up in Schryver's twisted mind?

What proof do we have that Schryver really was given access to the most guarded items in the church vault?

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Carton wrote:
This is a great question. I mean, the KEP have been like "TOP TOP SECRET" forever, haven't they? So how did a freaking nobody from nowhere who is not a scholar, never published any scholarly works ........ how did he manage to get the church to open the top secret vault and hand him the KEP and the Joseph Smith Papyri? It makes no sense at all!!

IT makes me wonder: do we really know that Schryver did get access to this stuff? Or is this (like his lunch dates and friendships with MI people) just a total fabrication dreamed up in Schryver's twisted mind?

What proof do we have that Schryver really was given access to the most guarded items in the church vault?


Maybe he broke his kid's piggy bank and cashed in his 401k to make a generous donation.

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 Post subject: Re: Greg Smith, Dan Peterson, John Dehlin, & Lou
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:05 pm 
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Carton wrote:
What proof do we have that Schryver really was given access to the most guarded items in the church vault?


I've wondered this all along.

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