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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:39 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Thews, you and Albion appear to have been brainwashed by anti Mormon propaganda.

Are all of your counter arguments based on the "I'm rubber and you're glue" inversion tactic? I use facts and post data that can be referenced. You post nothing but a non-specific opinion followed by another incorrect use of an exclamation point in order to imply you've actually made a point, when you haven't even stated what point you disagree with.

gdemetz wrote:
I suggest you check out FAIR about your claims! Your arguments are also so shallow!

You haven't even acknowledged my claims. The six points I presented can be validated by data from Fair. If you believe you can argue with data against anything I've posed, please do, but I know how people like you work; here's how your brain works:

1) Believe everything you're told to believe without questioning it or investigating the data, or lack of data to support the claim.
2) When presented with factual data you can't rationalize, find a supposed parallel fact that negates it... in the LDS world, two false things equal something.
3) After claiming things that are factually true are not and you're painted in a corner, instead of just admitting the truth, run away from the argument claiming it's anti, when all it is, is the truth that's kept from you.


For reference... please tell me one thing that incorrect (note you already failed on #5 and just ran away from the data proving you wrong on #4).
Quote:
1) Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon using occult seer stones he owned before the supposed angels appeared to him through a stove-pipe hat. The first seer stone was found by looking through the green stone of a necromancer (Sally Chase).

2) The "first" vision has so many versions you must accept the version you're told to accept while rejecting the previous versions.

3) The Book of Abraham is an absolute farce and has nothing to do with the pagan documents the LDS church hides from you... nothing.

4) Polygamy is a requirement in the Joseph Smith version of heaven and anyone (according to the D&C) who rejects it will be damned.

5) LDS doctrine is racist and there is no doubt about that. While they will tell you that "dark" doesn't mean skin color, if you accept that then why were the rules changed in 1978? It does mean skin color... wake up.

6) The Kinderhook plates (a known hoax) were translated by Joseph Smith... how do you rationalize this?


gdemetz wrote:
Of course, anyone who has been commanded to practice polygamy and doesn't would be damned, however, it was only a small percentage who were allowed to practice it!

What? Where did you get "small percentage" in the above? Care to use data and post its source? Here... I'll show you how to make a factual point using factual information:

http://www.mormonwiki.org/Polygamy
Quote:
"From [Joseph Smith] I learned that the doctrine of plural and celestial marriage is the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on the earth, and that without obedience to that principle, no man can ever attain to the fulness of exaltation in celestial glory." - William Clayton, Historical Record, Vol. 6, pp. 225-227


gdemetz wrote:
Do you think that Joseph would teach all the rest that they were damned?!?

Joseph Smith "taught" what he needed to in order to get what he wanted, which was young girls. If you know anything about the Sarah Ann Whitney letter it's all there in black and white. You can choose to believe the hypothetical stories you're told to believe, or instead read the words he wrote, which explicitly convey that the only condition it was not safe for Sarah's parents to bring her over was if his wife Emma was there... he states it twice.
For reference: http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/16-Sa ... hitney.htm

gdemetz wrote:
The rest of your arguments are shallow also; just check out FAIR!

Again you make no point but to bucketize the facts as "shallow" without even stating what you're talking about. Be specific... what data have I posted that's incorrect? What data have you posted... nothing, because you have nothing but fodder to rely on as the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Check out About.com Latter Day Saints. Anyone who knows much at all about LDS history knows that very few recommends were given out for plural marriages! The ages of Joseph Smith's wives are revealed by apostates for their shock value since young women of those ages were considered as very marriageable in those days. Yea, that's right; "without obedience to that principle"! All who are worthy will one day get the chance to obey that principle, however, God does not hold it against someone if he is not commanded or allowed to practice it! Think! Would God hold it against someone if they died before that principle was restored?! Of course not! Why do you think the church has ordinances for the dead?! There is so much you don't understand, not only about the history of the church, but its doctrines also!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:00 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check out About.com Latter Day Saints. Anyone who knows much at all about LDS history knows that very few recommends were given out for plural marriages! The ages of Joseph Smith's wives are revealed by apostates for their shock value since young women of those ages were considered as very marriageable in those days. Yea, that's right; "without obedience to that principle"! All who are worthy will one day get the chance to obey that principle, however, God does not hold it against someone if he is not commanded or allowed to practice it! Think! Would God hold it against someone if they died before that principle was restored?! Of course not! Why do you think the church has ordinances for the dead?! There is so much you don't understand, not only about the history of the church, but its doctrines also!!!

