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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:30 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
I haven't met William. He's a stranger to me, a much older man whom I only know through the Internet.

A man who made a comment about my sexuality (or rather, a comment about a fantasy about my sexuality). A man who went out of his way to repeat said comment after I had stated in no uncertain terms that it was inappropriate.

Do you really not understand the problem with this?

And you wonder why your propaganda crapola doesn’t play well outside this stinky sewer. You are a compulsive liar. And not a very good one at that. I see you’re still trying to make some of your bigger lies stick. Good luck with that.

Will Schryver never said a word about your "sexuality". Of course, you know that. He did make reference to your willingness to talk nasty on this message board. At least when you’re not working hard to present the image of the ever-so-upright “Christian lady”. What a joke that is!

I can recall many times when you have engaged in dirty talk on this board, along with liz and Kimberly ann and others. And those are just the rare times when I've been paying attention. I'm sure it has happened a lot more than what I have seen personally. All Will is saying is that now you don’t have any reason to convince people like DCP that you are some paragon of virtue, you can be a little more open about your nastiness. No one here will accuse you of hypocrisy. You can be sure of that.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Quote:
Droopy, like many bat**** crazy pseudo-intellectual cranks, has a deep resentment for legitimate scholars and legitimate education.


Once the cloud of marijuana smoke clears from your room, and you're able to focus a bit, Buffalo, and can understand what I'm saying here, I want you to understand that nothing - not a thing you've ever posted here - indicates to me that you understand the concepts "scholar" or "education." I don't think you have the slightest conception of what those terms really mean.

Or once meant.

Quote:
Ann Coulter is the dean at the unaccredited Droopy Bible Academy For ____ Right Wing Polemics, Word Salad and Anti-Intellectualism.


Actually, I've never read Coulter's books, and haven't read her op-eds for quite sometime. Her polemical style should not fool anyone, however. She could take on the entire posse here and thrash them within an inch of their philosophical lives quite without mussing her hair.

She would chew you up and spit you out, Buffalo, like a wad of Dentyne.


Quote:
That's where Droopy earned his Ph.D., after vigorous internet research of similar self-styled experts from the John Birch Society and a mail-in application of $150.


Since your knowledge of the John Birch Society and its relationship to the early conservative intellectual movement is zero, as is your knowledge of anything you haven't picked up while watching Countdown with Keith Olbermann, little can be salvaged by engaging a determined ignoramus.


Thanks for proving my point. :)

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Droopy wrote:

No. "The posse" is here, among us. It is the core, anti-Mormon, left/liberal population of Mormondiscussion.com.

It is the Kevin Klux Klan.

It is the Shady Acres Syndicate.

It is...the Cesspark.



Thanks, Droopy. Please stop by tomorrow because I am posting my new book review of Cleon Skousen's "The 5,000 Year Leap".

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
This is just you're own intellectual insecurity writhing to the surface, yet again. The very fact that you think you have to do this kind of thing to everybody who disagrees with you is the smoking gun. Who else do we know who needs to preen and stroke his intellectual insecurity in public?

We wouldn't have far to look.

Not around here.


No, not everyone who disagrees with her. Just you. :)

You really are all bluster, no substance. :)

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Nomad wrote:
And you wonder why your propaganda crapola doesn’t play well outside this stinky sewer. You are a compulsive liar. And not a very good one at that. I see you’re still trying to make some of your bigger lies stick. Good luck with that.

Will Schryver never said a word about your "sexuality". Of course, you know that. He did make reference to your willingness to talk nasty on this message board. At least when you’re not working hard to present the image of the ever-so-upright “Christian lady”. What a joke that is!

I can recall many times when you have engaged in dirty talk on this board, along with liz and Kimberly ann and others. And those are just the rare times when I've been paying attention. I'm sure it has happened a lot more than what I have seen personally. All Will is saying is that now you don’t have any reason to convince people like DCP that you are some paragon of virtue, you can be a little more open about your nastiness. No one here will accuse you of hypocrisy. You can be sure of that.


Will, why don't you just defend yourself under your own name? You've already got Droopy to play the slavering sycophant. You don't need your Nomad sock puppet too.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


Last edited by Buffalo on Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Nomad wrote:
You are a compulsive liar.

Rich coming from you.

I've joked about sex on the forums (usually in threads that were already humorous or about sex). I'm allowed to initiate jokes about my own sex life.

I've never joked with William Schryver about sex, and I've never joked about sessions in "the Goddess suite."

And when I say that kind of joking is unwelcome in the conversation or has crossed my comfort line, I mean it. It shouldn't take more than that for someone to back down and drop it.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Heck, for the past half decade or so, Dan Peterson has been telling me that I'm "insane," "emotionally and/or mentally disturbed,"

Yes, I'm inclined to think that Scratch is off his rocker. Or else, that he's pretending to be.

And, of course, it should be kept in mind that I've only responded to his attacks on me. I didn't initiate this. I'd never heard of him until he opened his anonymous campaign against me.

