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 Post subject: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:07 am 
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My young daughter has expressed to me two concerns which keep bugging her:

1. She doesn't think the Church should interfere with gay marriages outside the Church.

2. She says the Church is chauvinistic and that girls as well as boys should be able to hold the priesthood.

I haven't encouraged her or discouraged her when she shares these thoughts. They do seem normal for any 12 year old LDS girl who is naturally idealistic. Given time she may learn to either stifle these thoughts and be sweet and pure in a cookie-cutter fashion or keep her concerns and be a person true to her own innate sense of right and wrong.

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:21 am 
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The world is now a place where equality is one of the most actively persued principles.

In schools and colleges and workplaces around the world adults and children are taught that it is wrong to discriminate because of race, sex, physical ability, religion etc.

Mormonism has actively discriminated against people because of race (it still does).
Mormonism is actively discriminatory with regards to sex.

Any right minded thinking person (of any age) will see the descrapancy between how the world treats people and how Mormonism treats people.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:51 am 
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moksha wrote:
My young daughter has expressed to me two concerns which keep bugging her:

1. She doesn't think the Church should interfere with gay marriages outside the Church.

2. She says the Church is chauvinistic and that girls as well as boys should be able to hold the priesthood.

I haven't encouraged her or discouraged her when she shares these thoughts. They do seem normal for any 12 year old LDS girl who is naturally idealistic. Given time she may learn to either stifle these thoughts and be sweet and pure in a cookie-cutter fashion or keep her concerns and be a person true to her own innate sense of right and wrong.

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.


This is pretty much what I was like at that age, so I'd say you should be highly concerned!

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:59 am 
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moksha wrote:

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.

It has very little to do with justice and fair play since if she is attending school in the united states she is learning to be competitive, efficient, and productive. She is also learning to be individualistic in her attitude. And since she is being educated within the capitalist ideology, she is definitely not learning to be fair. Do you really believe that America is a country of justice and fairplay?

However she may be learning that there is no absolute truth but rather little truths that each individual may process. And it is these individual truths that must be respected as long as no one gets hurt. Thus her concern for same sex marriage.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:02 am 
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jon wrote:
The world is now a place where equality is one of the most actively persued principles.

In schools and colleges and workplaces around the world adults and children are taught that it is wrong to discriminate because of race, sex, physical ability, religion etc.


They are being taught that there is no absolute truth and that metanarratives no longer work. They are learning the 'wisdom' of postmodernity.

In this world of ours, equality is far from the radar. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and the so called middle class is doing what may to survive. No equality need apply.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:29 am 
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why me wrote:
jon wrote:
The world is now a place where equality is one of the most actively persued principles.

In schools and colleges and workplaces around the world adults and children are taught that it is wrong to discriminate because of race, sex, physical ability, religion etc.


They are being taught that there is no absolute truth and that metanarratives no longer work. They are learning the 'wisdom' of postmodernity.

In this world of ours, equality is far from the radar. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer and the so called middle class is doing what may to survive. No equality need apply.


Interestingly the LDS Church instructs its youth not to intermarry with members of the opposite sex who are of a different race, different economic background, different educational background.

In other words it is LDS teaching that:
White's should only marry white's
Poor people should only marry poor people
Super brains should only marry super brains

As for your sorry tale about how you see your environment - I can only say that doesn't match mine.
My Non-Mormon children (and their friends and acquaintences) are far more integrated, tolerant and respectful of the rich variety of fellow humans without regard for race, sexuality, intellect, wealth, religion, disability etc than any Mormon I have ever come across (and I include myself in that).
As a result they are more balanced in their personalities and more of a positive influence in their communities.

I guess it's all about getting out what you put in.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:34 am 
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moksha wrote:
My young daughter has expressed to me two concerns which keep bugging her:

1. She doesn't think the Church should interfere with gay marriages outside the Church.

2. She says the Church is chauvinistic and that girls as well as boys should be able to hold the priesthood.

I haven't encouraged her or discouraged her when she shares these thoughts. They do seem normal for any 12 year old LDS girl who is naturally idealistic. Given time she may learn to either stifle these thoughts and be sweet and pure in a cookie-cutter fashion or keep her concerns and be a person true to her own innate sense of right and wrong.

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.


I just needed to say I have the mind of a twelve year old girl. I feel much the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:42 am 
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stemelbow wrote:
I just needed to say I have the mind of a twelve year old girl. I feel much the same way.

My wife told me I have the face of a twelve year old, and said I should give it back because I'm getting it all wrinkled.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:25 pm 
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Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

Public educational systems outside of LDS-dominated areas usually do. In LDS-dominated areas it they often do not. Depending on where you live, if you want your daughter to be educated with traditional LDS values, it might be best to send her to a LDS private school. That way, she can continue being sweet, and blame her rebellious attitudes on public education.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:42 pm 
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MCB wrote:
Public educational systems outside of LDS-dominated areas usually do. In LDS-dominated areas it they often do not. Depending on where you live, if you want your daughter to be educated with traditional LDS values, it might be best to send her to a LDS private school. That way, she can continue being sweet, and blame her rebellious attitudes on public education.


