Thews, you and Albion appear to have been brainwashed by anti Mormon propaganda.

I suggest you check out FAIR about your claims! Your arguments are also so shallow!

1) Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using occult seer stones he owned before the supposed angels appeared to him through a stove-pipe hat. The first seer stone was found by looking through the green stone of a necromancer (Sally Chase).

2) The "first" vision has so many versions you must accept the version you're told to accept while rejecting the previous versions.

3) The Book of Abraham is an absolute farce and has nothing to do with the pagan documents the LDS church hides from you... nothing.

4) Polygamy is a requirement in the Joseph Smith version of heaven and anyone (according to the D&C) who rejects it will be damned.

5) LDS doctrine is racist and there is no doubt about that. While they will tell you that "dark" doesn't mean skin color, if you accept that then why were the rules changed in 1978? It does mean skin color... wake up.

6) The Kinderhook plates (a known hoax) were translated by Joseph Smith... how do you rationalize this?

Of course, anyone who has been commanded to practice polygamy and doesn't would be damned, however, it was only a small percentage who were allowed to practice it!

"From [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle, no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory." - William Clayton, Historical Record, Vol. 6, pp. 225-227

Do you think that Joseph would teach all the rest that they were damned?!?

The rest of your arguments are shallow also; just check out FAIR!

Check out About.com Latter Day Saints. Anyone who knows much at all about LDS history knows that very few recommends were given out for plural marriages! The ages of Joseph Smith's wives are revealed by apostates for their shock value since young women of those ages were considered as very marriageable in those days. Yea, that's right; "without obedience to that principle"! All who are worthy will one day get the chance to obey that principle, however, God does not hold it against someone if he is not commanded or allowed to practice it! Think! Would God hold it against someone if they died before that principle was restored?! Of course not! Why do you think the church has ordinances for the dead?! There is so much you don't understand, not only about the history of the church, but its doctrines also!!!

The exclamation mark, exclamation point, bang, or dembanger is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or high volume (shouting), and often marks the end of a sentence. Example: “Watch out!” The character is encoded in Unicode as U+0021 ! exclamation point (HTML: !). This punctuation mark is called, in the newspaper world, "a screamer, a gasper, [or] a startler"

Yes, they were "strong feelings" since I know what I stated was absolutely true!

You are ignorant Thews. Nothing Christian about Mormon doctrine?!? How about these:

Primitive Christian church: LDS church:

baptism by immersion by the proper authority same

laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy ghost same

baptism for the dead same

laying on of hands to bestow priesthood authority same

a prophet and first presidency to guide the church same

a quorum of twelve apostles same

quorums of seventy same

revelation to guide the church same

new scripture same

law of consecration established same

temple service same

missionary work worldwide same

etc., etc., etc.,

Albion, in case you haven't noticed, I have used much more than FAIR to demonstrate my points, including many non Mormon references.

Thews, I can fully understand your desire to demonstrate to gdemetz the error of his position using FAIR , his foundational support, but it is a "cheap little site" after all in the scheme of things. Essentially Mormonism rests entirely on the reliability of its founder Joseph Smith before anything else and that is exactly where Mormons have to place their trust for any eternal potential....and that's a pretty scary place to be, I think.

Mormonism

Thews, I shot you down on baptism for the dead, and you are back again already? You and Albion make a good pair of anti's! You guys try to get out of that one, and then I will attempt to explain another one for you. The problem is that you guys try to simplify things which are not simple, and I have to go back and explain basic things as if I were teaching middle school!

You didn't address my points. You say that baptism for the dead is ridiculous. I say that this is just another evidence of your ignorance. I refer you to the world famous "The Interpreters Bible" (non Mormon), and I will write their quote here so you won't even have to look it up!

1 Corinthians 15:29: "Baptism for the dead, that rapture of the cosmos. Paul turns to an interesting item of church practice in Corinth, and probably elsewhere too, and uses it to reinforce his main point..."

Baptism for the dead was abolished by the Catholic church in 250 AD, but despite this the practiced continued among true Christians which led to the council of Carthage to forbid any further practice in 397 AD (6th canon)!

What is baptism for the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29?

by Matt Slick

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).

Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), in particular, has claimed that this verse supports their view of baptism for the dead. In their practice, individuals go to their local Mormon temple, dress appropriately for a baptism, representatively adopt the name of a person who has died, and then the Mormon is baptized in water for that deceased person. This way, the dead person has fulfilled the requirements of salvation in the afterworld and can enjoy further spiritual benefits in the spiritual realm.

But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.2

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?

However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look.

Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them."

The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED.

I -- first person singular
you (singular) -- second person singular
he/she/it -- third person singular
we -- first person plural
you (plural) -- second person plural
they -- third person plural

It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized."

I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!