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 Post subject: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehlin?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:39 am 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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We now know, thanks to multiple reliable sources, that a Dan Peterson-led verbal assault on "Mormon Stories" host John Dehlin was successfully averted thanks to the intervention of one of the Apostles. But a lot of questions remain: Was DCP the principal author of this attack? Was it really "100" pages long? And what did it say?

FARMS / The Maxwell Institute has always been the front line for attacks on critics: if a full-blown character assassination takes place in the pages of the Review, you rest assured that this has the status of orthodoxy amongst the lower-tier Mopologists. Bearing that in mind, I cannot help but wonder how the cancellation of this "hit piece" on Dehlin will play out in the Mopologetic "farm system"--i.e., FAIR. On a separate thread, I pointed out that some of the FAIR personnel had cyber-stalked John Dehlin and harvested a comment of his off of Facebook in order to portray him in a negative light on a FAIR Wiki entry. Ultimately, somebody--probably Wiki Wonka, imo--thought better of it and deleted the comment.

Clearly, this demonstrated that there is a great deal of hostility among the FAIR volunteers on the topic of John Dehlin. Perhaps readers here recall a bit of a get-together and UVU, where Dehlin appeared on a panel. Interestingly, it seems that Allen "The Slug" Wyatt set up a kind of "gotcha" situation, where with the camera rolling, he seemed ready to catch Dehlin in all his "evil"

http://www.fairblog.org/2012/05/02/look ... ment-76459

Allen Wyatt wrote:
On March 29, 2012, Utah Valley University hosted a fascinating conference entitled Mormonism and the Internet. Perhaps the most interesting exchanges, for me, were those in session five of the conference, which was a panel discussion among John Dehlin, Scott Gordon, and Rosemary Avance. UVU has just posted this particular conference session online, and I just watched it again.

Rather early in the panel discussion, I asked a question of John Dehlin, as a follow-up to his presentation earlier in the day.You can hear my question beginning at about 13:05 into the video:

Quote:
People often study the same facts or issues and come to vastly different conclusions—some have their faith strengthened, while others have their faith destroyed. To what do you attribute this difference in outcome, and why do you feel that the stories of those who have suffered a negative outcome should be privileged over those with a positive outcome?


Dehlin gives a rather lengthy reply, but Wyatt finds his answer unsatisfying, and he immediately assumes that Dehlin is prevaricating:

Allen Wyatt wrote:
At first I thought that John was being evasive; he didn’t really answer my question which was how people can study the same data and come to differing conclusions.


Does he have a point, though? Dehlin, in his response, lays out a whole set of different reasons why people would approach the "study" (strange word choice, no?) of unpleasant Church history and doctrine in different ways. He explains that people come to different conclusions largely because of their personal situation within the Church: especially the extent to which their life station allows them to fully "question" the Church's truth claims. (For example, Dehlin implies at one point that it is probably impossible for BYU professors to openly and honestly question the Church's claims, because their employment is dependent upon their obedience.)

Wyatt wraps up his inquiry/attack with a series of rhetorical questions:

Quote:
So I thought I would pose the question here that John raises in the middle of his answer; the one that he seems to obliquely answer by his own faith journey: What happens when a person looks honestly at the facts or issues of Mormonism? Does honesty demand that such questions inevitably lead to a loss of faith, or can one be honest and remain a member of the church?


So, whereas Dehlin's repsose confronts an array of problems and issues, Wyatt has worked to reframe all of this as a kind of black-and-white war, where anyone who stays in the Church is "dishonest." It appears that Wyatt is less interested in actually exploring the issues, and more interested in painting Dehlin as a villain, and in continuing the war with critics. Besides, I think the answer is fairly obvious, and that Wyatt already knows it: the answer is, "Yes." A clear example of this would be Terryl Givens, who appeared on Dehlin's podcast and openly admitted that the Church has basically lied by omission, and that people have every right to feel deceived if they don't learn about, say, polyandry until their forties (or whatever). Someone like Wyatt or DCP would never admit this, though. They may say that there are "problems" with CES, or something benign like that, but they would never, ever acknowledge the sense of betrayal that so many people feel--and this is what Dehlin has been trying to address and correct.