And it should be further kept in mind that, while he has been engaged in a crusade to malign and defame a real public person (me) by name for the past five full years, I've been responding to, and occasionally mocking, a pseudonymous message board phantom.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I deserve to be incarcerated and/or "committed,"

I've never said that. I've sometimes wondered -- more than half in jest -- if he posts from an institution, but I have no viewpoint on whether or not he deserves to be committed or incarcerated. I know essentially nothing about him beyond his posting persona, but he's plainly fairly high-functioning. So I think it more likely that he gets out-patient care than that he's actually in a straightjacket.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I deserve to be shot,

This is the kind of ludicrous falsehood that suggests he's either nuts or pretending to be nuts.

I've never said that he deserves to be shot.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I have no friends,

I have no idea whether he has any friends in real life. I don't know who he is.

Whereas he tracks me constantly (even searching to find out what I've purchased on Amazon.com, and such things), keeps files on me, and comments on me incessantly, I have no idea who he is, and I've made no particular attempt to find out anything about his real life identity.

If he were ever to drop his malevolent crusade against me, I would probably never think of him again. As it is, to tell the truth, I think about him less and less, and that's quite pleasant.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I'm unemployed,

If he lives in an institution, he probably is unemployed.

But, as I say, I suspect that he most likely hasn't been institutionalized.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I need "smelling salts"

He definitely needs an emergency humor transplant.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
and/or that I need to be heavily medicated due to mental illness (using mental illness as a means of insult is a favorite of his) etc., etc.

Not really. It's just that, after being the target of his crusade for the past half-decade -- a crusade that I think is astoundingly bizarre -- alternative explanations for its implacable obsessiveness seem to become less and less plausible. He doesn't appear to me to be a normal person.

And now, to compound my sins, I'll offer this: Will Schryver's on-line posting style is not mine. But I've met him in person on several occasions over the years, and there is nothing, so far as I can tell, "creepy" about him.

(Incidentally, as to the c*** word, did anybody ever actually prove that he used it? He vehemently denies having ever done so, here or anywhere else. That's the worst of the things alleged against him here, and, if I'm not mistaken, several even of his critics on this board came to his defense on that point.)

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Last edited by Daniel Peterson on Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:59 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
Nomad wrote:
You are a compulsive liar.

Rich coming from you.

I've joked about sex on the forums (usually in threads that were already humorous or about sex). I'm allowed to initiate jokes about my own sex life.

I've never joked with William Schryver about sex, and I've never joked about sessions in "the Goddess suite."

And when I say that kind of joking is unwelcome in the conversation or has crossed my comfort line, I mean it. It shouldn't take more than that for someone to back down and drop it.

He never said a word about sex or sexuality to you. Not one. Just like he never used called harmony the “c” word, or ever called anyone a whore, or a slut. Like I said, you’re a compulsive liar. And a bad propagandist. I’m just glad you’ve kept it up long enough that others have been able to realize it. How does it feel to have marginalized yourself so badly in the eyes of those you were trying to influence? How does it feel to have sunk your flimsy reputation for “neutrality” and “objectivity”? How does it feel to have become known as a liar and an anti-mormon propagandist? Oh, I’m sure your popularity here is higher than ever. Congratulations, you’re the queen of the MormonDiscussions.com toilet, with a plunger for a scepter. Make that your avatar.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:18 pm 
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Nomad wrote:
He never said a word about sex or sexuality to you. Not one. Just like he never used called harmony the “c” word, or ever called anyone a whore, or a slut. Like I said, you’re a compulsive liar. And a bad propagandist. I’m just glad you’ve kept it up long enough that others have been able to realize it. How does it feel to have marginalized yourself so badly in the eyes of those you were trying to influence? How does it feel to have sunk your flimsy reputation for “neutrality” and “objectivity”? How does it feel to have become known as a liar and an anti-mormon propagandist? Oh, I’m sure your popularity here is higher than ever. Congratulations, you’re the queen of the MormonDiscussions.com toilet, with a plunger for a scepter. Make that your avatar.


Actually, she's pretty well respected, while you, er, cough, Will, have lost all credibility among your peers. Sucks to be you. :o

Will, doesn't it bother you that the only person willing to defend you (other than your sock puppets) is a pseudo-intellectual social pariah John Bircher at war with his own sexuality?

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:30 pm 
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Nomad wrote:
He never said a word about sex or sexuality to you.

The "Goddess Suite" is a well-known erotic joke in these parts. Guess you haven't been paying as much attention as you thought you had.

Nomad wrote:
How does it feel to have marginalized yourself so badly in the eyes of those you were trying to influence?

Who was I trying to influence?

Nomad wrote:
How does it feel to have sunk your flimsy reputation for “neutrality” and “objectivity”?

With whom have I sunk my reputation? Just a few posts ago, a recent FAIR Conference speaker said:

Don Bradley wrote:
Know, in either case, that making Jack out to be an anti-Mormon would be a very, very, very hard sell. Perhaps you aren't aware that Jack went to BYU, and is married to a Latter-day Saint? I've known her online for seven or eight years, used to chat with her frequently on ZLMB, and have spoken with her in person. And in my experience Jack is very fair and charitable. While being devoutly part of Evangelical Christianity, a faith of which so many of the adherents are anti-Mormon, she has managed to be a friend to Latter-day Saints. Would that all Evangelical Christians were as "anti-Mormon" as Jack!