Really? What about in the southern part of the united states? No LDS domination there. And what about in the midwest? And what is justice and equality in america and how are students learning it in the public schools?

And how are LDS values different from catholic values. Are you in favor of women holding the priesthood in the catholic church?

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:08 pm 
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I agree with God, save one comment. The middle class will be gone in 10 years. Then it will be more obvious to the conservatives that we have indeed always had a class system.


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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:59 pm 
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moksha wrote:
My young daughter has expressed to me two concerns which keep bugging her:

1. She doesn't think the Church should interfere with gay marriages outside the Church.

2. She says the Church is chauvinistic and that girls as well as boys should be able to hold the priesthood.

I haven't encouraged her or discouraged her when she shares these thoughts. They do seem normal for any 12 year old LDS girl who is naturally idealistic. Given time she may learn to either stifle these thoughts and be sweet and pure in a cookie-cutter fashion or keep her concerns and be a person true to her own innate sense of right and wrong.

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.


Darn those universal notions "of justice and fair play":)...as the father or 3 girls under the age of 12, your post made me happy and sad at the same time...My oldest is starting to sense (and question) the inequality prevalent in the LDS church even though she only goes once or twice a month to make her mother happy....I don't see her wanting to attend once she becomes too old to be interested in the bribes her teachers bring each week but she feels guilty not wanting to go because her mother likes to occasionally go...I do love the questions they are starting to come home with though...

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:26 pm 
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schreech wrote:

Darn those universal notions "of justice and fair play":)...as the father or 3 girls under the age of 12, your post made me happy and sad at the same time...My oldest is starting to sense (and question) the inequality prevalent in the LDS church even though she only goes once or twice a month to make her mother happy....I don't see her wanting to attend once she becomes too old to be interested in the bribes her teachers bring each week but she feels guilty not wanting to go because her mother likes to occasionally go...I do love the questions they are starting to come home with though...


And will be out of the LDS church bring her more equality in her life? At the moment, your daughters are learning certain values and principles that many young girls do not learn: Treat your body as a temple of god. Not bad advice for young ladies. Wouldn't you agree? And what about the encouragement to get an education? Not bad advise either.

Or would you prefer your now 12 year old to be having sex at the age of 15 like many teenagers these days? Are these teenagers being taught about equality?

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We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:53 am 
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why me wrote:

Or would you prefer your now 12 year old to be having sex at the age of 15 like many teenagers these days? Are these teenagers being taught about equality?


What is it that makes you think that teenage sex is less prevalent among Mormons than Non - Mormons - what percentage of Non Mormon teenagers have sex and what is the percentage for Mormon teenagers?
Or are you just making stuff up to fit what you believe?

why me wrote:
Are these teenagers being taught about equality?


I think it's a well established fact that teenagers learn more about equality from sources outside the Church than do from within it. Here is an example of the kind of 'equality' the Church teaches it's young women:
Explain that as women, the class members should have two vocations in mind: first, being a homemaker; and second, doing something that will allow them to earn money to support a family if that should become necessary. Many women also find that before they are married or after the children are reared, there is time to be productive in a vocation.
(Young Women Manual 3)

Also from the manual:
“The priesthood is the power and authority of God. It existed with Him in the beginning and will continue to exist throughout all eternity (see D&C 84:17). By it He creates, sustains, governs, redeems, and exalts.''
So young Mormon women are taught that they cannot themselves Create, Sustain, Govern, Redeem or Exalt and that they do not have the power and authority of God. Sound equal?


In comparison:
In 2010, the European Union opened the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE) in Vilnius, Lithuania to promote gender equality and to fight sex discrimination.
www.eige.europa.eu
These are the key items of their strategy :-
1. Equal Economic Independance
2. Equal Pay
3. Equality in Decision Making
4. Dignity, Integrity and an end to gender based violence

Now why me, perhaps you will peruse this organisations website and compare the work that they are doing on equality with that of the Church.
Perhaps you may also review the curriculum currently being taught within schools and colleges in your area about sexual equality and see how that compares with the Church.

The Church follows the world, dragging its feet and sulking like a naughty little 6 year old being forced to go to...well...Church...

Just like it did on racial equality.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:38 pm 
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jon wrote:


In comparison:
In 2010, the European Union opened the European Institute for Gender Equality (EIGE) in Vilnius, Lithuania to promote gender equality and to fight sex discrimination.
http://www.eige.europa.eu
These are the key items of their strategy :-
1. Equal Economic Independance
2. Equal Pay
3. Equality in Decision Making
4. Dignity, Integrity and an end to gender based violence

Now why me, perhaps you will peruse this organisations website and compare the work that they are doing on equality with that of the Church.
Perhaps you may also review the curriculum currently being taught within schools and colleges in your area about sexual equality and see how that compares with the Church.

