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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:37 am 
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Don't waste your time talking Egyptian history with Tobin. Let him think whatever he wants. He already knows the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are totally untrue. We are halfway there to converting him on the side of science which has also shown the text of the Book of Abraham to be just as false and made up by a storyteller. Give him time. He's a stubborn one.

Now, he might ask how has science proven the text to be false. Let him figure it out on his own. When he finally does, it will be more rewarding to him personally.

:wink:

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:38 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Human sacrifice was fairly common among the Hebrews up until the 6th century BC, and common among their Semitic neighbors. It was not found among the Egyptians of the time, however.
CFR


Did you miss the constant exhortations in the OT trying to get people to stop sacrificing their Children to Moloch?

In any case, see The Better Angles of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, p.134

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:39 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
I'm sorry, how does this counter the historical fact that the Chaldeans were not a people in any time Abraham could have existed?
Really? When did the Chaldeans come into existence exactly? CFR Did they just spontaneously appear out of thin air?


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:42 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
Tobin wrote:
CFR


Did you miss the constant exhortations in the OT trying to get people to stop sacrificing their Children to Moloch?

In any case, see The Better Angles of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, p.134
Again ,by your own admission, human sacrifice was occuring in this region. We aren't talking about events in Egypt.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:46 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

Did you miss the constant exhortations in the OT trying to get people to stop sacrificing their Children to Moloch?

In any case, see The Better Angles of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, p.134
Again ,by your own admission, human sacrifice was occuring in this region. We aren't talking about events in Egypt.


I'm sorry, who was trying to sacrifice Abraham again? It wasn't a Canaanite or a Hebrew. Should I give you a hint?

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:47 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
I'm sorry, how does this counter the historical fact that the Chaldeans were not a people in any time Abraham could have existed?
Really? When did the Chaldeans come into existence exactly? CFR Did they just spontaneously appear out of thin air?


Really Tobin, I shouldn't be the one doing this work for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea

Quote:
Chaldea or Chaldaea was a marshy land located in modern-day southern Iraq which came to rule Babylon briefly. Tribes of settlers who arrived in the region from the 8th Century BC became known as the Chaldeans or the Chaldees. The Hebrew Bible uses the term כשדים (Kaśdim) and this is translated as Chaldaeans in the Septuagint.

The short-lived 11th dynasty of the Kings of Babylon (6th century BC) is conventionally known to historians as the Chaldean Dynasty, although only the first four rulers of this dynasty were known to be Chaldeans, and the last ruler was known not to be. Their kingdom in the southern portion of Babylonia lay chiefly on the right bank of the Euphrates. Though the name came to be commonly used to refer to the whole of southern Mesopotamia, Chaldea proper was in fact the vast plain in the far south east formed by the deposits of the Euphrates and the Tigris, extending to about four hundred miles along the course of these rivers, and about a hundred miles in average width.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:49 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Did you miss the constant exhortations in the OT trying to get people to stop sacrificing their Children to Moloch?
In any case, see The Better Angles of Our Nature by Steven Pinker, p.134
Again ,by your own admission, human sacrifice was occuring in this region. We aren't talking about events in Egypt.
Buffalo wrote:
I'm sorry, who was trying to sacrifice Abraham again? It wasn't a Canaanite or a Hebrew. Should I give you a hint?
1) You admit that human sacrifice was common in that region. 2) Adoption of other Gods was also common, in this case the Egyptian Gods. 3) It isn't a stretch to find a combination of many practices in keeping with the traditions of the region. 4) And Abraham, according to the Bible, was aware of the practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:55 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
Really Tobin, I shouldn't be the one doing this work for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea
The Chaldeans didn't sprout of the mud. Tribes and people migrated and were driven from region to region. The idea that the Chaldeans just suddenly appeared out of nowhere (from what population base?) and established a dynasty is simply ridiculous. They came from somewhere. If you spent any time examining this, you'd realize that the most likely hypothesis is the Kassites (and Kaldu). Regurgitating the same poor assumptions and unfiltered ideas does not impress me in the slightest.


