On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

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_Doctor Scratch
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On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

Many here no doubt remember MsJack's epic thread detailing William Schryver's rancid treatment of women posters. The thread went on for some 50+ pages, and became something of a legend in online Internet Mormon Lore. I've always been a bit confused about the way the whole affair ended, though. To recap: after Schryver's misogyny was exposed, he was booted off the publication slate at the Maxwell Institute, and as far as anyone knows, his Book of Abraham publication remains in a state of limbo. That said, in the wake of the accusations and "booting," Dan Peterson came to Will's defense. "I've met him in person," DCP said. Prof. Peterson went on to stand up in Will's defense, claiming that he didn't seem like "a monster."

I, for one, was always confused about this. Will's behavior was condemned by a fairly significant segment of the Mormon Studies community: Blair Hodges, J Green, David Bokovoy, Brian Hauglid, and a number of other LDS commentators repudiated Will's behavior, and yet...strangely, Daniel C. Peterson, the "Kingpin" of LDS apologetics, said nothing. Instead, he anchored himself in Will's defense.

For a very long time now, I have been asking myself, "Why?" The obvious answer is that a true Mopologist will not give an inch. But, in light of some recent publications, I may have to reassess my position.

I don't know how many people have kept up with Dr. Peterson's "personal blog." I know that I have looked in on it from time to time. Mostly it is nothing special, but the recent postings have been striking. Reading them, I could not help but feel as if I was gazing upon something very peculiar.

Do you remember the old "Magic Eye" posters? Where you would stare at them, partially crossing your eyes, or "gazing into the horizon," until some unseen image suddenly came into focus? This was what I experienced as I read these recent DCP blog postings.

As best I can tell, it began with the commentary from Hilary Rosen, who accused Ann Romney of "never working." DCP has tried to frame this as an issue of Rosen attacking Ann Romney for being "family-oriented" (i.e., the old canard about stay-at-home moms "not working"), though as best I can tell, the critique was aimed more at the Romneys' upper-class status--i.e., that she can actually afford to be a stay-at-home mom.

In any event, Rosen's comments have been a springboard for a series of DCP posts in which he has, among other things, posted images of women in burqas as a means of attacking the Obama administration. Personally, I think this is in bad taste, but that is not really the main point of my thread.

Following his acidic commentary on the Ann Romney issue, and following his bizarre rant about the Obama administration's record on the treatment of women, Dr. Peterson posted a strange entry about "The Greatest Movie Ever Made," which, in his view, is Groundhog Day, starring Bill Murray. But this quote was remarkable:

Daniel C. Peterson, BYU Prof. wrote:Incidentally, I like The Manchurian Candidate even apart from the scene where Angela Lansbury's character gets shot. That part just makes it even better.

I can't account for my wholly irrational dislike of Angela Lansbury. By all accounts, she's a very talented lady, and extraordinarily nice. But there you have it.


http://dcpsicetnon.blogspot.com/

I've seen The Manchurian Candidate. And for the life of me, I cannot figure out why Dr. Peterson would so relish watching the major female character get "shot." This would have been strange all by itself, but he followed it up with this:

I have a reputation, in certain quarters -- carefully nurtured and cultivated by a number of my critics -- for being ruthless, unprincipled, cruel, and mean-spirited.

But I doubt that even my most hostile and spin-adept enemies can find anything in my literary oeuvre that is anywhere near as nasty as this passage, written by Los Angeles Times columnist Burt Prelutsky:

“Frankly, I don't know what it is about California, but we seem to have a strange urge to elect really obnoxious women to high office. I'm not bragging, you understand, but no other state, including Maine, even comes close. When it comes to sending left-wing dingbats to Washington, we're Number One. There's no getting around the fact that the last time anyone saw the likes of Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, Maxine Waters, and Nancy Pelosi, they were stirring a cauldron when the curtain went up on Macbeth. The four of them are like jackasses who happen to possess the gift of blab. You don't know if you should condemn them for their stupidity or simply marvel at their ability to form words."


"Why," I wondered, "is Dan Peterson posting this on his blog?" He explains immediately thereafter:

DCP wrote:I don't think that I would ever write such a passage, but I do admire it, in a certain way.

(My thanks to Stan Barker for bringing this item to my attention.)


I have to ask: Why would Dan Peterson highlight what he himself describes as "nasty," a piece that is devoted to attacking strictly female politicians from California? Not only does he quote it, he says he "admire[s] it, in a certain way." Why is that? Because they are women who deserve to be "put in their place"? Because they are from California (DCP's home state)? Because they are Democrats?