In any case, it is interesting to watch these attacks on Dehlin playing out. Perhaps the most telling thing on the thread was the first comment, from none other than Mike "Tuffy" Parker, of SHIELDS fame:

Mike Parker wrote:
An important side note is that John Dehlin’s study — which he refers to when he speaks of “our data” — was not rigorously done. Instead of polling random former Mormons, he solicited responses from ex-Mormons who follow his podcast and run in the same circles with him. The bias here, from a polling standpoint, is enormous.

in short, his data tell us nothing because his survey sample is homogeneous and voluntary.


Ah. So *that's* it. This is why Dehlin is threatening to them.

The Mopologists have always, always relied on the tactic of insisting that the "sense of betrayal" that I described above is false. We have seen evidence for this again and again: they accuse questioning posters of being trolls. They do what Wyatt did and insist that "smart people can still believe!" (hence "Mormon Scholars Testify"). They paint disaffected members as sinners, lazy, stupid, etc. So Dehlin's study--regardless of its methodological flaws--must be incredibly threatening to them, since it could potentially demonstrate just how real and concrete the problems actually are. If the study's results are true, it takes away one of the Mopologists' main avenues of attack. So of course Wyatt, Parker, Smith and others are freaking out.

And "Tuffy" Parker's criticisms seem somewhat overblown. Yes, it is a problem that the survey was "voluntary" (has there ever been a legit social science survey that wasn't techincally "voluntary"?), but I don't know why Parker is assuming that the sample set is somehow *not* indicative of wider trends in Mormonism. He complains that "[Dehlin] solicited responses from ex-Mormons who follow his podcast and run in the same circles with him," though it's not quite clear why Parker thinks this, or why it amounts to a legitimate criticism. As far as I can tell, Dehlin has an enormous audience that encompasses both believing LDS and ex-Mormons. He attracts people like Richard Bushman, Mike Quinn, and Terryl Givens as guests, so I see no reason to assume that the only respondents were "ex-Mormons ...[who]..run in the same circles." I bet that Parker himself listens to the podcast, so, again: Who is he talking about here?

In any event, it will be very interesting to see if these "farm team" Mopologists will be able to restrain their anger and hatred, or if they will step up their attacks on Dehlin.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:12 am 
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FYI - The primary author on the hit piece was Greg Smith, though I'm certain that Peterson and Midgley played a heavy role. I suspect that Trevor Holyoak was involved as well.

I've let Scott Gordon know about the entire story, including extensive GA involvement. If FAIR ends up publishing the piece, it will be with full knowledge and in spite of GA disapproval.


Last edited by mormonstories on Sun May 06, 2012 11:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:15 am 
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mormonstories wrote:
FYI - The primary author on the hit piece was Greg Smith, though I'm certain that Peterson and Midgley played a heavy role.


Bombshell! John, have you seen the piece?

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:16 am 
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Equality wrote:
mormonstories wrote:
FYI - The primary author on the hit piece was Greg Smith, though I'm certain that Peterson and Midgley played a heavy role.


Bombshell! John, have you seen the piece?


No.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:34 am 
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mormonstories wrote:
FYI - The primary author on the hit piece was Greg Smith, though I'm certain that Peterson and Midgley played a heavy role. I suspect that Trevor Holyoak was involved as well.

I've let Scott Gordon know about the entire story, including extensive GA involvement. If FAIR ends up publishing the piece, it will be with full knowledge and in spite of GA disapproval.


Hi, John. Thanks for stopping by, and for confirming what has been said. I think it's unfortunate that all of these Mopologists have been going after you in this way. And why did Smith write the piece? Why didn't Midgley or Peterson do it themselves? Letting someone else do "the dirty work," I guess?