Last edited by Tobin on Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:55 am 
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Tobin wrote:
1) You admit that human sacrifice was common in that region. 2) Adoption of other Gods was also common, in this case the Egyptian Gods. 3) It isn't a stretch to find a combination of many practices in keeping with the traditions of the region. 4) And Abraham, according to the Bible, was aware of the practice.


The region? Egypt is not in the region I was discussing. Human sacrifice was practiced by Hebrews and Phoenicians, not by the Egyptians at this point in time.

If you're attempting to create a chain of possibilities out of thin air, I'll save you the trouble. I'm not interested. Where is your evidence?

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:57 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
Really Tobin, I shouldn't be the one doing this work for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea
The Chaldeans didn't sprout of the mud. Tribes and people migrated and were driven from region to region. The idea that the Chaldeans just suddenly appeared out of nowhere (from what population base?) and established a dynasty is simply ridiculous. They came from somewhere. If you spent any time examining this, you'd realize that they most like hypothesis is the Kassites (and Kaldu). Regurgitating the same poor assumptions and unflitered ideas does not impress me in the slightest.


No, they immigrated to the region, and colonized it.

It would be like Columbus referring to Canadians. An anachronism. There was no such thing at the time. The ancestors of the Canadians were extant, but they were not called Canadians in Columbus' day.

Really, I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:57 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
Tobin wrote:
1) You admit that human sacrifice was common in that region. 2) Adoption of other Gods was also common, in this case the Egyptian Gods. 3) It isn't a stretch to find a combination of many practices in keeping with the traditions of the region. 4) And Abraham, according to the Bible, was aware of the practice.
The region? Egypt is not in the region I was discussing. Human sacrifice was practiced by Hebrews and Phoenicians, not by the Egyptians at this point in time.
If you're attempting to create a chain of possibilities out of thin air, I'll save you the trouble. I'm not interested. Where is your evidence?
Wow. Really Buffalo? Let me ask you a simple question then. Do you believe Ur of Chaldees was in Egypt?


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:03 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
No, they immigrated to the region, and colonized it.
It would be like Columbus referring to Canadians. An anachronism. There was no such thing at the time. The ancestors of the Canadians were extant, but they were not called Canadians in Columbus' day.
Really, I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.
Wow, progress. Now we are getting somewhere. Now, when was the BofA written by Joseph Smith? Before or after the Chaldeans settled in Mesopotamia? And how should we properly name the progenitors of the Chaldeans? Would you accept the BofA if Joseph Smith had called them the forefathers of the Chaldeans? It didn't seem the Jewish scholars felt a need to and many Christians seem to accept the Bible just fine and even believe in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:12 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Wow. Really Buffalo? Let me ask you a simple question then. Do you believe Ur of Chaldees was in Egypt?


No, but Joseph associates Ur with Egypt, both in religion and culture.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 10:16 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
No, they immigrated to the region, and colonized it.
It would be like Columbus referring to Canadians. An anachronism. There was no such thing at the time. The ancestors of the Canadians were extant, but they were not called Canadians in Columbus' day.
Really, I shouldn't have to spell this out for you.
Wow, progress. Now we are getting somewhere. Now, when was the BofA written by Joseph Smith? Before or after the Chaldeans settled in Mesopotamia? And how should we properly name the progenitors of the Chaldeans? Would you accept the BofA if Joseph Smith had called them the forefathers of the Chaldeans? It didn't seem the Jewish scholars felt a need to and many Christians seem to accept the Bible just fine and even believe in it.


So it would be appropriate for someone, in translating the journals of Columbus, to translate his references to the Inglesi and Francese as Canadese?

Hilarious! :lol:

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:54 am 
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Friends,

Nearly two years ago I took the most massive dose of humility in my life by acknowledging, first to myself and then to everyone, that I had been wrong about the Church and by going through the process of returning and being rebaptized. After that I worked to have my priesthood and temple blessings restored, which they were last fall. I am an active and committed member, not only attending church, tithing, and home teaching, but also privately praying, studying the scriptures--currently the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham, going to the temple, and trying to grow spiritually.

Since returning to the Church I've had two or three experiences in which people have seemed to look down on me for having previously left the Church or have implied that perhaps I don't really belong in the Church. These few experiences have occurred exclusively on Internet message boards, where the people talking often don't really know the people they're talking to or about, and where concerns for another's feelings and good name can easily be forgotten in light of the pressing need to make a good response to an opposing poster.

