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 Post subject: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:36 am 
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About a week ago my wife (who is a TBM) and I were discussing the Mormonism 101 FAQ that the church put out. To my surprise we both agreed that a couple of the answers were misleading at best, outright lies at worst. I also put forward my opinion that what is going on here may be a change in doctrine. At the end of the conversation my wife stated that she wondered what her bishop thought of the matter. I asked her if she wanted me to email him to get an opinion on the matter, she told me she did, and I emailed him the next day.

I don't have permission to share his email reply, so I'm not going to. However, there's no real need, it's the response you would expect from a TBM. In his opinion it was neither misleading, nor a change in doctrine. It was just written so that everyone could understand it at their level, milk before meat and all that stuff. Like most Mormons, he doesn't realize that he just described a textbook case of misleading people. Mormons have an uncanny ability to apply one set of rules to themselves and another set of rules to everyone else.

At the end he bore his testimony. The testimony was pretty awkward, it's almost like he said it out loud and then transcribed the entire thing verbatim, complete with "In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

The more I thought about that testimony, the more offended I got. As a Christian, I consider it downright blasphemous to finish up a defense of misleading people by talking about how much you know that Jesus set the LDS church in motion, thus justifying misleading people in the name of Jesus and his church. If this is not a violation of the "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain," I don't know what is. But even if you are not a Christian, I would think it's still offensive to justify misleading people on the basis of whatever higher principles you happen to hold dear (excepting extreme cases like lying to the Nazis about the Jews in your attic).

But the part that offended me most was I left the LDS church because I couldn't lie or deceive people. I realized I could no longer answer the temple recommend questions honestly, and I wasn't going to lie to preserve my participation in the LDS church. But here the person who would have interviewed me, was feeling quite justified in misleading people for the cause. I was really pissed and offended that I get crapped on for trying to do the right thing, while the "judge in Israel" justifies misleading people, all for the good of the LDS church and in the name of Jesus.

While I was still pissed and offended over the whole thing, I remembered something an LDS church leader told me. I don't remember who, it was probably someone at the MTC. They said that you should always bear your testimony because it can't offend anyone and is always a positive thing to do. Wrong! Sharing your testimony can be really offensive.

Edited: Changed "share the email" to "share his email reply" in the second paragraph.


Last edited by Aristotle Smith on Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:41 am 
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The thing is... he doesn't realize that he's deceiving anyone. While virtually everyone who is not a TBM would understand that "milk before meat" is simply bait and switch, there are a lot of very sincere people who don't see it as such, let alone understand the ramifications.

So... I don't think he would understand why his testimony offends you. It's simply not within his worldview.

Maybe if you had a one on one discussion over an extended period of time, complete with assorted examples, he might get it... but not if conference had just occurred (thus reinforcing the whole concept).

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:43 am 
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I hope you reply to the Bishop's e mail with a transcript of your OP.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:25 am 
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Of course, we all know that people "choose to be offended" and it is always our own fault. Everything is always our own fault.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:20 am 
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Aristotle Smith wrote:

I don't have permission to share the email, so I'm not going to. However, there's no real need, it's the response you would expect from a TBM. In his opinion it was neither misleading, nor a change in doctrine. It was just written so that everyone could understand it at their level, milk before meat and all that stuff. Like most Mormons, he doesn't realize that he just described a textbook case of misleading people. Mormons have an uncanny ability to apply one set of rules to themselves and another set of rules to everyone else.



I guess this is how he may deal with the Cog Dis this causes. You see it here. BC Space and Droopy both took this tact when I posted a thread on how the Church is watering down its doctrine. To say we believe in becoming gods only like the bible teaches-sharing the divine nature-it not even milk before meat. It is either a change or deception. Thing is anyone with a computer can check on these things. So why does the Church do this?

Quote:
At the end he bore his testimony. The testimony was pretty awkward, it's almost like he said it out loud and then transcribed the entire thing verbatim, complete with "In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen."

The more I thought about that testimony, the more offended I got. As a Christian, I consider it downright blasphemous to finish up a defense of misleading people by talking about how much you know that Jesus set the LDS church in motion, thus justifying misleading people in the name of Jesus and his church. If this is not a violation of the "Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain," I don't know what is. But even if you are not a Christian, I would think it's still offensive to justify misleading people on the basis of whatever higher principles you happen to hold dear (excepting extreme cases like lying to the Nazis about the Jews in your attic).