Doesn't sound like my reputation has changed at all.

Nomad wrote:
How does it feel to have become known as a liar and an anti-mormon propagandist?

Who thinks I'm a liar and an anti-Mormon propagandist? If your answers are "Droopy, Pahoran, Wade Englund, and William's sock drawer," I gotta say, I'm unconcerned.

And if you don't have any names to drop in answer to those questions, then I'm really, really unconcerned.

Nomad wrote:
Oh, I’m sure your popularity here is higher than ever. Congratulations, you’re the queen of the MormonDiscussions.com toilet, with a plunger for a scepter. Make that your avatar.

Um . . . okay. Sounds like you're a lot more passionate about this place than I am. Good luck with that.

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Last edited by MsJack on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Will Schryver's on-line posting style is not mine. But I've met him in person on several occasions over the years, and there is nothing, so far as I can tell, "creepy" about him.

Your opinion of what William is like in person when he (presumably) isn't talking about anyone's breasts or their repulsive womanhood or their suggestive excesses in the Goddess Suite really means a lot to me.

Daniel Peterson wrote:
(Incidentally, as to the c*** word, did anybody ever actually prove that he used it? He vehemently denies having ever done so, here or anywhere else. That's the worst of the things alleged against him here, and, if I'm not mistaken, several even of his critics on this board came to his defense on that point.)

There is no way to "prove" that he used it. It was deleted by the mod that he said it to and this forum has no change log, and no one took a screenshot of it or anything.

Three people claimed to have seen him use it before it was deleted, one of whom commented within minutes of seeing it and whose comment seems to reflect that it was there. One person who was active in the thread at the time did not remember seeing it, but was not sure whether he saw the post before it was edited or not.

I only recall one critic, Eric, defending William on the point. Others (like Tarski) pointed out that it's perfectly silly to think "c---" is off-limits but the other things William says are no big deal.

Tarski wrote:
How idiotic of you to claim you would never use the c-word (contra witnesses) and yet freely refer to them using such things as the b-word and then refer to them as "the most repulsive women with whom.....". What is it in the c-word that is bad will? What is contained in that word that isn't already contain in "most repulsive..."? It's like you don't even realize why the c-word is objectionable.

viewtopic.php?p=449954#p449954

If this thread is about to become "Did William really use the c-word? Episode II," I'm officially checking out. The first thread is still there for examination if anyone still cares.

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Last edited by MsJack on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:36 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Heck, for the past half decade or so, Dan Peterson has been telling me that I'm "insane," "emotionally and/or mentally disturbed,"

Yes, I'm inclined to think that Scratch is off his rocker. Or else, that he's pretending to be.

And, of course, it should be kept in mind that I've only responded to his attacks on me. I didn't initiate this. I'd never heard of him until he opened his anonymous campaign against me.


That's not true at all. How forgetful you've become!

See: what happened is that I began posting on the old FAIRboard, and you began to get flustered. I was posting on a thread that dealt with race and the Church, and you dispensed your subtly racist tidbit about how you think interracial couples should be "warned" before getting married. I responded that your suggestion seemed problematic Then you proceeded to say--over and over--"Am I a racist, Scratch? Am I a racist, Scratch?" When I didn't directly say, "Yes," I was put on the queue. If anyone initiated aggressive interaction, it was you.

Later, of course, while posting out of the queue, I made some critical remarks about the peer review process at FARMS, and--out of the blue--you asserted there on the board that I had called you a "douchbag" or an "asshat" or something like that. Of course, this was completely false, but it didn't stop you from posting it, or reveling in the "humiliation" that you'd doled out to me.

When I appeared here on MormonDiscussions.com to protest what happened, you sent me an email. Remember that? It was titled "Mea Culpa," though it's hard to take serious a "mea culpa" that was little more than a pretext for conducting some kind of interrogation. You proceeded to essentially label me a liar, and, after a few emails, you insisted that I was on a "vindictive crusade," or something to that extent. This was after just a couple of exchanges. I remember scratching my head thinking: Gee, Daniel Peterson smears me, tells me that I "should feel embarrassed" over remarks I never made, he effectively causes me to be banned from the FAIRboard, he calls me a liar, "interrogates" me on whether or not and to what extent I'd participated on RfM, and when I object to this kind of treatment, I'm "on a vindictive crusade"? But as I well know by now, over-reaction is one of your stocks-in-trade.

Regardless, I have an extremely hard time seeing how you can innocently claim that *I* was someone the one who "started it." Even if I'd never posted to the old FAIRboard, and we'd never experienced any of those conflicts, I would have objected to your 25+ year career of pissing all over people who are in enormous amounts of pain. I would have objected to your gossip mongering, to the smear campaigns in the FARMS Review, to your SHIELDS stuff, the Skinny-L antics, the stuff with Eric; Ritnergate; the 2nd Watson Letter, and so on. You aren't some poor little innocent "victim," Dan. You've been aggressively going after people for close to three decades.