This, of course, brings me back to MsJack's epic thread. The most important question she posed in her OP was this: Are women welcome in Mormon Studies? The support for William Schryver, she argued, was clear evidence that there were forces in play that aimed to alienate women contributors. What needed to happen in the wake of this--many agreed--was that people, especially the male leaders at the Maxwell Institute, needed to step forward and take a legitimate position on Will's antics. Interestingly, Dan Peterson was always silent, save for his bizarre comment about how Will "didn't seem like a monster."

Now, it may very well be that I have been mis-reading his recent blog postings, but in my honest opinion, his latest offerings have seemed to be a very candid view into his real feelings. As I said, it is as if he was joking in such a way that it revealed his "real" feelings, values, and character. I, personally, will not brand him a "misogynist." If that's a title he deserves, I will leave it to others to apply it to him.

In the meantime, I suppose the rest of us can sit back and recline and marvel at the fact that this Professor of Middle Easter Studies at BYU--this father and former bishop--takes great delight in seeing Angela Lansbury of Murder She Wrote, killed by a bullet from a gun.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_Bond James Bond
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _Bond James Bond »

Prof. Scratch,

I think that Will Schryver-type behavior is, to use the Freudian terminology, the "Id" that many people admire and dream themselves acting but rarely actually act out on because they so often act carefully from their "Superego". Especially people whose behavior and decorum are in some way dictated by their position (especially positions that modern society in some ways considers "haughty" or "aloof" like academics but I also suspect politicians*1.) Once they're up there in their Ivory Tower*2 they think they have to behave a certain way and generally do, but can live vicariously through people with less to lose (or just don't give a damn) and are more free spoken.

To quote Robert the Bruce's father in Braveheart, "You admire this man, this William Wallace. Uncompromising men are easy to admire. He has courage; so does a dog. But it is exactly the ability to *compromise* that makes a man noble."

I think Dr. Peterson was just reflecting that people have a fascination with the dark side of life, especially in his case after living so long in the more "noble" arena of academia. He probably has a genuine love of opera and symphonies and high art and whatnot, but there also is a morbid part in a lot of people that just wants to watch something nasty or freaky, like a death knell or whatever. Why else do people rubber neck at car wrecks on the side of the road?

As a personal anecdote, I absolutely hate the Westboro Baptist Church people. I think they're completely wrong, that they're bigots, and every other thing you could say about how awful they are I would agree with. But I cannot help but admire the fullness of their commitment to their beliefs, if only because it's a testament to America's willingness to tolerate free speech and expression. I think that keeping free speech well stretched out with extremism is a good thing in case I ever need to make extreme use of it myself. (edit: I'm posting at 2 AM again so if it sounds like I lauded the Westboro people too much someone castigate me later in this thread :twisted: )

*1Caveat that political rhetoric has really ratcheted up the past few decades.

*2Wow I used "they're", "there", and "their" in a short space didn't I?
Last edited by Guest on Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _moksha »

Doctor Scratch wrote:In the meantime, I suppose the rest of us can sit back and recline and marvel at the fact that this Professor of Middle Easter Studies at BYU--this father and former bishop--takes great delight in seeing Angela Lansbury of Murder She Wrote, killed by a bullet from a gun.


While I don't understand Dr. Peterson's politics or reasoning behind that particular blurb against women in California politics, I can understand this type animosity. I have felt a similar stirring of dislike for Ann Coulter, although in this case it might be a wider concern for humanity being drawn into the lair of a Shelob-like critter. Dr. Peterson is not the only one who can be taken by a bout of irrationality.

All who failed to cast stones at William Schryver are not guilty by inaction.
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_RayAgostini

Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _RayAgostini »

Will Schryver has been unfairly demonised on the Internet. I'll stand up for him, because I believe those who know him least, are his most vocal critics. You, Scratch, and some others, in my view, have very unfairly demonised Will, or what you call "intimidation" (in reference to me), or "shutting up" "tactics".

I really can't, anymore, take seriously anything you write, because you have one hell of a loaded agenda, and it's as obvious as the sun at noonday.

You "ex-Mormons" so delight in "free speech", yet you go to any extent to destroy the reputations of Mormons, for one covert reason only - to "shut them up once and for all", by character assassination.

The irony just weeps. You "don't believe in censorship", yet you seek to enforce it by character assassination.
_RayAgostini

Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _RayAgostini »

As for Ms. Jack's now popular condemnations of Will Schryver, I think she should have taken a closer look at ex-Mormon misogyny, and how the most vile comments about women, and "women's parts", have in fact come from ex-Mormons.
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _harmony »

RayAgostini wrote:As for Ms. Jack's now popular condemnations of Will Schryver, I think she should have taken a closer look at ex-Mormon misogyny, and how the most vile comments about women, and "women's parts", have in fact come from ex-Mormons.


One target at a time, Ray.
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_EAllusion
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _EAllusion »

Groundhog day is one of a handful of my favorite films. It's generally under-appreciated. That Goldberg article DCP links on it was terrible, though.