I was always told as a missionary not to argue but just bear your testimony because nobody can argue with your testimony.

Quote:
But the part that offended me most was I left the LDS church because I couldn't lie or deceive people. I realized I could no longer answer the temple recommend questions honestly, and I wasn't going to lie to preserve my participation in the LDS church. But here the person who would have interviewed me, was feeling quite justified in misleading people for the cause. I was really pissed and offended that I get crapped on for trying to do the right thing, while the "judge in Israel" justifies misleading people, all for the good of the LDS church and in the name of Jesus.


This is a very good point and one I struggle with. As NOMer I assuage my conscience I guess with telling myself I am as honest with the Church as they have been with me, investigators and the general public. How long I can do so I do not know. I do feel hypocritical at time.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:38 pm 
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After reading most of them, there's yet to be anything about 101 that is misleading or false or denotes a change in doctrine.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:48 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
After reading most of them, there's yet to be anything about 101 that is misleading or false or denotes a change in doctrine.


So you won't get your own planets? Do you feel disappointed?

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:51 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
After reading most of them, there's yet to be anything about 101 that is misleading or false or denotes a change in doctrine.


Yes the typical dodge and dance. BC do Mormons believe that becoming gods simply means to participate in the divine nature of God? Is there anything more beyond that or is that it as the FAQ states?


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:50 pm 
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Aristotle Smith wrote:
blah blah blah.... Mormons lie.....


Why don't you list your so-called "lies" and misrepresentations, and I will show you that YOU are the liar.

Of course your TBM wife likely thinks the same as you, she's likely not an expert in mormonism, thus she is being led by your SNAKE charm, which doesn't tell the whole truth of an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:53 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
bcspace wrote:
After reading most of them, there's yet to be anything about 101 that is misleading or false or denotes a change in doctrine.


So you won't get your own planets? Do you feel disappointed?


There is no "doctrine" saying we will get our own planets.....

There are lot's of ideas, natural assumptions, etc. in the teachings of a religion that aren't directly "doctrine".

Thus, it is false to say we will get our own planets, and then say it's a DOCTRINE (like anti-mormons do). We have no idea what we will get. But the scripture is clear that we will "inherit all the father hath", etc. etc., and thus a natural assumption and thought within mormonism is that we will get our own planets. This is why the idea can sometimes be found, such as with some LDS manuals.

A thought, an idea, assumptions and speculations sometimes taught doesn't and never has made "doctrine".
Anti-mormons and even some Mormons need to learn the difference.


Last edited by ldsfaqs on Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:53 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Aristotle Smith wrote:
blah blah blah.... Mormons lie.....


Why don't you list your so-called "lies" and misrepresentations, and I will show you that YOU are the liar.

Of course your TBM wife likely thinks the same as you, she's likely not an expert in mormonism, thus she is being led by your SNAKE charm, which doesn't tell the whole truth of an issue.



http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/mormonism-101#C14


Quote:
Do Latter-day Saints believe that they will “get their own planet”?

No. This idea is not taught in Latter-day Saint scripture, nor is it a doctrine of the Church. This misunderstanding stems from speculative comments unreflective of scriptural doctrine. Mormons believe that we are all sons and daughters of God and that all of us have the potential to grow during and after this life to become like our Heavenly Father (see Romans 8:16-17). The Church does not and has never purported to fully understand the specifics of Christ’s statement that “in my Father’s house are many mansions” (John 14:2).

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:55 pm 
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See above....

As I've always said..... People who leave the Church do so because of "ignorance" of their religion.
Like this example.... Anti-mormons believe this idea is actually doctrine, when it NEVER has been.

You all need to stop blaming mormonism for YOUR OWN ignorance and wicked souls.


Last edited by ldsfaqs on Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:56 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
[

There is no "doctrine" saying we will get our own planets.....

There are lot's of ideas, natural assumptions, etc. in the teachings of a religion that aren't directly "doctrine".

Thus, it is false to say we will get our own planets. We have no idea what we will get. But the scripture is clear that we will "inherit all the father hath", etc. etc., and thus a natural assumption and thought within mormonism is that we will get our own planets.