Check the above for more of the same drivel on where lemmings are supposed to go to find things to believe in. Once again gdemetz, you have addressed nothing, said nothing, and are even too ignorant to actually read what FairMormon has to say as you use them as your supposed source, as they will solidify everything you choose to ignore. And one more thing FYI...

Quote:
The exclamation mark, exclamation point, bang, or dembanger is a punctuation mark usually used after an interjection or exclamation to indicate strong feelings or high volume (shouting), and often marks the end of a sentence. Example: “Watch out!” The character is encoded in Unicode as U+0021 ! exclamation point (HTML: !). This punctuation mark is called, in the newspaper world, "a screamer, a gasper, [or] a startler"


When everything you say has this fake emphasis on it, well, it's like everything you say, which is nothing but parrot-speak.

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 9:39 pm 
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Yes, they were "strong feelings" since I know what I stated was absolutely true!


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:24 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, they were "strong feelings" since I know what I stated was absolutely true!

You didn't state anything. You didn't respond to any of the data with anything other than generalized opinion, making sure to avoid being specific. The thing is gdemetz, the six things I posted are facts... it's not my opinion. Once again, if you care to actually read Fair's site, once you weed through the distortion on how you're supposed to interpret the facts, the facts remain. Regarding the OP, there's absolutely nothing "Christian" about Mormon doctrine... it's Mormon. The reason you can't respond to any of the facts I've stated while you bask in ignorance, is because you aren't capable of critical thought. Your "strong feelings" are a byproduct of brainwashing, which is why you can't accept factual information. Care to prove me wrong? Be specific... pick one thing on the list you believe is not a fact, and I'll show you it is a fact (using Fair if I can).

(insert specific answer here)

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:21 pm 
God

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You are ignorant Thews. Nothing Christian about Mormon doctrine?!? How about these:

Primitive Christian church: LDS church:

baptism by immersion by the proper authority same

laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy ghost same

baptism for the dead same

laying on of hands to bestow priesthood authority same

a prophet and first presidency to guide the church same

a quorum of twelve apostles same

quorums of seventy same

revelation to guide the church same

new scripture same

law of consecration established same

temple service same

missionary work worldwide same

etc., etc., etc.,


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 5:27 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You are ignorant Thews. Nothing Christian about Mormon doctrine?!? How about these:

Primitive Christian church: LDS church:

baptism by immersion by the proper authority same

laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy ghost same

baptism for the dead same

laying on of hands to bestow priesthood authority same

a prophet and first presidency to guide the church same

a quorum of twelve apostles same

quorums of seventy same

revelation to guide the church same

new scripture same

law of consecration established same

temple service same

missionary work worldwide same

etc., etc., etc.,

I keep asking you to address the data, and you continue to spew this tired and endless garbage with reckless abandon as I shoot it down. Presented with the facts, you then run away and do the same thing. I made 6 very specific points which you claimed were not true. I'm asking for a CFR, as you've already fallen on your face regarding racism and polygamy. Now, you use your limited intellect to draw parallel lines between Christianity and Mormonism using "missionary work worldwide" as a supposed parallel? Really? What part of Christians rejecting Joseph Smith as a false prophet of God don't you understand? As you randomly toss out "a prophet and first presidency to guide the church" you fail to acknowledge Christians do follow living men to "guide" them with doctrine changes. Does any random prophet count? Baptism for the dead is a Mormon ritual. It boggles the mind how ridiculous this concept is. What about the young Indian child killed by a bear hundreds of years ago with no record of ever being born? Is this child destined to walk about in the Mormon God's limbo because you don't have a name to dead dunk? The Mormon God is indeed a evil demon if this poor child is damned because they can't be dead dunked by a living human. Then you toss out "revelation to guide the church" and "new scripture" to make your point Mormonism mirrors Christianity? Really? Just how much do you know about Christianity? You are completely wrong in your ridiculous attempts at diverting the questions asked. I asked for a CFR to what you claimed was not true... be specific and use some data I can reference. Telling me to use Fair and then failing to use it yourself exemplifies your ignorance.

If you want to take one thing from Christian doctrine gdemetz, it's that all of the doctrine of Joseph Smith is from a false prophet of God. This includes Joseph Smith's revised bible, making every single shred of Mormon doctrine exclusive to the LDS faith. How you can logically argue that Jesus Christ lives with God on the planet Kolob where a secret handshake is required to gain entry and it's "Christian" is absolutely staggering. Are you ashamed of being LDS? Is this why you need to pass the LDS faith off as Christian?