Yet in spite of these few experiences and the several years I previously spent outside the Church and posting on boards like this as a nonbeliever, I have been overwhelmingly and beautifully accepted by other Latter-day Saints--including my bishops, my stake president, LDS girls I've dated, other members of my ward, the people I worked with at the Joseph Smith Papers, the organizers of the FAIR Conference, and even the Church Historian, Elder Marlin K. Jensen, who called my several years outside the Church "little detour" I had taken in my faith and told me hat all that mattered now is that I was back and willing to serve. This experience of having been reembraced by my fellow Saints, by Church leaders, and by the Church as an institution has been one of the most profoundly moving experiences of my life. Because of it I know that the Church not only talks of forgiveness, it walks that talk.

I appreciate this acceptance so much and hope my fellow Saints will continue to treat me like anyone else in the Church, as if I had never left in the first place. I hope, too, that we can be charitable in our assumptions about one another, as Joseph Smith taught:

Quote:
“I have sometimes spoken too harshly from the impulse of the moment, and inasmuch as I have wounded your feelings, brethren, I ask your forgiveness, for I love you and will hold you up with all my heart in all righteousness, before the Lord, and before all men; for be assured, brethren, I am willing to stem the torrent of all opposition, in storms and in tempests, in thunders and in lightnings, by sea and by land, in the wilderness or among false brethren, or mobs, or wherever God in His providence may call us. And I am determined that neither heights nor depths, principalities nor powers, things present or things to come, or any other creature, shall separate me from you.

“And I will now covenant with you before God, that I will not listen to or credit any derogatory report against any of you, nor condemn you upon any testimony beneath the heavens, short of that testimony which is infallible, until I can see you face to face, and know of a surety; and I do place unremitted confidence in your word, for I believe you to be men of truth. And I ask the same of you, when I tell you anything, that you place equal confidence in my word, for I will not tell you I know anything that I do not know.” - Joseph Smith, January 16, 1836, History of the Church 2:374.


If I am guilty of something less than this myself, I need to be called on it, because this kind of charity and loyalty are exactly what I hope to show to others.

The other day I had lunch with Chris Smith, Runtu, and Kevin Graham, whom I met then for the first time. The conversation, which lasted maybe an hour and a half, was almost entirely about other posters on the Mormon message boards. I don't believe I said anything about those posters that was unkind. One of the few specific statements I remember making was that I thought Paul Osborne had made a great Mormon and that I'd been very sorry to see him leave the Church--a view I've previously expressed to Paul on this board and which I want to reiterate to him now.

But, uh...why should I have to explain what I did and didn't say in lunchtime banter? What makes this something I should have to justify or report? I don't see other posters being pressed to disclose the contents of their mealtime conversations or supposedly needing to spell out their specific views or defend their testimonies online. So, please, no more singling me out for grilling like this.

In response to some of the posts above...

Kevin--it was great meeting you in person. Like Chris, I found you surprisingly laid back IRL, and even very soft spoken and tolerant of those who choose to be in the Church. And the conversation was fun. If, in our conversation, you picked up the vibe that I, having at one time left the Church myself, could understand why you've done so and that I don't demonize you for it, you are absolutely right. I understand why things don't add up for you and very much empathize with your wish that you did think the Church was true. When I stopped believing several years ago, I felt the same way.

Of course, I'm not indifferent to you having left the Church. I feel the same way about you having left that I do about Paul having done so. And, though your experience may differ, my time outside the Church was not a spiritual or emotional high point. It was more like a wandering in the wilderness.

Though I've criticized your posting style and polemical edge, I think you often make real and substantive contributions to the discussion--as the mods at Mormon Dialogue obviously also think, since they let you get away with an exceptional amount of rule breaking! ;-) But as much as I wish your style were more polite and your your weighing of the evidence more dispassionate, I wish much more that you were still in the Church.

We didn't get a chance to discuss either your leaving or my former leaving and return, but if you're back in the area sometime, that would make an interesting conversation for another lunch.