Angela Lansbury is an awfully odd actress to pick an irrational hatred of. Hugh Grant often plays a posh, slighly nebbish character that can make him annoying. I guess DiCaprio had that whole heartthrob thing years ago, but that feels dated and counterbalanced by the fact that he's an incredible actor. But whatever. Angela Lansbury though? What the hell is that?

Scratch -

It's very satisfying to see Lansbury's character killed in that film. It's because she plays a vicious monster on the cusp of victory. Her character really is a criticism of predecessors of people DCP is an unabashed fan of, so that struck me as an odd thing to highlight, but apparently it thrills him a bit to see Landsbury gunned down regardless.
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _MsJack »

RayAgostini wrote:As for Ms. Jack's now popular condemnations of Will Schryver, I think she should have taken a closer look at ex-Mormon misogyny, and how the most vile comments about women, and "women's parts", have in fact come from ex-Mormons.

I think I addressed this line of argument pretty clearly in the OP of my post, Ray.

Yes, ex-Mormons sometimes say vile things about women. However, I'm not familiar with any ex-Mormons who are saying vile things about women all the while serving as speakers at conventions (bolstered by glowing promotions in The Salt Lake Tribue) and looking to publish peer-reviewed articles on Mormon studies. If you know of one, please point me to him (or her) and I'll consider addressing it. Main Street Plaza has been asking me to guest blog for them for a while, so that would give me a good platform for getting it out to the ex-Mormon community.

Furthermore, ex-Mormons aren't necessarily bound by any kind of a religious code which calls for good behavior towards others. Mormons are. Ex-Mormons who say misogynist things to women are definitely jerks, but Mormons who say misogynist things are both hypocrites and jerks.

It sounds like you're not satisfied with how I handled my Schryver thread, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I consider you a friend and I welcome your feedback on what I could have done better.
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_Yoda

Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _Yoda »

MsJack wrote:
RayAgostini wrote:As for Ms. Jack's now popular condemnations of Will Schryver, I think she should have taken a closer look at ex-Mormon misogyny, and how the most vile comments about women, and "women's parts", have in fact come from ex-Mormons.

I think I addressed this line of argument pretty clearly in the OP of my post, Ray.

Yes, ex-Mormons sometimes say vile things about women. However, I'm not familiar with any ex-Mormons who are saying vile things about women all the while serving as speakers at conventions (bolstered by glowing promotions in The Salt Lake Tribue) and looking to publish peer-reviewed articles on Mormon studies. If you know of one, please point me to him (or her) and I'll consider addressing it. Main Street Plaza has been asking me to guest blog for them for a while, so that would give me a good platform for getting it out to the ex-Mormon community.

Furthermore, ex-Mormons aren't necessarily bound by any kind of a religious code which calls for good behavior towards others. Mormons are. Ex-Mormons who say misogynist things to women are definitely jerks, but Mormons who say misogynist things are both hypocrites and jerks.

It sounds like you're not satisfied with how I handled my Schryver thread, and I'm genuinely sorry to hear that. I consider you a friend and I welcome your feedback on what I could have done better.

I am standing with Ms. Jack on this one. She is one of the most even-handed posters I know.

Having been a victim of Will's misogynistic comments, I think that Ms. Jack handled things very professionally and appropriately.

Please understand, I don't hate Will in any way. As a matter of fact, I believe that Will and I have actually maintained a "truce", of sorts. My family even fasted for his family when his little girl was in the hospital.

However, I do believe that his treatment of Ms. Jack and others here were not only misognistic, but grossly unprofessional, considering that he was becoming a more public figure in the world of apologetics.
_Doctor Scratch
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Re: On Watching Angela Lansbury Die

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

EAllusion wrote:Groundhog day is one of a handful of my favorite films. It's generally under-appreciated. That Goldberg article DCP links on it was terrible, though.

Angela Lansbury is an awfully odd actress to pick an irrational hatred of. Hugh Grant often plays a posh, slighly nebbish character that can make him annoying. I guess DiCaprio had that hole heartthrob thing years ago, but that feels dated and counterbalanced by the fact that he's an incredible actor. But whatever. Angela Lansbury though? What the hell is that?

Scratch -

It's very satisfying to see Lansbury's character killed in that film. It's because she plays a vicious monster on the cusp of victory. Her character really is a criticism of predecessors of people DCP is an unabashed fan of, so that struck me as an odd thing to highlight, but apparently it thrills him a bit to see Landsbury gunned down regardless.


I can get someone liking the fact that the villain in the film is killed off, but like you say, EA, the rather sadistic fixation on Lansbury is just strange. (Also, I agree that Groundhog Day is pretty great.)
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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