Quote:
And it should be further kept in mind that, while he has been engaged in a crusade to malign and defame a real public person (me) by name for the past five full years,


You've "defamed" yourself. The scope and range of people who know about the enormous legacy of infamy you've built for yourself extends far beyond anything I've ever said. I can bump into people who've never heard of "Doctor Scratch" who nonetheless know that Dan Peterson, Bill Hamblin, Louis Midgley, and the rest of the Skinny-L crew are grade-A jerks. And as you know, I'm not the only one who has been pointing this out. Before I turned up, you would have been more than happy to haul out one of your dozens of quotes from your RfM archive, just to show to everyone how splendidly "reviled" you are. You had hundreds of enemies before I came on the scene--as I recall, around the time that I first began reading the boards, you were obsessed with Tal Bachman, whom you called "Tall Tales Bachman." It wasn't long after that that you began ripping into Rollo Tomasi. You've just decided to fixate on me in recent years.


Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
that I deserve to be incarcerated and/or "committed,"

I've never said that. I've sometimes wondered -- more than half in jest -- if he posts from an institution, but I have no viewpoint on whether or not he deserves to be committed or incarcerated. I know essentially nothing about him beyond his posting persona, but he's plainly fairly high-functioning. So I think it more likely that he gets out-patient care than that he's actually in a straightjacket.


Hey: okay. Go ahead and make jokes like this if you think it's funny. Ha ha, Dan.

Quote:
Whereas he tracks me constantly (even searching to find out what I've purchased on Amazon.com, and such things)


Are you deliberately misrepresenting the facts, Dan? You invited me and everyone else here to look at your Amazon.com profile:

DCP wrote:
How hopelessly pretentious, mindlessly hostile, and spectacularly ignorant you are, Scratch, to presume to know what I read and what I listen to.

Here's a clue: Look for my name as a reviewer on Amazon.com.
(emphasis added)

viewtopic.php?p=254283#p254283

If you don't want people to look at your Amazon.com profile, don't invite them to do so. Or, what--are you going to complain the next time someone reads your "Mormon Times" article after you post a link? (And *I* am supposed to be the crazy one?)


Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
and/or that I need to be heavily medicated due to mental illness (using mental illness as a means of insult is a favorite of his) etc., etc.

Not really. It's just that, after being the target of his crusade for the past half-decade -- a crusade that I think is astoundingly bizarre -- alternative explanations for its implacable obsessiveness seem to become less and less plausible. He doesn't appear to me to be a normal person.


Well, Dr. P., I can't say that I much understand how a group of men would dither away 25+ years of their lives in pursuit of smearing people, plotting "hijacks" of conference presentations, sending random emails to and picking fights with Internet critics, etc. You've actually woven all this stuff into your professional lives. At least I can say that my criticism has been limited to the boards. You guys have actually made a career out of what you do.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:45 pm 
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A "BOMB"?: A PROPOSED (TENTATIVE) TRANSLATION PROCEDURE FOR THE KINDERHOOK CHARACTERS.

The work for CARACTORS is basically finished. Now it is more for academic work, as for students of some good and reliable universities, to finish the research. Maybe some LDS university center, like BYU, can do the work. As remain none mystery about the translation of the CARACTORS, their meaning, their origin and evolution through the time. This case is trivial.

What about the KINDERHOOK translation? The same as for CLASSIC NEPHITIC ("based on CARACTORS"), as the CHARACTERS are exactly the same: both the Church would like to exterminate, I guess. There is nothing to add or remove, because the CHARACTERS have the same origin. It is just a matter of intensity of evolution that we can see. As if in one case we can report the language used in the days of Joseph Smith and then we can read the report written in nowadays current English. Some distinction can be noticed.

Also we don't know the PERSONAL purpose that was given when both plates were written. Both documents were not based on the same source, as if originate by copy of some original document. Thus so many effects must be taken into account. Even we have to consider and judge the personal styles in selecting what characters to select or what to stress as more important.

As given more importance to old characters in relation to their surrounding living language of neighbors, of their OLD ITALIC ALPHABETS and ITALIAN/ETRUSCAN friends.

In any way so many of such more recent source of characters are present in KINDERHOOK, and they would be IMPOSSIBLE to have been added, because the TOMBS of such ANCIENT ITALIANS (as the ETRUSCANS) yet were too recent (they had started just in 1830...) and were not yet understood by Italian scientists and thus they were not known by academic/scientists of the World/Britsh/USA to have them been used/handled for practical purposes as a HOAX materials in KINDERHOOK). Mainly because also Kinderhook was a "lost far away place, at the end of the civilized world"... as it was the "FAR WEST".

Only people "mad as a HATTER" could guess in such so mad sick plan...

HOW COULD IT WORKS A TRANSLATION OF A KINDERHOOK PLATE?

For sure some learned LDS, as some of BYU, are not to appreciate this mere SUGGESTION. In fact it is not more than a SPECULATION by now:

Image

If you want to see much more enlarged, click on next URL. (click again on image to make it enlarge even more).
http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/2b688d8a81bcdb10dd4a7643975c3453a846b25442eaba626c2d731f755b0c246g.jpg

Consider the ENCLOSED PLATE 1, face 1 (other is the same thing).
Consider it is as if CARACTORS document. Thus it may have been written to the write or to the left or ALTERNATING (system BOUSTROPHEDON, that I concluded it was the case of NEPHITIC language based on CARACTORS document). Also it is KINDERHOOK... The usual is to start at the TOP.

