Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehlin?

mormonstories · **Joined:** Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:10 pm **Posts:** 98

My message to FAIR/FARMS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmj6JADOZ-8

Please stop. You're hurting people.

RockSlider · **Joined:** Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2924

stemelbow,

sometimes its best to bow out once you have been so, so far outclassed.

stemelbow · **Joined:** Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:40 pm **Posts:** 5872

RockSlider wrote:

stemelbow,

sometimes its best to bow out once you have been so, so far outclassed.

Why is no one willing to answer questions on this topic? Its so weird. Are you the guy who went after Daniel relentlessly on Liz's old board? Can't remember.

RockSlider · **Joined:** Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:02 pm **Posts:** 2924

mormonstories wrote:

My message to FAIR/FARMS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmj6JADOZ-8

Please stop. You're hurting people.

perfect!

just stop!

static · **Joined:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:34 pm **Posts:** 102

This is just too juicy to pass up!

I love conspiracy theories; the crazier, the better. I used to automatically reject them, but I've since learned my lesson. I believe all are true until proven otherwise.

In this case, we have no evidence whatever for this "hit piece," aside from a few far-out conspiracy theories, but it must exist! It must exist because it would fulfill the wildest fantasies of all who hate the apologists.

And therefore it does exist. I believe in it. If you wish hard enough, it can be true for you, too!

lostindc · **Joined:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:27 pm **Posts:** 1208

static wrote:

This is just too juicy to pass up!

I love conspiracy theories; the crazier, the better. I used to automatically reject them, but I've since learned my lesson. I believe all are true until proven otherwise.

In this case, we have no evidence whatever for this "hit piece," aside from a few far-out conspiracy theories, but it must exist! It must exist because it would fulfill the wildest fantasies of all who hate the apologists.

And therefore it does exist. I believe in it. If you wish hard enough, it can be true for you, too!

There is eyewitness evidence of the existence of the "hit piece." Add to the fact, DCP did not deny the existence of the text in his recent post pertaining to the text.

SteelHead · **Posted:** Tue May 08, 2012 9:00 am

Somebody leak this sucka through back channels. I suggest paste bin.

static · **Joined:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:34 pm **Posts:** 102

lostindc wrote:

There is eyewitness evidence of the existence of the "hit piece."

Yes, as I said, I believe this wacky conspiracy theory to be 100% true. After all, we have someone saying they saw something. That's proof enough for me!

I just saw Nessie. That's eyewitness proof right there!

Quote:

Add to the fact, DCP did not deny the existence of the text in his recent post pertaining to the text.

Add to the fact that DCP did not deny the existence of Nessie, I think we have a solid case here, lostindc.

I wonder what else DCP didn't deny the existence of.....

mormonstories · **Joined:** Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:10 pm **Posts:** 98

static wrote:

This is just too juicy to pass up!

I love conspiracy theories; the crazier, the better. I used to automatically reject them, but I've since learned my lesson. I believe all are true until proven otherwise.

In this case, we have no evidence whatever for this "hit piece," aside from a few far-out conspiracy theories, but it must exist! It must exist because it would fulfill the wildest fantasies of all who hate the apologists.

And therefore it does exist. I believe in it. If you wish hard enough, it can be true for you, too!

You guys are awesome. In my desire to respect the leaders of the church you claim to defend....you use that against me and claim plausible deniability. Classic.

Just go ask Daniel Peterson if he was about to publish a multi-page, footnoted critique of me in the latest version of his journal. Here's his email address: daniel_peterson@byu.edu. Go ask Greg Smith if he authored a lengthy article criticizing me and my work at Mormon Stories. Ask them if GA's got involved and shut the whole thing down.

All you have to do is ask them...then return...and report. If they deny it, they are lying.

But you won't. Predictable.

static · **Joined:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:34 pm **Posts:** 102

mormonstories wrote:

You guys are awesome. In my desire to respect the leaders of the church you claim to defend....you use that against me and claim plausible deniability. Classic.