Also: I don't know if you're at liberty to say, but could you perhaps tell us which of the General Authorities intervened in this matter?

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:40 am 
Well if a GA put a stop to it, they need to remove the disclaimer on their website that says, "FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." If church authorities know about and are able to veto articles before they are published it appears as if the disclaimer isn't true.

It's interesting to see how the church chooses to deal with John Dehlin. Sometimes I think the only thing keeping them from excommunicating him is that it would make for bad PR. But maybe they are becoming more accommodating to unorthodox beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:51 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
I don't know if you're at liberty to say, but could you perhaps tell us which of the General Authorities intervened in this matter?


Would love to give you names, but can't out of respect for those who stuck their necks out to help me.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:57 am 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
Well if a GA put a stop to it, they need to remove the disclaimer on their website that says, "FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."


This quote is there for the church's protection, not for any other reason. If the church wanted it down, it would come down.

Stormy Waters wrote:
If church authorities know about and are able to veto articles before they are published it appears as if the disclaimer isn't true.


I think that "true" is only one of many criteria for those involved.

Stormy Waters wrote:
It's interesting to see how the church chooses to deal with John Dehlin. Sometimes I think the only thing keeping them from excommunicating him is that it would make for bad PR. But maybe they are becoming more accommodating to unorthodox beliefs.


I think that the church operates based on its best interest. They do whatever they think helps them preserve strength. That is their main value, in my opinion/experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:00 pm 
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mormonstories wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
I don't know if you're at liberty to say, but could you perhaps tell us which of the General Authorities intervened in this matter?


Would love to give you names, but can't out of respect for those who stuck their necks out to help me.


Well, that's understandable. On the other hand, these are the top leaders in the Church, so I can't really see what it is that they are "risking." It's not as if Midgley, DCP & Co. are going to suddenly start writing hit pieces about Elders Holland and Nelson, say.

Regardless, thanks again for helping to clear up some questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:12 pm 
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The thing they hate the most is when one of their own leaves the fold and becomes something of a critic. I know it better than anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:16 pm 
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I am glad John showed up to set the record straight. It seems as though Greg Smith is really out to earn his stripes: gushing in risible hyperbole over Schryver's paper, attacking Rodney Meldrum, and now taking aim at John Dehlin. Here are the notches on the belt of an aspiring top-tier Mopologist. Shameless ambition, if you ask me.

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Last edited by Kishkumen on Sun May 06, 2012 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:21 pm 
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I am quite glad that Scratch is keeping these apologists feet to the fire. I am particularly glad that John was able to express himself in this forum and gives us some more information.

I would suggest that Peterson and co. feel that Greg Smith was the perfect person to write the article. He has absolutely no tack and will fall on any sword his buddies ask him to fall on of the faith.


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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:34 pm 
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I am struck by Dan Peterson's incredible cowardice. He is hiding: using his self-indulgent, uninspired and redundant blog to hurl limp-wristed attacks at the critics. Once upon a time he actually had the gumption to answer criticisms right here on the board. Once upon a time, he actually wrote these "hit pieces" himself, rather than hiding behind somebody like Dr. Greg Smith.

It's all really quite hilarious. I'm curious about how much of a delay this has caused the Review, and how much time Elder Greg Smith frittered away in penning this 100-page smear. All of this makes it even more interesting that they deleted the cyber-stalking bit from that FAIR Wiki entry. As I recall, Smith is heavily involved with the Wiki, and it was believed that he was responsible for that reprehensible gossip about Bob McCue.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
The thing they hate the most is when one of their own leaves the fold and becomes something of a critic. I know it better than anyone.


It's hard for me to see John as a critic, if so, he is about as mild as it could come in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:46 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
The thing they hate the most is when one of their own leaves the fold and becomes something of a critic. I know it better than anyone.


It's hard for me to see John as a critic, if so, he is about as mild as it could come in my opinion.


