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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:23 pm 
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harmony wrote:
They google in mine too... just not FARMS or FAIR. If they need guidance, they go to the bishop. If they need doctrine, they go to LDS.org. They aren't interested in whatever FARMS or FAIR is selling.
I suspect that the percentage of members in my ward who are full tithe payers is much higher than the average; with a 98% activity rate, no doubt there are few who doubt. We aren't your average 40% ward. None of the rural wards here are.
Perhaps that is why FARMS and FAIR have no influence here: strong stalwart pioneer stock with testimonies that are generations deep.
I agree with harmony. FARMS and FAIR have very little influence on the vast majority of Mormon thinking. For example, I'll look at it for cited source material, but that is about the extent of my interest in them. They certainly aren't opinion shapers of Mormonism.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:45 pm 
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FAIR and MAXWELL "are" the Church.....

Volunteer and official organizations made up of members of the Church.
There is no "correlation" committee dictating a people can and can't say. There's peer review, a type of correlation, but with a different purpose. It's purpose is not to be in conformity to a doctrine, but to the whole truth. Fortunately, because the Church is actually true, they are in conformity to the doctrine and otherwise related to the Church.
Thus, the views expressed in those articles ARE in fact Mormonism in full and accurate.

I should know, I'm a Mormon.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:24 am 
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Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
After recently spending some time reading their articles, I will never steer a questioning member of my Ward to any materials published by FARMS or FAIR. I’m thoroughly convinced that the activities and published materials of FARMS/FAIR are directly related to the erosion in membership growth and, as Elder Jenson recently revealed, the current mass exodus of members.

In the last several weeks, I have also seen first-hand how truly damaging FARMS and FAIR are to struggling members who have sincere questions and doubts.

Most of what FARMS/FAIR writes directly contradicts published statements by past and present LDS Prophets and LDS leaders. They spin a twisted, convoluted, outlandish, complex version of Mormonism (the result of having to explain so many inconsistencies and other troubling evidences away) that it’s completely unrecognizable to the average Mormon.

The arguments of FARMS/FAIR are trivially weak to me, resolving disputes by definition, by simple appeal to authority, or by pure ad hominem attack. Furthermore, the doctrinal positions invoked included a willingness to unconditionally reject all uncanonized statements by Church leaders when advantageous, or accept all uncanonized statements if advantageous for the sake of argument. This inconsistency for the sake of argument is disingenuous and totally insane.

Most important, the manner in which FARMS/FAIR addresses critics is completely inappropriate and unchristlike. In The Book of Mormon, the critics and anti-Christs are never convincingly defeated by argument. Time and again it is the Prophets’ personal revelatory experiences that fortify them as individuals and end up convincing the entire community.

Finally, FARMS/FAIR writers are not “scholars,” they are apologists. They do not use scholarly (scientific) methods, but instead pervert the scientific method by beginning with the conclusion and working backward to the premises, and they scrupulously avoid submitting their work to true peer review by the scientific/scholarly community. To self -label themselves as “scholars” is an act of overt, but misapplied, generosity.

With friends like FARMS/FAIR, the Church doesn’t need any enemies.


FARMS will never see it like that. FARMS is less dedicated to defending the church than it is to defending itself.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:25 am 
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Tobin wrote:
harmony wrote:
They google in mine too... just not FARMS or FAIR. If they need guidance, they go to the bishop. If they need doctrine, they go to LDS.org. They aren't interested in whatever FARMS or FAIR is selling.
I suspect that the percentage of members in my ward who are full tithe payers is much higher than the average; with a 98% activity rate, no doubt there are few who doubt. We aren't your average 40% ward. None of the rural wards here are.
Perhaps that is why FARMS and FAIR have no influence here: strong stalwart pioneer stock with testimonies that are generations deep.
I agree with harmony. FARMS and FAIR have very little influence on the vast majority of Mormon thinking. For example, I'll look at it for cited source material, but that is about the extent of my interest in them. They certainly aren't opinion shapers of Mormonism.


I think they've had some influence. Christofferson's fuzzy redefinition of doctrine sounds like it was written by an apologist.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:30 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
FAIR and MAXWELL "are" the Church.....

Volunteer and official organizations made up of members of the Church.
There is no "correlation" committee dictating a people can and can't say. There's peer review, a type of correlation, but with a different purpose. It's purpose is not to be in conformity to a doctrine, but to the whole truth. Fortunately, because the Church is actually true, they are in conformity to the doctrine and otherwise related to the Church.
Thus, the views expressed in those articles ARE in fact Mormonism in full and accurate.

I should know, I'm a Mormon.