The Church follows the world, dragging its feet and sulking like a naughty little 6 year old being forced to go to...well...Church...

Just like it did on racial equality.


Yes, the book sounds good as do other books. But practice is rather different. Lithuania is a very patriarchical society. There is no such thing as gender equality anywhere in the world. But it is on the books of some countries. And what about in america where such classes are taught? I still see gross inequality. To have gender equality one must struggle for a socialist feminist vison for society. Then, we have a chance.

http://womenshistory.about.com/od/femin ... inisms.htm

Also, what exactly is gender equality? And who defines it? In capitalism the concept becomes nothing more than mental masturbation. It feels good to write about it...to encourage it...but not very practical because the system discourages equality.

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We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:50 pm 
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why me wrote:
They are being taught that there is no absolute truth and that metanarratives no longer work. They are learning the 'wisdom' of postmodernity.


I wish this myth would die.


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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 2:56 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
why me wrote:
They are being taught that there is no absolute truth and that metanarratives no longer work. They are learning the 'wisdom' of postmodernity.


I wish this myth would die.


It won't. It's too useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:55 pm 
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"Community of Christ" (formerly: The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) allows gay marriage (not officially, but "ignored" it), and they give their priesthood to men and women both.

Tell the Young Girl to join "Community of Christ". They have 300,000 members.

moksha wrote:
My young daughter has expressed to me two concerns which keep bugging her:

1. She doesn't think the Church should interfere with gay marriages outside the Church.

2. She says the Church is chauvinistic and that girls as well as boys should be able to hold the priesthood.

I haven't encouraged her or discouraged her when she shares these thoughts. They do seem normal for any 12 year old LDS girl who is naturally idealistic. Given time she may learn to either stifle these thoughts and be sweet and pure in a cookie-cutter fashion or keep her concerns and be a person true to her own innate sense of right and wrong.

Do you think the educational system is pumping our children's heads with notions of justice and fair play?

.


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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:59 pm 
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I never learned about postmodernism until I got to college- and quickly rejected it. I think anyone that thinks postmodernism is alive and well probably was educated in a very specific time period (I bet I could even guess it!), and it's sad that you think it is still being spouted today.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:04 pm 
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MrStakhanovite wrote:
why me wrote:
They are being taught that there is no absolute truth and that metanarratives no longer work. They are learning the 'wisdom' of postmodernity.


I wish this myth would die.


Which myth? That postmodernism is alive and well? From what I understand (I am not a philosopher, but a scientist) it died in philosophy some time ago. Or is the myth that it is being taught to children today? I certainly don't think that is the case.

I graduated High school post 2000, I certainly never heard it in any of my courses, and admittedly, never even knew what it was until my Freshman year in college. I don't think it is part of the average curriculum.

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 Post subject: Re: Concern about Church from a Young Girl
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:35 am 
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Jhall118 wrote:

Which myth? That postmodernism is alive and well? From what I understand (I am not a philosopher, but a scientist) it died in philosophy some time ago. Or is the myth that it is being taught to children today? I certainly don't think that is the case.

I graduated High school post 2000, I certainly never heard it in any of my courses, and admittedly, never even knew what it was until my Freshman year in college. I don't think it is part of the average curriculum.



The notion that specific truth based in specific idenities is still alive and well in the unversity. For example: same sex marriage. This is embraced by a specific group who stresses their specific truth to the rest of society in hope that the entire society will embrace their truth. And much has been done to have this specific identity truth put into the mainstream.

Postmodernism does not need to spouted anymore. It is cemented into the study programs. What metanarratives are being learned today as general truths or for that matter, need to be embraced by the masses? The problem with Mormonism is that it is a metanarrative that rejects specific truths embraced by specific idenities. And this causes a reaction by these specific groups from a group that attempts to advance their truth of same sex marriage as a universal identity truth.

Post-postmodernism
Main article: Post-postmodernism

Recently the notion of the "death of postmodernism" has been increasingly widely debated: in 2007 Andrew Hoborek noted in his introduction to a special issue of the journal Twentieth Century Literature titled "After Postmodernism" that "declarations of postmodernism's demise have become a critical commonplace". A small group of critics has put forth a range of theories that aim to describe culture and/or society in the alleged aftermath of postmodernism, most notably Raoul Eshelman (performatism), Gilles Lipovetsky (hypermodernity), Nicolas Bourriaud (Altermodern), and Alan Kirby (digimodernism, formerly called pseudo-modernism). None of these new theories and labels has so far gained widespread acceptance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism

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