Just go ask Daniel Peterson if he was about to publish a multi-page, footnoted critique of me in the latest version of his journal. Here's his email address: daniel_peterson@byu.edu. Go ask Greg Smith if he authored a lengthy article criticizing me and my work at Mormon Stories. All you have to do is ask them...then return...and report. But you won't. Predictable.

Pardon me. I thought we were talking about a "hit piece" that was supposed to be "100 pages," not a "multi-page, footnoted critique." My god, man! If someone can't write a critique then what can they do?

And no, I will not ask them. As I said, I believe your wacky theories - all of them.

Stormy Waters · **Posted:** Tue May 08, 2012 9:08 am

static wrote:

Yes, as I said, I believe this wacky conspiracy theory to be 100% true. After all, we have someone saying they saw something. That's proof enough for me!

I just saw Nessie. That's eyewitness proof right there!

I'll keep this in mind next time someone mentions the witnesses for the Book of Mormom.

Fence Sitter · **Joined:** Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am **Posts:** 3483

Doctor Scratch wrote:

The Mopologists have publicly targeted a lot of people: Mike Quinn, Grant Palmer, Tom Murphy, Brent Metcalfe, Dan Vogel, Rodney Meldrum, and many, many others. I don't think I would describe any of these people as actually wanting to do "harm" to Mormonism, but that hasn't stopped the Mopologists from wanting to destroy their reputations in Mormon circles. One very prominent Mormon scholar once told me that Midgley, Peterson, and Hamblin view all of this as "a game." To them it's fun to attack these people, to tear them apart and watch as the "unwashed masses" lap all of it up. So it must really sting for somebody like DCP when he is castigated by the younger guys, like LoaP and the narrator. The good news seems to be that change is on the horizon. Yes: they've handed off the torch to Greg Smith, who is really turning out to be extraordinarily rotten, but apart from him, I don't think there will be many others who will be willing to perpetuate this "rotten enterprise."

FWIW I was a student of Midgley's in the early 80's and heard a few conversations where he talked about people like Shipps and Mormon history in general. I actually attended a meeting of sorts at a residence where several of the BYU professors were sharing their views about history. (Besides Midgley the only other professor I can remember being there was David Bohn.) It has been a long time so I do not remember the specifics of any conversations, yet to this day I remember how much Midgley seemed to be enjoying the whole affair. His eyes would light up when he used terms like "this is a war" and "everyone wears rose colored glasses".

SteelHead · **Posted:** Tue May 08, 2012 9:14 am

Taint it funny?

The protesters of the existence of the hit piece are the selfsame promoters of:
seer stones
golden plates
angels with flaming swords
Book of Abraham
civilizations for which not a scrap of evidence has been found in a 180 years of looking.

But if they follow John's suggestion and went to the horses mouth................ What do you think will happen?

mormonstories · **Joined:** Fri Jan 05, 2007 10:10 pm **Posts:** 98

static wrote:

Pardon me. I thought we were talking about a "hit piece" that was supposed to be "100 pages," not a "multi-page, footnoted critique." My god, man! If someone can't write a critique then what can they do?

And no, I will not ask them. As I said, I believe your wacky theories - all of them.

Classic, classic apologetic dissembling.

lostindc · **Joined:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:27 pm **Posts:** 1208

static wrote:

lostindc wrote:

There is eyewitness evidence of the existence of the "hit piece."

Yes, as I said, I believe this wacky conspiracy theory to be 100% true. After all, we have someone saying they saw something. That's proof enough for me!

I just saw Nessie. That's eyewitness proof right there!

Quote:

Add to the fact, DCP did not deny the existence of the text in his recent post pertaining to the text.

Add to the fact that DCP did not deny the existence of Nessie, I think we have a solid case here, lostindc.

I wonder what else DCP didn't deny the existence of.....

Will,

I am not sure why you are trying to play peek-a-boo games. DCP et al. (FAIR folks) had the option of denying the existence of this hit piece. DCP has undertaken the time to discuss this very thread yet never denied the existence of the hit piece. So either he is not denying the hit piece because the hit piece exists or because DCP et al. want John Dehlin to feel threatened by the possibilities.