FAIR seems to disagree with you....
Quote:
FAIR is not owned, controlled by or affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. All research and opinions provided on this site are the sole responsibility of FAIR, and should not be interpreted as official statements of LDS doctrine, belief or practice.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:34 am 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
FAIR and MAXWELL "are" the Church.....


Bullshaloney. Absolute bull. They are no more the "Church" than the BYU is the Church.

Quote:
Volunteer and official organizations made up of members of the Church.


So? That doesn't make them the "Church".

Quote:
There is no "correlation" committee dictating a people can and can't say.


In their case, correlation would be an improvement.

Quote:
There's peer review, a type of correlation, but with a different purpose.


Peer review is not a type of correlation. You don't get to make up definitions just because you want to, ldsfaq.

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It's purpose is not to be in conformity to a doctrine, but to the whole truth.


Do you really think you're helping? Because you just circumvented their apologetic mission.

Quote:
Fortunately, because the Church is actually true, they are in conformity to the doctrine and otherwise related to the Church.
Thus, the views expressed in those articles ARE in fact Mormonism in full and accurate.


Well, the Church may indeed be true, but that doesn't mean FARMS and FAIR are. Your basic premise is flawed: FARMS and FAIR are not the "Church". They have no authority and hold no priesthood office that has authority over the whole church. They are not GAs, nor are they officially designated for any purpose, nor are they set apart for any purpose related to the general membership of the church.

They are, simply, members whose puffed up arrogance has overcome their station in life. Follow them at your peril. Stick to the Brethren; at least if they lead you astray, they carry the burden. If you follow FARMS/FAIR, when they lead you astray, YOU carry the burden.

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I should know, I'm a Mormon.


So am I. Next time you go to the temple, look across the aisle. One of those women might be me.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:26 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
No reasonable person would have expected Elder Holland when asked that question to think back 30 years on what Romney might have done.


Really? No reasonable person would expect Holland to answer the question he was asked?

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:40 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
FAIR and MAXWELL "are" the Church.....

Volunteer and official organizations made up of members of the Church.
There is no "correlation" committee dictating a people can and can't say. There's peer review, a type of correlation, but with a different purpose. It's purpose is not to be in conformity to a doctrine, but to the whole truth. Fortunately, because the Church is actually true, they are in conformity to the doctrine and otherwise related to the Church.
Thus, the views expressed in those articles ARE in fact Mormonism in full and accurate.



Most members in my ward and stake no little to nothing about FAIR and FARM, now the Maxwell institute. When I was a FAIR and FARM fan/groupie I used to talk the organizations up. Nobody knew much about them. Granted FAIR was in its early stages then. But the point is most who sit in the pews have little interest in this type of stuff.

Personally I can recall when I first found FARMS. I devoured many of the papers I found there. But I can recall saying to myself "Ok get to some good meaty defense here. Stop attacking the writer or talking about how unqualified they really are." Oh there were some good things but there was a lot not that great. And over time I found a group of writers that had to dismiss so much of what came out of the mouth of prophets as opinion or speculation. I found a church that I did not know. One where God really did not say much all that often by way of revelation but left men to their own devices quite a bit. It was not the Church that I was taught existed when I grew up or the Church I preached about when I served a mission.

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I should know, I'm a Mormon.


Most here either are or have been Mormons. You really don't know any better than most of us. You have no special authority to plead too.


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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:31 pm 
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Read my statement in "context" wankers.....

I was stating that FAIR/Maxwell are the Church "inasmuch" as those organizations are make up of it's believing members. In other words, I was debunking the claim that the members of the Church are somehow "different" than FAIR/Maxwell.

We are not. We are the Church, the Church is us. We are just as much a part of it as any member is. And we are no different than any other member.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:40 pm 
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Ok, here is my perspective: FARMS are FAIR are as relevant to shaping Mormon opinions as http://www.studychristianity.com/ is to shaping Baptist opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: With Friends Like FARMS, The Church Doesn't Need Enemies
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:45 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Read my statement in "context" wankers.....

I was stating that FAIR/Maxwell are the Church "inasmuch" as those organizations are make up of it's believing members. In other words, I was debunking the claim that the members of the Church are somehow "different" than FAIR/Maxwell.

We are not. We are the Church, the Church is us. We are just as much a part of it as any member is. And we are no different than any other member.


Ldsfaqs,

You are a believing knowledgeable Mormon who has been it, seen it, done it, believed it, disbelieved it, believed it again and has now reached a pinnacle of understanding of the true Gospel of Christ.

So why do you in your online posts break more commandments and more codes of Mormon conduct and behaviour than all the anti-mormon's put together?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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