You look at the document and you can see the "R" character, which looks like the modern letter=character "D", is in the reversed way. Thus we must read from Right to Left.

We start with the character "A" which appears "Phoenician", but it is upside down. It was never Phoenician... Probably this was from a manual for CRYPTOGRAPHY. On top of such "A" is an "I". Move to the left is character "I" and "R" and then "d" (signal to end the word). Thus we may have something like AIIRI.

Then we continue after "d" (which is like our "dot" for phrase or blank space between words): W W (they are from Sabellicus Sabina Tiberina of VI-V century BC... ITALY) and I and S (is only from Italic languages) and comes "d" (like an "end point"): the word WWIS ("UIS")

Then continues to left with U and I and S and you reach the END. What happens now? How do you continue to read? The E and S shapes tell us to read as Italic people did: from left to right. We are acting as Boustrophedon...

Thus we continue to read the WORD, that we stopped in UIS (upper line) and now we read E (like Greek EPSILON)... There is an I before character E. Thus we read IE. Continue there is R and the end of course "d". Thus the next possible word is UISIR.

Continuing we have LUTR. And then mark end of course.

Then start with S at the end of 2nd line and goes to the START of 3rd line because the letters/words are to be read toward the right (just examine them). At the very left of 3rd line, the word continues with I and then S and I and I and R. Comes the "d". Thus the word is SISIIR.

Then it continues AIRIAIS. Then comes "d". Then continues SISSE (last E already at the left of 4th line). Then continue ERIAKIS.
"d" AI "d" SI SIID.

No doubt, it is very "crude" yet as translation. But quite very much distinct in relation to what we have with CARACTORS, which is basically a LIST of CHARACTERS. And thus no chance of messages.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:58 pm 
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GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF Mormon having KINDERHOOK IN IT x

JOSEPH SMITH DISCLOSURE = UNVEILING about SUCH GEOGRAPHY linked to PUBLIC REVELATION ABOUT ZELPH and GEOGRAPHY OF Nephites KINGDOM x

MODERN LDS-BYU GEOGRAPHY OF Nephites IN MESO-AMERICA DENYING KINDERHOOK AND JOSEPH SMITH'S REVELATION ABOUT ZELPH geography


What are the BASICS and FUNDAMENTAL "principal" CORNERSTONES of LDS GEOGRAPHY? They are linked to the BOOK OF Mormon text.
As related to the NEPHITIC-LAMANITIC-MULEKITES and JAREDITES people living in "AMERICA", in "SOMEWHERE" geographic told places.

Are them in South America? In Meso-America/Central-America? In Mexico? In the USA? In somewhere Canada? Partly in USA and partly in Canada? In the whole North America continent? In all over the America continent? In just some Island of Sea (as Cuba?)?

What is the relationship of Geography for Nephitic-Lamanitic-Mulekitic events in relation to the Jareditic events? Are them in the same very land, with just other names? Or is just there some overlap of lands?

How can we know that one geographic event, described and located by some toponimic identification (as one name and feature) is the true same land of some other name in the other culture?

I guess there is just one case in which there is one "explicit" link of one Jaredict place being written as the same for Nephites, in Book of Mormon: it was when Jaredite's records were being translated into Nephitic's.

It is like you have the old map of Roman Empire, made as good as possible. Then you get another and modern map of Italy. And you try to identify the place of a plane crash event on both maps and how to go to such place. Probably some things are in common in both maps, as the rivers e peak of mountains, for example... Some towns and roads disappeared...

As in the case of Book of Mormon, some towns probably were burned, as they were made basically of WOOD, the ideal material for very cold places, as NORTH LANDS and thus the "devastation = DESOLATION, Deforestation"... And the bad environmental impacts as lack of animal wild life...

Think about the Japanese, living in places of very severe cold weather. "Guess" if their "dream" (like those described in Book of Mormon) was to live in a "cold" house made of STONES or of BLOCKS OF CEMENT... No! As in Book of Mormon, Their "dream" was to have houses made of WOOD, even if it comes from far away, transported by huge Hagoth's cargo sail ships. Because of CONFORT, as thermal one, provided by wood. Also it is safer if you are subject to earthquakes: I lived in Berkeley (S.F.Bay Area).

For hot climates, it makes no difference in living in a brick house or without wood thermal insulation on floor and walls. Thus in Jerusalem and Israel or Egypt it was reasonable to live in houses made of stones or bricks or "blocks of soil cement = quick lime + sand + pebble stones".

Where did start the KINGDOM OF Nephites? Had KINDERHOOK?

WHERE IS THE VERY BASIC MAP of the GEOGRAPHY of BOOK OF Mormon LINKING NEPHITIC DAYS and our MODERNITY DAYS?