A simple acknowledgement or denial is all that is requested. The lack of the denial is a sign of guilt in this situation. There is nothing vague about the request. We are not discussing bigfoot, we are discussing a hit piece from DCP and gang that has been confirmed by several.

static · **Joined:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:34 pm **Posts:** 102

SteelHead wrote:

Taint it funny?

The protesters of the existence of the hit piece are the selfsame promoters of:
seer stones
golden plates
angels with flaming swords
Book of Abraham
civilizations for which not a scrap of evidence has been found in a 180 years of looking.

But if they follow John's suggestion and went to the horses mouth................ What do you think will happen?

Yes, veer from the subject at hand in a diversion tactic. We wouldn't want anyone else to know of the utter truthfulness of the conspiracy theory that BYU professors are attacking Mr. Dehlin with a "100 page hit piece" or was it a "critique"?

LOL

Quote:

I am not sure why you are trying to play peek-a-boo games. DCP et al. (FAIR folks) had the option of denying the existence of this hit piece. DCP has undertaken the time to discuss this very thread yet never denied the existence of the hit piece. So either he is not denying the hit piece because the hit piece exists or because DCP et al. want John Dehlin to feel threatened by the possibilities.

I'm confused. You say it is a "hit piece," mormonstories says it is a "critique." Is no one allowed to write commentary on someone's work?

And, let's keep in mind that DCP had the opportunity to deny a lot of things (the existence of Bigfoot, for example), but he hasn't. That doesn't mean he's admitted to believing in such things.

Quote:

A simple acknowledgement or denial is all that is requested. The lack of the denial is a sign of guilt in this situation. There is nothing vague about the request. We are not discussing bigfoot, we are discussing a hit piece from DCP and gang that has been confirmed by several.

If only we would all comply with your every request. Wouldn't that be nice?

Stormy Waters · **Posted:** Tue May 08, 2012 9:19 am

SteelHead wrote:

Taint it funny?

The protesters of the existence of the hit piece are the selfsame promoters of:
seer stones
golden plates
angels with flaming swords
Book of Abraham
civilizations for which not a scrap of evidence has been found in a 180 years of looking.

But if they follow John's suggestion and went to the horses mouth................ What do you think will happen?

I've prayed about it and I've recieved a spiritual witness of the existence of said hit piece. I feel warm inside, that means it's true right?

static · **Joined:** Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:34 pm **Posts:** 102

mormonstories wrote:

Classic, classic apologetic dissembling.

Classic dismissal.

Is it a "100 page hit piece" or is it a "multi-page critique?"

We may never know. I think we should immediately censor all "critiques" in the world. That way, no one will have their feelings hurt.

lostindc · **Joined:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:27 pm **Posts:** 1208

static wrote:

I'm confused. You say it is a "hit piece," mormonstories says it is a "critique." Is no one allowed to write commentary on someone's work?

And, let's keep in mind that DCP had the opportunity to deny a lot of things (the existence of Bigfoot, for example), but he hasn't. That doesn't mean he's admitted to believing in such things.

Some see the Garden of Eden in Botticelli's Primavera whereas other see a giant 0rgy. At this point, I find any personal criticism of Dehlin to be nothing less than a hit piece. There is little reason for personal criticism birthed from DCP et al.

Quote:

A simple acknowledgement or denial is all that is requested. The lack of the denial is a sign of guilt in this situation. There is nothing vague about the request. We are not discussing bigfoot, we are discussing a hit piece from DCP and gang that has been confirmed by several.

If only we would all comply with your every request. Wouldn't that be nice?[/quote]

Will,

Compliance with the request of acknowledgement or denial of this hit piece is simple courtesy, much like giving DCP et al. a voice on Mormon Stories.

Being that DCP et al. have decided to 'mess' with Dehlin suggests a very malicious attitude of the LDS apologetics posse.

lostindc · **Joined:** Wed Oct 07, 2009 5:27 pm **Posts:** 1208

static wrote:

mormonstories wrote:

Classic, classic apologetic dissembling.