Loran--I don't think you and I have had much discussion on the boards and we have met only in passing, at the 2010 FAIR Conference, when I had just returned to the Church. I'm not sure why I became a focus of your posting on this thread. Perhaps you were trying to call Kevin on a misrepresentation of my views? Or maybe you thought it was suspect and wrong of me to have lunch with a never-Mormon scholar and a couple lapsed believers who post criticisms of the Church online? In any case, it doesn't matter. I'm not mad at you, but in the future, I'd really strongly prefer you address any inquiries about my perspectives on various Gospel topics to me personally. (Facebook is probably the best way, since I rarely even check my PMs on the message boards).

The best expression of my testimony is my return to the Church and the lifetime of service I plan to give within it. But if you'd like to discuss my perspectives on the Book of Abraham or whatever, catch me at this year's FAIR and I'll be happy to talk with you about them. In the meantime, if you see what you think are questionable posts about my stands on things, please message me to let me know. While I do not want to have to always be defending myself, I also do not want to be misrepresented.

Regarding the Book of Abraham, I have a paper in mind that would lay out some of my most important views. My embrace of and testimony regarding the Book of Abraham are not based on evidence about how it relates to the ancient Near East--a subject on which I am poorly capacitated to pass judgment--but on its teachings. And it is the power of those doctrinal and spiritual teachings that I would like to write on, and perhaps present on in some venue like the FAIR Conference. =)

Ciao All,

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:12 am 
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Don, please don't take this the wrong way...but...it seems like you are still feeling the need to justify your return to Church activity. Is that the way you feel?

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 4:51 am 
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Drifting,

No.

Cheers,

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:01 am 
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DonBradley wrote:
My embrace of and testimony regarding the Book of Abraham are not based on evidence about how it relates to the ancient Near East--a subject on which I am poorly capacitated to pass judgment--but on its teachings. And it is the power of those doctrinal and spiritual teachings that I would like to write on, and perhaps present on in some venue like the FAIR Conference. =)

Ciao All,

Don


Don,

Do you think that it's possible to maintain a testimony of the spiritual teachings and doctrine within the Book of Abraham whilst disbelieving the authenticity of it's claimed origins?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:23 am 
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Hi Drifting,

However I answer that question I will be put in the position of having to defend my view of the relationship between spiritual truth and historicity, of the Book of Abraham, etc. My purpose in visiting this thread has, I hope, already been accomplished, and I'm not wanting to get into an expanding discussion. I have a thesis/book to finish; and my primary way of putting forward and advancing my views is no longer via MB posts but through such publications and also presentations.

IOW, on this and all related questions, see my forthcoming works.

Cheers,

Don

_________________
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I'm delighted to discuss with others who also want mutually beneficial discussion. And if it becomes clear I can't have a mutually beneficial discussion with another poster, I'll just circumvent fruitless conflict with the Ignore function.


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:52 am 
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DonBradley wrote:
Hi Drifting,

However I answer that question I will be put in the position of having to defend my view of the relationship between spiritual truth and historicity, of the Book of Abraham, etc. My purpose in visiting this thread has, I hope, already been accomplished, and I'm not wanting to get into an expanding discussion. I have a thesis/book to finish; and my primary way of putting forward and advancing my views is no longer via MB posts but through such publications and also presentations.

IOW, on this and all related questions, see my forthcoming works.

Cheers,

Don


Your signature line is a tad misleading then...

Don's signature line wrote:
Here for mutually beneficial scholarly discussions on LDS history and scripture.

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Apostasy's A Bummer
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:27 am 
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DonBradley wrote:
The other day I had lunch with Chris Smith, Runtu, and Kevin Graham, whom I met then for the first time. The conversation, which lasted maybe an hour and a half, was almost entirely about other posters on the Mormon message boards. I don't believe I said anything about those posters that was unkind. One of the few specific statements I remember making was that I thought Paul Osborne had made a great Mormon and that I'd been very sorry to see him leave the Church--a view I've previously expressed to Paul on this board and which I want to reiterate to him now.


Well, I can appreciate anything positive anyone says about me. So thanks. I wish you every happiness in whatever you do in life. Happiness and fulfillment are all that count. And don't worry, I won't ask you the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3. We both know there is no king's name in the Egyptian writing.

I am very happy living outside of the church and enjoy my new life more than I ever dreamed possible.

:wink:

Paul O

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