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/e23 ... 69f06g.jpg CLICK ON URL

You can see the pathway of Nephites (and also of the CHURCH) from the landing harbor of LIBERTY (statue...). Nephites landed in N.Y. Long Island (point 1), moved through Hudson River to Cumorah Hill on Sea East (Lake Ontario) = Point 2. Next moved to Kirtland, Ohio, L.Erie (point 3). Then to point 10, at the margin of River Illinois, where it was found the skeleton of ZELF (WHITE Lamanite Warrior, who was known all over the Nephite KINGDOM, from CUMORAH HILL to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS: disclosure by Joseph Smith). From point they went to point 4=Independence, Mis. ; then to point 5=NAUVOO, Illinois, which is KINDERHOOK location. Well in the Joseph Smith's route from CUMORAH HILL to the ROCKY MOUNTAINS for Nephite's KINGDOM size.

http://img28.mediafire.com/b179bd4047cd ... 6f4b6g.jpg Then click on the image for it become even enlarged.

From point 5 LDS moved to 6=Winter Quarters. The Old Nephites from 6 moved to 8 = LOS LUNAS, a great smooth stiff flat vertical wall with carved religious message in NEPHITIC CHARACTERS of type shown in KINDERHOOK plates. In modernity days the modern Nephites moved from point 6 to the point 6 = Salt Lake Valley, in Rocky Mountains.

JOSEPH SMITH declared very plainly that places like KINDERHOOK, NAUVOO, INDEPENDENCE, KIRTLAND, CUMORAH, etc. all were built over the Nephites EMPIRE.... And never told untruth things like that the Nephites empire was sited in Mexico or Meso-America... In very plain words, Joseph Smith told the very truth during the event of ZELPH's skeleton discovery next to River Illinois: point "10" in the enclosed MAPS. One reason why they try to silence KINDERHOOK.

I used such Zelf's CLUE from the GREATEST and New prophet, instead of using so many bad clues from people who are just "curious"... Without powers of God's revelation, just providing Aaron foolished Jews to worship gold calf (even being well informed about Truth and God) and for Balaam’s revelation as to fornicate Jews with Arab's girls.

This is what some are doing and teaching, acting as Aaron, that Nephite's kingdom was in Mexico or Guatemala or "both" or there but with Cumorah's last battle being as in one isolated point in USA, with enemy Armies marching side-by-side, in peace, by thousand of miles just to face the final battle so far away... Could believe in so untruth?

Some good pioneers were of "good heart", like those asking to Aaron, Moses' brother, some way to make it easier to worship God. Providing an easier and more reliable religion, full of idols to touch and make tourism trips to such Nephitic ruins. Quite like going to Israel to see ruins in the "Holly Land" and their tourist religious events.

In fact it is much easier to worship a Gold calf that everybody can "see" (as pyramids in Mexico and Guatemala... They distort their true bloodiest history as being Nephiste's), than to believe in some History that is kept much HIDDEN. As it was to believe in GOLD PLATES that nobody could SEE or TOUCH or examine. It was as if MOSES' God before Israel: they wanted IDOLS, tourism. They had to make choices. Believe in Moses' God, based on Moses' word and disclosure (revelations) and keep marching in the desert during 40 years. Or, ... for sure, they had the option to return to the Egypt and return to the life of slavery. And being slaves of Gold Idols of Egypt, also liars.

Or could return to believe in idols and pyramids of Mexico/Guatemala as being what is the true Geography from Book of Mormon events and IDOLS being added... Free! People like very much idols, statues... mainly if of gold or covered with a thin sheet of gold. See Aaron...

Some old Christians instead of combating some pagan idols, as so many "goddess", Pagan female God, decided to turn all of them into "one": their "Mother of God" (and there is just one God, Mother of the One God). Thus all Pagan female Divinity were turned into just "one" and then accommodated and used to attract so many adepts...

This old practice of "accommodation" and "attraction" may explain the interest in making Meso-America and Mexico also "integrated", even since the old past as part of the Nephitic kingdom and with the ruins.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:49 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
See: what happened is that I began posting on the old FAIRboard, and you began to get flustered.

Exasperated, not flustered. You've never flustered me in your life. Don't flatter yourself.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
I was posting on a thread that dealt with race and the Church, and you dispensed your subtly racist tidbit about how you think interracial couples should be "warned" before getting married.

There's nothing racist about it whatsoever. I think that couples from different cultures should go into marriage fully aware that marriage inevitably brings conflict and stress as the two partners become accustomed to one another, and that cultural differences add yet another potential element of stress to their relationship. And interracial couples should be aware that they (and, perhaps even more so, their children) are likely to face additional external stresses. That's simply realism -- though, fortunately, I think that the stigma and other problems associated with interracial marriage have largely vanished over the past decade or two.

I have, quite happily, signed marriage recommends for several interracial and intercultural couples. You do me a gross injustice -- not, of course, that that will bother or faze you in the slightest -- to suggest that I'm a racist.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
I was put on the queue. If anyone initiated aggressive interaction, it was you.

I did not have you suspended or banned. I have never had anybody suspended or banned.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Later, of course, while posting out of the queue, I made some critical remarks about the peer review process at FARMS, and--out of the blue--you asserted there on the board that I had called you a "douchbag" or an "asshat" or something like that. Of course, this was completely false, but it didn't stop you from posting it, or reveling in the "humiliation" that you'd doled out to me.