A thought and idea sometimes taught however doesn't make "doctrine".
Anti-mormons and even some Mormons need to learn the difference.


You should alert the first presidency that false doctrine is being taught on the church website and in manuals:

http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?h ... 94610aRCRD

“Each one of you has it within the realm of his possibility to develop a kingdom over which you will preside as its king and god. You will need to develop yourself and grow in ability and power and worthiness, to govern such a world with all of its people. You are sent to this earth not merely to have a good time or to satisfy urges or passions or desires. You are sent to this earth, not to ride merry-go-rounds, airplanes, automobiles, and have what the world calls ‘fun.’"

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:00 pm 
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Sad you people are.....

I didn't say it was "false doctrine"..... I said it's not a "doctrine".
Learn the difference. It's an assumption, an idea within mormonism, that is yes has been taught.

But maybe you have forgotten. There are all kinds of ideas and teachings in mormonism, in manuals that aren't and never have been "doctrine".

Manuals teach philosphy, math, etc. etc..... That doesn't make them doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:11 pm 
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ldsfaqs and bcspace are right. It is NOT a "true" doctrine of the Church. However, they are mistaken in stating it wasn't taught like it was doctrine of the Church in the past. There are plenty of former prophets of the Church that have speculated along the lines and said as much that man can be God and rule their own worlds. Those prophets that taught this were WRONG as are the many members that have taught it and believed it.

It is a simple fact that Man is not God and can never be God. And to aspire to as much is blasphemy and false doctrine. I would liken such Mormons to being more like Lucifer and his aspirations to be God in the war in heaven. They are seeking things they should not and committing a great sin.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:14 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Sad you people are.....

I didn't say it was "false doctrine"..... I said it's not a "doctrine".
Learn the difference. It's an assumption, an idea within mormonism, that is yes has been taught.

But maybe you have forgotten. There are all kinds of ideas and teachings in mormonism, in manuals that aren't and never have been "doctrine".

Manuals teach philosphy, math, etc. etc..... That doesn't make them doctrine.


You said: "Thus, it is false to say we will get our own planets."

So it's false doctrine. You're accusing LDS Leadership of priestcraft!

_________________
Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:14 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

So you won't get your own planets? Do you feel disappointed?


There is no "doctrine" saying we will get our own planets.....

There are lot's of ideas, natural assumptions, etc. in the teachings of a religion that aren't directly "doctrine".

Thus, it is false to say we will get our own planets, and then say it's a DOCTRINE (like anti-mormons do). We have no idea what we will get. But the scripture is clear that we will "inherit all the father hath", etc. etc., and thus a natural assumption and thought within mormonism is that we will get our own planets. This is why the idea can sometimes be found, such as with some LDS manuals.

A thought, an idea, assumptions and speculations sometimes taught doesn't and never has made "doctrine".
Anti-mormons and even some Mormons need to learn the difference.[/quote]


Like it or not Mr erroneous FAQs, the LDS Church has taught in official publications that exalted humans will create and populate planets. If you want to be particular perhaps saying we get our very own planet is not accurate. But the idea that to be a god means to do exactly what the other gods before have done, and that is create and people worlds with our spirit off spring has been taught as doctrine.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Read again, I "clarified" my statement.
You posted before I read over my statement and saw the mistype.


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
bcspace wrote:
After reading most of them, there's yet to be anything about 101 that is misleading or false or denotes a change in doctrine.


Yes the typical dodge and dance. BC do Mormons believe that becoming gods simply means to participate in the divine nature of God? Is there anything more beyond that or is that it as the FAQ states?


I have said more then once he is willing to say white is black and black is white.

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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:17 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:

Manuals teach philosphy, math, etc. etc..... That doesn't make them doctrine.


Talk to your fellow apologist BC Space. He says if the church publishes it, it is official doctrine and he has a source to back it up.

SEE BC SPACE! I have been telling you all along that most apologists will not accept manuals as official doctrine. You you please correct your fellow apologist here?


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 Post subject: Re: Offended by a Testimony
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 3:18 pm 
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And Jason....

Not everything taught in manuals or otherwise is "doctrine".
Manuals also contain quotes from people, math, philosophy, etc. etc.

Are you going to claim them "doctrine" also?
Again, you the anti-mormon not actually knowing and understanding mormonism doesn't make it mormonism lying, misrepresenting itself, etc.


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