And, to his credit, he was never on the FARMS/NMI/FAIR "team" of apologists.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:50 pm 
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Stormy Waters wrote:
Well if a GA put a stop to it, they need to remove the disclaimer on their website that says, "FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." If church authorities know about and are able to veto articles before they are published it appears as if the disclaimer isn't true.


All members are controlled by the church. Those that are not, are not members any more. If one of the GAs says "jump", the answer is "how high" on the way up. So in this case, one of the GAs said "no", and MI complied.

Nothing new in Zion.

Quote:
It's interesting to see how the church chooses to deal with John Dehlin. Sometimes I think the only thing keeping them from excommunicating him is that it would make for bad PR.


Look at Murphy's example. Same deal, diffferent day.

Quote:
But maybe they are becoming more accommodating to unorthodox beliefs.


You are so funny.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:03 pm 
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Allen Wyatt is a snake. A lying, deceiving nasty little man - along with his whole organization and the funding that backs it. He will do anything to lie and cheat for the Mormon Cult. Nothing he says can be trusted, period. John has the desire to show there are inherent problems with Mormonism. Wyatt and Peterson don't want anyone to know about these problems. So they do what they do best - attack, mislead, misdirect, lie, obfuscate. They set up websites to attack those who are critical of Mormonism. It is almost as if they do the dirty work of the Mormon Apostles - in a way that the Apostles can always claim they had no knowledge nor any backing.

EDIT: Removed most of content as it was really irrelevant to this thread.

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Last edited by Infymus on Mon May 07, 2012 8:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:08 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
The thing they hate the most is when one of their own leaves the fold and becomes something of a critic. I know it better than anyone.


It's hard for me to see John as a critic, if so, he is about as mild as it could come in my opinion.


I agree. He was reaching out to them when he had DCP as a guest on his podcast, and yet now it appears that they are stabbing him in the back. And the fact that Prof. P. is basically sneaking around in order to do this is pretty appalling, though it's not surprising. I suppose that some good may yet come of this: the younger "Vanguard" generation of apologists is already waking up to the fact that the Old School Mopologists are bad news, and this will only lead to more alienation, and more realization that the Midgley/Gee/Peterson way of doing things is problematic. But you would think that even the real hard-hat types--the Parkers, Wyatts, and so on--would find this level of cowardice alarming. Part of the reason that these guys got on board with Skinny-L-style apologetics is because they admired the was that Hamblin, Peterson et al. would go boldly "swashbuckling" with the critics. But now their "Kingpin" has been reduced to crouching behind the beanpole-ish Greg Smith? Really? Perhaps Parker, Wyatt, and the others are too stupid or careless to notice this, but I would think that wimpiness on this level would be extremely alarming to them.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:34 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
But now their "Kingpin" has been reduced to crouching behind the beanpole-ish Greg Smith? Really? Perhaps Parker, Wyatt, and the others are too stupid or careless to notice this, but I would think that wimpiness on this level would be extremely alarming to them.


If DCP was willing to go out on a limb to push back against an apostle's opposition to this Smith attack on Dehlin, he may be more of a "kingpin" in Mopologetics than he has led us to believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
But now their "Kingpin" has been reduced to crouching behind the beanpole-ish Greg Smith? Really? Perhaps Parker, Wyatt, and the others are too stupid or careless to notice this, but I would think that wimpiness on this level would be extremely alarming to them.


If DCP was willing to go out on a limb to push back against an apostle's opposition to this Smith attack on Dehlin, he may be more of a "kingpin" in Mopologetics than he has led us to believe.


Wow, are you suggesting that Prof. P. may have openly defied an Apostle's commandments?

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 Post subject: Re: Allen Wyatt, Mike Parker & FAIR: A Growing Fear of Dehli
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
The thing they hate the most is when one of their own leaves the fold and becomes something of a critic. I know it better than anyone.



Don't go into the kitchen if the heat level there is not to hour liking.

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