I don't recall the "reveling," but I do remember saying that you had called me an obscene name on the so-called Recovery board. (The person who did so called himself "Mister Scratch.") I still feel reasonably confident that you did.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
You proceeded to essentially label me a liar,

I still think you were lying.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
you insisted that I was on a "vindictive crusade,"

LOL. Where on earth would I have gotten that crazy idea?

And it's certainly clear now, half a decade later, that you're not, right?

Doctor Scratch wrote:
I have an extremely hard time seeing how you can innocently claim that *I* was someone the one who "started it."

Until "Mister Scratch" appeared on a public message board to anonymously malign me, I'd never heard of him. Ergo, I could not have begun our exchanges.

I, on the other hand, have had a public reputation and presence apart from any message board for many years.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
your 25+ year career of pissing all over people who are in enormous amounts of pain.

This is essentially a fictional creation of yours.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
your gossip mongering, to the smear campaigns in the FARMS Review, to your SHIELDS stuff, the Skinny-L antics, the stuff with Eric; Ritnergate; the 2nd Watson Letter, and so on.

Again, essentially your invented fictions and grotesquely spun exaggerations and distortions.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
the enormous legacy of infamy you've built for yourself

You're delusional.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
You've just decided to fixate on me in recent years.

Talk about pretended innocence!

I just arbitrarily singled you out? What unmitigated rubbish.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
And *I* am supposed to be the crazy one?

Well, no. Of course not. In an ideal world, you wouldn't be crazy. I certainly get no pleasure out of your condition.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
I can't say that I much understand how a group of men would dither away 25+ years of their lives in pursuit of smearing people, plotting "hijacks" of conference presentations, sending random emails to and picking fights with Internet critics, etc.

I wouldn't pretend to understand such behavior, either.

Here's a hint: Don't believe your own fictions.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
You guys have actually made a career out of what you do.

I have, indeed, made a career out of what I do. (That seems rather tautological, don't you think?) It's just that what I do scarcely resembles what you say I do. The first issue of the Mormon Studies Review went to press last week. Another volume in the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative will go to press probably next week. BYU's fall term has begun this week, and I'm teaching (on the Qur’an and on Arabic literature). I sent off a new column this morning, and I'm putting the finishing touches on two substantial articles for publication in England. That's what I do.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:55 pm 
High Priest

Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:28 pm
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
There's nothing racist about it whatsoever. I think that couples from different cultures should go into marriage fully aware that marriage inevitably brings conflict and stress as the two partners become accustomed to one another, and that cultural differences add yet another potential element of stress to their relationship. And interracial couples should be aware that they (and, perhaps even more so, their children) are likely to face additional external stresses. That's simply realism -- though, fortunately, I think that the stigma and other problems associated with interracial marriage have largely vanished over the past decade or two.


Skin color is not a culture.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:08 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Skin color is not a culture.

Obviously not.

And, just as obviously, I didn't suggest that it is.

My post mentioned two distinct but often interrelated things: intercultural marriage and interethnic marriage.

But every marriage is a merger of conflicting family cultures -- my family certainly did things differently, celebrated holidays differently, ate differently, spent its leisure time differently, etc., than did my wife's family, even though we both come from middle class to upper middle class American backgrounds -- and different ethnicities (sometimes reflected in varying skin colors) often come with cultural differences.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:28 pm 
High Priest

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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Skin color is not a culture.

Obviously not.

And, just as obviously, I didn't suggest that it is.

My post mentioned two distinct but often interrelated things: intercultural marriage and interethnic marriage.

But every marriage is a merger of conflicting family cultures -- my family certainly did things differently, celebrated holidays differently, ate differently, spent its leisure time differently, etc., than did my wife's family, even though we both come from middle class to upper middle class American backgrounds -- and different ethnicities (sometimes reflected in varying skin colors) often come with cultural differences.


Then why warn interracial couples? Why does skin color play any factor at all?

You simply cannot predict what the cultural differences will be based on differences in skin coloration any more than you can based on hair color, eye color, or any other superficial physical characteristic. So why would this be a criteria you use for warning a couple?


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:46 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Then why warn interracial couples? Why does skin color play any factor at all?

Because, to quote myself from the post above, "they (and, perhaps even more so, their children) are likely to face additional external stresses. That's simply realism -- though, fortunately, I think that the stigma and other problems associated with interracial marriage have largely vanished over the past decade or two."

Dad of a Mormon wrote:
You simply cannot predict what the cultural differences will be based on differences in skin coloration any more than you can based on hair color, eye color, or any other superficial physical characteristic. So why would this be a criteria you use for warning a couple?

Who said that skin color alone was my "criterion"?

I never did, and it wasn't.

You seem to imagine, moreover, that I go about warning interracial couples that I don't know, in a vacuum.

Scratch is trying to portray as racist the premarital counseling that I did as a bishop. But these were, in every case, couples that I'd known quite well, and for whom I cared deeply, and I counseled with and interviewed them on numerous occasions. And anything that I said regarding the stresses and strains that they might encounter because of ethnic and/or cultural differences was a very small portion of the overall counseling that I did with them.