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:47 am 
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You didn't address my points. You say that baptism for the dead is ridiculous. I say that this is just another evidence of your ignorance. I refer you to the world famous "The Interpreters Bible" (non Mormon), and I will write their quote here so you won't even have to look it up!

1 Corinthians 15:29: "Baptism for the dead, that rapture of the cosmos. Paul turns to an interesting item of church practice in Corinth, and probably elsewhere too, and uses it to reinforce his main point..."

Baptism for the dead was abolished by the Catholic church in 250 AD, but despite this the practiced continued among true Christians which led to the council of Carthage to forbid any further practice in 397 AD (6th canon)!


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 6:28 am 
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Thews, I can fully understand your desire to demonstrate to gdemetz the error of his position using FAIR , his foundational support, but it is a "cheap little site" after all in the scheme of things. Essentially Mormonism rests entirely on the reliability of its founder Joseph Smith before anything else and that is exactly where Mormons have to place their trust for any eternal potential....and that's a pretty scary place to be, I think.


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2012 10:21 pm 
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Albion, in case you haven't noticed, I have used much more than FAIR to demonstrate my points, including many non Mormon references.


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:24 am 
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gdemetz, I just wanted to remind you that FAIR is just "a cheap little source".


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:39 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Albion, in case you haven't noticed, I have used much more than FAIR to demonstrate my points, including many non Mormon references.

gdemetz, you haven't addressed any data, let alone using Fair as a source to back up your claim that answers can be found there. I'm actually agreeing with you for the most part, as FairMormon does acknowledge most of the facts you blindly claim are "ridiculous" yet fail to define. You haven't even researched your baseless arguments on Fair or you wouldn't make them. Do you have a point to make? Do you have something specific you claim I posted that is not true? If so, what exactly are you claiming I've posted is not true? You can either back up what you say, or divert again by relying on contradicting yourself with mindless drivel. Which one will it be gdemetz? Please be very specific in what you claim is not true... (insert answer here).

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:45 am 
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Albion wrote:
Thews, I can fully understand your desire to demonstrate to gdemetz the error of his position using FAIR , his foundational support, but it is a "cheap little site" after all in the scheme of things. Essentially Mormonism rests entirely on the reliability of its founder Joseph Smith before anything else and that is exactly where Mormons have to place their trust for any eternal potential....and that's a pretty scary place to be, I think.

I think you underestimate FairMormon. They do acknowledge most of the facts, and then use distortion in order to sway the reader to decipher the data using arguments from ignorance/silence to imply the truth is not what it seems. The reason I like to use Fair, is that it's a site LDS people are "allowed" to go to. Mormonthink.com is a much more accurate site, but it's labeled "anti" to scare away the lemmings. In this discussion, gdemetz uses Fair as the supposed source for the answer, but fails to define the question. This is a blind lemming approach, which is to be as vague as possible in order to wear down the opposing viewpoint and make it seem "ridiculous" as gdemetz claims my points are. If gdemetz responds again, look for yet another non-specific ploy at distortion, without any sort of CFR using Fair's data. When facts aren't available to back up what you say, one must resort to diversionary tactics placing their feelings as the supporting evidence.

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:20 pm 
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Thews, I shot you down on baptism for the dead, and you are back again already? You and Albion make a good pair of anti's! You guys try to get out of that one, and then I will attempt to explain another one for you. The problem is that you guys try to simplify things which are not simple, and I have to go back and explain basic things as if I were teaching middle school!


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 2:44 am 
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Location: Over at the Frankenstein place
Hades wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Now I would like to ask a question. What man made religion could come up with such glorious truths?!?


Mormonism


Image
Thread over.

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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:38 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Thews, I shot you down on baptism for the dead, and you are back again already? You and Albion make a good pair of anti's! You guys try to get out of that one, and then I will attempt to explain another one for you. The problem is that you guys try to simplify things which are not simple, and I have to go back and explain basic things as if I were teaching middle school!

You aren't intelligent enough to have a conversation with gdemetz. As I've said many times, you claimed the six points I made were ridiculous and never said why. I asked for a CFR using the site you claimed I could find the answer (FairMormon). If you choose to have a conversation without changing it once you've painted yourself in a corner, then please address the topic.

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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:01 am 
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For the sake of clarity, gdemetz, what exactly am I suposed to "get out of"? Where have you jumped to now?


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 12:58 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
You didn't address my points. You say that baptism for the dead is ridiculous. I say that this is just another evidence of your ignorance. I refer you to the world famous "The Interpreters Bible" (non Mormon), and I will write their quote here so you won't even have to look it up!

