When this first came out, a friend of mine told me about it and asked "Did Joseph Smith really put a stone in a hat to translate the Book of Mormon?"

“What?” “No, of course not! That is not the way it happened!” Imagine my embarrassment when I found out that is how it happened (the story anyway)

A couple of years later I heard someone say “Hey, did you know that Joseph Smith married other guys’ wives and fourteen year old girls?”

My response was “What?” “No, of course not! That is not the way it happ… um wait, maybe I better find out for sure!”

And I did find out and thus the first crack in what I thought was a rock solid testimony appeared and then it was just a matter of time….

Yup, Mormons that don't follow Moroni's promise - out on their ear every time. Been there done that. Got the t-shirt and sunglasses to prove it.

I didn't know those things either. It's weird, because according to the apologists, every TBM knows these things, and if you don't it's your own fault.

Yup, Just follow Moroni's promise and pray. Didn't get an answer? You didn't pray hard enough! Pray harder. Still did not get an answer? Then you must be sinning. Just remember it is always your fault

Clearly you missed the point. Don't worry, I didn't get it either and left as well.
1) We don't get to make demands of God - that's your first mistake.
2) God already knows who and what you are. So trying or pretending to be something you aren't is never going to fool the Lord.
3) The Lord will decide if and when to answer you.

So you are either committed, no matter what to following, suffering the trials of the Lord, and seeking God or your aren't. It will never be a matter or how hard you try or wish or pray or whatever you think you are going to attempt here. It is what you are and have determined to be that matters. If you don't believe me, look hard at yourself right now and try to answer the question if you were the Lord, would you trust you given what you have done? Now, if you willing to change, be reborn through the grace of God, and follow the Lord - that is your decision. But don't approach it lightly and with the attitude that you can force the Lord to answer you. It is with dedication, long suffering, and humble patience that you accomplish this. Oh, and one last thing - it requires faith.

Or, a little more succinctly than Tobin:

Why not? Who says we don't get to make demands of god? Other men. Yup, cuz god hasn't told me that's one of the rules, so its just other men saying so. Why should I take other men's word for it in the face of this god who hides and doesn't speak to me?
So why not go directly to judgment day and eternal assignment? What's this whole life/existence on earth for? God already knows, so this life is nothing more than a boot camp discipline exercise--but it won't work because we can't pretend to be something were not, right?
Yup. The invisible Silent Bob, the one who never appears, never speaks. Someone for whom it isn't worth two sh*** to let his 'children' each know or not. Just this 'pin the mystery myth on the donkey' in the sky. Really?
'the trials of the lord'--thought he was supposed to have done all that suffering for us. Is he welching on that promise now? Seeking a myth? Thank you, no.
Yup. You are what you are, this mythical sky pilot knows it, and you can't pretend. That's the drill, right?
If I were the lord? Wow, then the lord would actually exist in reality, and not be a myth. Wouldn't that be refreshing? the lord actually be a being that exists rather than just a myth? If I were the lord, trust me with what? Probably everything. I am a damn trustworthy guy, probably because I don't buy into myths. For decades now, I've not been that damn gullible. So you can trust me with whatever.
Wait. Change? The lord knows what I am already. How can I change? But, your asking me to imagine that I am the lord (see above) makes this one much easier. I do make my own decisions, and follow them. My decisions. Following the lord--me!
Don't approach it that this mythical lord gives a damn, and would care to impart this 'important' info to me or others. Dedication, long suffering and humble patience is what it takes to be a college prof, a scholar, a professional with private clientele, take out the garbage, work 8 hour shifts at McDonald's, drive truck for a living, deal with inmates you are guarding--oh, and any and everything else we all do day to day.Yeah, that is the one last thing, isn't it? Believing in something someone else-heaven forbid, not this mythical god himself-but suggests to you but for which there is no empirical evidence. It boils down to that, being gullible enough, doesn't it?

God isn't hiding. All this we see around us is God's doing and this life is but just a brief time before you return to God.
To demonstrate to ourselves what we are. All of this is predetermined. You can not change who you are or what you are. The circumstances in which you find yourself was all predetermined and it is foolish to pretend you had any choice in the matter. For example, what race you are, what sex you are, who your parents were, and so on had zero input from you. Even the choices you feel you make in this life are of little consequence and impact and only possible because of God. So, you can pretend to be as signficant as you'd like, or you can to humble yourself, realize who and what you are and how very limited you truly are, and approach the Lord in order to be changed, to be saved, and to be uplifted. That alone is what makes change of our creature possible.
Not really. The Lord is always speaking, you just fail to listen.

Once again, if there is a problem it is always your fault

When isn't there a problem? Are you really going to pretend this life is perfect and ideal? The question is, what are you going to do about it? I think the choice is pretty clear: remain as who and what you are, or approach the Lord and through him be changed.

And if the Lord doesn't see fit to change me or comunicate with me then it is something I am doing wrong. In other words, it is always my fault

Then have some faith, even as a mustard seed.

Yup, that 'god' of yours prefers to entrust something (?) to those who act in the absence of evidence and reasoned conclusions drawn from that evidence, rather than those who draw such conclusions.

It's sort of like this. Suppose you are planning your estate. You have $10m. You want it administered after your death for your surviving spouse and children. Who do you pick to be the trustee? Someone who has a track record of acting on hunches? Or someone who evaluates facts and from those facts, draws a reasoned approach to take?

Hey, have faith, man. Just hand the $10m over to the guy who flies by the seat of his pants. That's the approach you attribute to your omniscient god. (I can't for the life of me figure why those who believe in god feel the need to make him out to be such a doofus.)

I know you won't listen, but I will repeat what beatie told you



If anyone is in need of an attitude change it is you. I don't know if anyone I know ever made demands of God with Moroni's promise, or were trying tom pretend to be something they were not with God. Most in the church didn't stop believing just because they didn't get an answer. Most of us think we did through spiritual experiences. Later I realized it is probably just ourselves. I still believed until I came across evidence like the Book of Abraham which proved Joseph was making it up.

When you stand in opposition to God and the gospel, it is pretty clear where you stand Themis. And I'm not being arrogant stating that. This life is a time to prepare to meet God and it won't last forever. Afterwards, you will have to stand before God and account for yourself and where and with whom you choose to stand.

It only seems that way to you sock puppet, but that is the nature of this life. It is an imperfect state of being in which we have to choose to trust in the Lord and believe in him; or remain as we are and stand before the Lord as we are and in that last day.

Sorry but you don't really know what people have or haven't done in their search for God or truth. You really are arrogant to think you do. BTW I don't stand in any opposition of any God. I just don't see any reason to believe in them, especially the LDS one who obviously is a fantasy Joseph came up with.

And that is why I ignore you. You respond with statements asserting things I purportedly said that don't exist anywhere but in your head. Nothing in my statement above has anything to do with what you just said.

Yet why is it people like beastie say the same thing. You might want to think why more then just me see the same thing.



This was your first post which was a obvious statement of what you thought other people were not doing.

And then I clarified what I meant and note I stated that was true of myself as well. Like I said, you seem to ignore what I have to say, make up something in your head, and then base your assertions on that. I'm sure that is interesting to you, but it is hard to hold down a conversation with someone that is doing that. At a certain point, you have to let someone like you wander off and just talk to themselves because that is what you are doing anyway.