I don't like divorce. I want couples to go into marriage forewarned and resolved to overcome external challenges as well as the strains intrinsic to their new status. I tried to give realistic, frank, useful advice to the people who came to me to receive it. I don't apologize for that, and I can't think of a single expression, from any of the numerous couples with whom I spent many hours of time, of displeasure or anger at the counsel that I offered.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:49 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
I was put on the queue. If anyone initiated aggressive interaction, it was you.

I did not have you suspended or banned. I have never had anybody suspended or banned.


That's not my point. My point is that you were the one who started up with the aggressive rhetoric. You've tried to act is if I was the one who "fired the first shot." That just ain't true, Prof. P.

Quote:
I don't recall the "reveling," but I do remember saying that you had called me an obscene name on the so-called Recovery board. (The person who did so called himself "Mister Scratch.") I still feel reasonably confident that you did.


Yes, I remember you "saying" that, too. I remember you saying this--and repeating it--with no evidence whatsoever. I remember you reacting with great mirth as the more aggressive TBMs, like "Scotty Dog" Lloyd and Pahoran, began raining down their priesthood-sanctioned judgments and condemnations in classic MAD/FAIR/MDD fashion. Of course it didn't matter in the least that you had no evidence--no link; no screen shot; nothing--they happily lapped it all up. When I appeared here to deny it (as I've already said), you sent me a "Mea Culpa" series of emails that consisted of you "interrogating" me about my posting history on RfM, accusing me of lying, and so on. Of course I realize *now* that this is the tactic you've adopted: crap on people in public such that they face ridicule or embarrassment, and then turn on the manipulation behind the scenes. How many other people have you done that to, I wonder?

Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
You proceeded to essentially label me a liar,

I still think you were lying.


Should I say what you say? That you shouldn't "believe your own fictions"? *This* is precisely what I'm talking about, Dan. *I* was not the one who began with the aggressive rhetoric, nor with the accusations. It was you, from day one. Funny how your insistence has now come back to bite you on the rear, isn't it? How many people now think that *you* were lying about getting paid for apologetics, or the 2nd Watson Letter, or the Signature Books Memo, etc., etc., etc.? Karma's a cruel mistress, isn't she?

Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
you insisted that I was on a "vindictive crusade,"

LOL. Where on earth would I have gotten that crazy idea?


After four or so emails that you initiated? I have no idea. I thought at the time that you seemed overly paranoid and reactionary.

Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
I have an extremely hard time seeing how you can innocently claim that *I* was someone the one who "started it."

Until "Mister Scratch" appeared on a public message board to anonymously malign me, I'd never heard of him. Ergo, I could not have begun our exchanges.


You realize what this sounds like, right? It sounds like you got "flustered" or "exasperated" (or however you want to put it) during our exchange on the race thread, and you simply invented this story about me calling you names as a means of attack. Is that really what you did?

But it doesn't matter. I'm sure you understand by now what it's like to have someone insist over and over and over that you're lying, despite your pleas to the contrary.

Quote:
Doctor Scratch wrote:
your 25+ year career of pissing all over people who are in enormous amounts of pain.

This is essentially a fictional creation of yours.


No, not really. The evidence of it is posted all over the Web, thanks to you and your Skinny-L cronies, and your pals at the Maxwell Institute.

Quote:
I just arbitrarily singled you out? What unmitigated rubbish.


At the outset, yes. That's exactly what you did. Again: you seem to be wandering far, far afield from your claim that I somehow "initiated" things with you. It just ain't so. You were the one who picked this fight. Even now you're still stubbornly clinging to your wrong-headed belief that I was a liar. So it goes; the world turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 12:07 am 
Seething Cauldron of Hate
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
My point is that you were the one who started up with the aggressive rhetoric. You've tried to act is if I was the one who "fired the first shot."

You insinuated that I was a racist.

(You've done so again on this very thread.)

You don't call that aggressive?

You came on the board to attack me. I had never heard of you until you appeared and began to attack me.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Of course it didn't matter in the least that you had no evidence--no link; no screen shot; nothing

Virtually all RFM posts disappear after a few weeks. Of course no evidence survives.

But I simply don't buy the notion that it was just coincidence that a fiercely hostile new poster calling himself "Mister Scratch" appeared on the old FAIR board essentially to criticize me at exactly the same that a new poster calling himself "Mister Scratch" appeared on RFM and devoted his entire effort there to attacking me. Nor do I think that it was merely coincidental that "Mister Scratch" seems never to have posted another item on RFM after I called you on what he had said there.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
You realize what this sounds like, right? It sounds like you got "flustered" or "exasperated" (or however you want to put it) during our exchange on the race thread, and you simply invented this story about me calling you names as a means of attack. Is that really what you did?

No. It's not.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
But it doesn't matter. I'm sure you understand by now what it's like to have someone insist over and over and over that you're lying, despite your pleas to the contrary.

Indeed. I've always been pretty sure that your now-five-year-long campaign of accusations and defamation against me has been an obsessive attempt at revenge.

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