1 Corinthians 15:29: "Baptism for the dead, that rapture of the cosmos. Paul turns to an interesting item of church practice in Corinth, and probably elsewhere too, and uses it to reinforce his main point..."

Baptism for the dead was abolished by the Catholic church in 250 AD, but despite this the practiced continued among true Christians which led to the council of Carthage to forbid any further practice in 397 AD (6th canon)!

Just in case you're feeling full of yourself for the latest diversion here, you haven't shot anything down, nor have you addressed the topic. Just for your info on the KoolAid you're drinking when you claim Christians dead-dunk:

http://carm.org/baptism-for-the-dead-in ... ians-15-29
Quote:
What is baptism for the dead mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:29?

by Matt Slick

"Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?" (1 Cor. 15:29, NASB).

Numerous explanations have been offered for this verse, ranging from the inane to the sophisticated. Mormonism (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), in particular, has claimed that this verse supports their view of baptism for the dead. In their practice, individuals go to their local Mormon temple, dress appropriately for a baptism, representatively adopt the name of a person who has died, and then the Mormon is baptized in water for that deceased person. This way, the dead person has fulfilled the requirements of salvation in the afterworld and can enjoy further spiritual benefits in the spiritual realm.

But, the Mormons are incorrect. They have usurped this verse and taken it out of context. So, let's examine 1 Cor. 15 briefly so we can see what Paul is talking about when he mentions baptism for the dead.

In verses 1-19, the fact of Christ's resurrection is detailed by Paul. Beginning in verse 20 and going through verse 23, Paul speaks about the order of the resurrection. Christ was the first one raised - in a glorified body - and next will be those who are His at His return. Verses 24 - 29 then mention Christ's reign and the abolition of death. This is when this controversial verse occurs: "Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?"

Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.1 The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Cor. 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.2

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were.

Paul's point was simple. The resurrection is a reality. It is going to happen when Jesus returns. Even the pagans believe in the resurrection, otherwise, why would they baptize for the dead?

However, some are not convinced by this argument and state that the word "they" is not in the Greek and, therefore, Paul is not speaking about the pagans. Let's take a look.

Literally, the verse is translated as "Since what will do the being immersed on behalf of the dead if wholly dead not are raised why also are they immersed on behalf of them."

The issue here is the word, "baptizontai" -- "they are baptized." It is the present, passive, indicative, 3rd person, plural. In other words, it is THEY ARE BEING BAPTIZED or, THEY ARE BAPTIZED.

I -- first person singular
you (singular) -- second person singular
he/she/it -- third person singular
we -- first person plural
you (plural) -- second person plural
they -- third person plural

It is the latter form, the third person plural (they) in which the verb "baptizo" is found. Therefore, the best translation is "THEY are baptized."

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2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 10:27 pm 
God

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I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!


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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:45 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I glad you mentioned 2 Timothy! Those verses are referring to you guys! As I said before, you guys can always come up with some little cheap anti Mormon site which wants to change history. However, what helped my conversion were the real scholarly sites! I would go to the university library and research real factual history and teachings, etc. The interpreters Bible has 900 scholars who know these things! I will also give you another real scholarly source, "A Companion to the Bible."

"At Corinth, certain CHRISTIANS had themselves baptized substitutionally for some of the dead who had not had the opportunity of hearing the gospel, in the desire to place them too within the benefit of Christ's death. This baptism had the aim of giviing these dead a chance of rising again for salvation."

In other words, a chance to be born of the water, etc. which is a requisite for salvation! My gosh man! There are many records of baptisms for the dead being performed by Christians for centuries, and the apostate council of Carthage tries to eliminate it as late as 397 AD with it's 6th canon which forbade any further practice! You apostates try to change doctrine, and even change history!!!

But wait! Here is another site which agrees with you: "Papa Joes born again site" - learn the truth about those ole Mormons! How the had all them there wives, and haw they baptized all them dead people!


If it is a prerequisite for salvation what happens to those aboriginal babies in the Amazon or the Australian outback who die without any record of their existence?

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 Post subject: Re: The Light of Christ
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:18 am 
God

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Just for fun: "And when he had said these words, the Spirit of the Lord was upon him, and he said, Helam, I baptize thee, having authority from Almigfhty God, as a testimony that ye have entered into a covenant to serve him UNTIL YOU ARE DEAD, as to the mortal body." Book of Mormon, Mosiah 18;13. The Book of Mormon makes no mention of baptism for the dead but it is claimed it is the "fullness of the gospel".


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