Classic dismissal.

Is it a "100 page hit piece" or is it a "multi-page critique?"

We may never know. I think we should immediately censor all "critiques" in the world. That way, no one will have their feelings hurt.

Will,

Classic rebuttal. Simple distraction fallacies.

We are not asking for censoring of critiques rather an acknowledgement or denial of the existence of the text in discussion. Mundane, basic, sophistical devices will not distract the audience from the core phenomenon.

Buffalo · **Posted:** Tue May 08, 2012 9:51 am

mormonstories wrote:

Somebody please capture his post via copy/paste (oh wait, I already have).

It's so classic...and condemning. I have incontrovertible proof of 1) the existence of the essay/hit piece....2) his knowledge about it....3) the GA condemnation of the whole enterprise....and 4) his direct censure (as it relates to all this).....so his use of the word "alleged" stands as a classic, yet condemning example of his continued disingenuous-ness as an apologist. The only thing that keeps me from releasing the evidence is my respect for those (including the GA's) who have supported me -- but you can count on him and his followers to take advantage of me in this regard (plausible deniability -- another classic LDS apologetic tactic...it's their whole foundation...really...when you get right down to it).

Does anyone else note how sad it is that Daniel Peterson now communicates from a solo blog where he doesn't even allow comments.....that he no longer even has the ability or credibility to directly engage in the difficult conversations? This is LDS apologetics in the 20th and 21st centuries...retreat only to places where you are surrounded by supporters...because if you engage critics directly in a neutral forum....you come off looking so silly...as if you are trying to prove the location of Santa's workshop.

I really, honestly, truly feel sorry for Daniel Peterson, Mike Ash, Allen Wyatt, Scott Gordon, Trevor Holyoak, John Lynch, Jack Welch, etc. They have built their houses upon sand, and now the foundation is slowly washing away. Even the brethren seem to see the writing on the wall (though we obviously have a long way to go in that regard). Still -- so much of their life's work is truly (and unfortunately) an embarrassment and damaging to the church, Mormonism and Mormons alike: a sad, destructive sham.

So I feel sorry for them that in some sense, they have been (and ultimately will be) left out to dry. As dupes. More importantly, I feel sorry for them that in trying to be helpful to the situation, they have only accelerated the pain/damage.....vs. served as a constructive part of the solution. The data from our survey are very clear (at least to me) -- LDS apologetics accelerate disaffection and disillusionment from the LDS church, because they are: 1) their responses are often mean-spirited and un-Christlike, and 2) they are simply not credible (i.e. tapirs, steel isn't steel, etc.)...so when someone who is truly struggling reads their stuff, they eventually walk away saying, "If this is the best that the church can do....then I'm outta here."

Up until now (2012), LDS apologetics have been a tragic, damaging, train-wreck-of-an embarrassment to everyone involved. May it rest in peace.

My suggestion to this board: At some point, it's time to ignore the troll(s)....and move on. They're just. not. credible...and honestly do not deserve our (or anyone's) attention any longer. The scholarly/scientific community ignores them (see previous comment about the North Pole). The believing bloggernacle ignores them (except to mock or condemn them). Mormonism writ large ignores them. It is only us (and the Deseret News) who gives them life/airplay. I think that the smartest thing Mormon Discussions could ever do would be to stop giving them air time...and let them fade away.

They are just....not....credible in any meaningful way, shape or form. They are a tragic, damaging joke. If I weren't so thoroughly exposed on a daily basis to the damage they have done (and continue to do) to thousands of Mormons and to the church, I would not speak so harshly. But I am....so I do.

My 2 cents.

My message to FAIR/FARMS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmj6JADOZ-8

Please stop. You're hurting people. You're hurting the church. You are embarrassing yourselves, and Mormonism writ large. Please, please, please find another way. Anytime you want me help...I'll be there for you. I can help you. Just call or email. 435 227-5776 mormonstories@gmail.com

To quote from the chorus of "The Spirit of God,"

Amen, and amen.

Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehlin?

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