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 Post subject: Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Is this the best you can do? Off color, yes. Misogynist?

I believe we've already had that thread. You did a poor job of defending your idol then, and you're doing a poor job of defending him now.

And for the record, if your name isn't "Dan Peterson," I wasn't asking you anyways. Your opinion doesn't interest me.

Droopy wrote:
This is why you, and most of the Morlocks who populate this board have neither credibility or respect outside your own little matrix.

How would I measure "credibility or respect outside [my] own little matrix"? Would articles in Christian periodicals and interviews with national television shows and newspapers count? Would being asked to introduce speakers at the FAIR Conference and write for the Mormon gateway at Patheos count? Or are they part of my matrix, too?

Droopy wrote:
You folks have been at DEFCON 4 since Will came on the scene and began deflating the tires of your favorite pastime: gnawing on the Book of Abraham

CFR. I would like to hear some examples of myself "gnawing on the Book of Abraham." Should be easy for you to find since it's such a favorite pastime of mine.

Droopy wrote:
(without ever trying to understand what it actually says).

I'm pretty sure I made an effort to understand what the Book of Abraham actually says when I took that Pearl of Great Price class as a freshman at BYU. Got an A in it, too.

Droopy wrote:
Speaking of misogyny, has anybody noticed MsJack's avatar?

I wonder, could this be an attempt at "entrapment?"

No. It's a picture of some bad pulp that Blixa photoshopped to say "Ms. Jack."

Keep trying though. I'm sure you're about to turn up evidence that I'm up to something truly sinister any minute now . . .

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Oh, and by the way, we've already heard these arguments from Droopy.

He didn't stick around to defend his wild arguments then, and he probably isn't going to stick around to defend them now.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 7:56 pm 
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Quote:
You did a poor job of defending your idol then, and you're doing a poor job of defending him now.


Now that you're out of your den after a long winter's nap, perhaps you could come up with something a bit more...oh, misogynistic; something that would give your accusations at least a patina of legitimacy beyond your standard technique of inflating common, garden variety insults aimed at very disagreeable people as signs of broad based psychopathology.

Something, in other words, beyond the special pleading of a vindictive character assassin

Quote:
How would I measure "credibility or respect outside [my] own little matrix"? Would articles in Christian periodicals and interviews with national television shows and newspapers count? Would being asked to introduce speakers at the FAIR Conference and write for the Mormon gateway at Patheos count? Or are they part of my matrix, too?


None of these are, in any necessary way, signs of credibility. There snapshots of your life, not signs of credibility. Al Gore is infinitely more well known, has done far more interviews and articles than you likely ever will, and written several major books, and done a major Hollywood move, and he has no credibility, so where does this leave you? Lots of intellectuals throughout history have had public venues, but little or no credibility. Credibility is grounded in intellectual substance and intellectual integrity, not the venues you've been given to peddle your intellectual wares. You're behavior here, regarding your disingenuous witch hunt against an apologist who threatened your fragile worldview, is the issue at hand.

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CFR. I would like to hear some examples of myself "gnawing on the Book of Abraham." Should be easy for you to find since it's such a favorite pastime of mine.


Did I mention you? It is the favorite pastime of many here, and always has been. In any case, when any of you think of Will, you think of the Book of Abraham and the distinct possibility that the wall of voodoo you have built up around it could come tumbling down at any time. That was the basis of the entire Will dogpile, and we among those who defend the Church...as well as you, know that perfectly well.

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I'm pretty sure I made an effort to understand what the Book of Abraham actually says when I took that Pearl of Great Price class as a freshman at BYU. Got an A in it, too.


You're "pretty sure?" Hardly compelling, considering the source.

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No. It's a picture of some bad pulp that Blixa photoshopped to say "Ms. Jack."


Nice dodge.

Quote:
Keep trying though. I'm sure you're about to turn up evidence that I'm up to something truly sinister any minute now . . .


And wouldn't that be poetic justice...

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 Post subject: Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:06 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
Now that you're out of your den after a long winter's nap,

At least you didn't tell me that I climbed out from under my house.

Droopy wrote:
perhaps you could come up with something a bit more...oh, misogynistic;

I already laid out my case substantively; you failed to engage it. You saying "nuh uh" doesn't change that.

Droopy wrote:
None of these are signs of credibility. You're behavior here, regarding your disingenuous witch hunt against an apologist who threatened your fragile worldview, is the issue at hand.

Again, CFR. What fragile worldview of mine did William threaten?

Droopy wrote:
Did I mention you? It is the favorite pastime of many here, and always has been.

Yes. You used the second-person pronoun "you." This would indicate that you were speaking to me.

Droopy wrote:
You're "pretty sure?" Hardly compelling, considering the source.

I agree; BYU courses on ancient scripture really don't provide the most rigorous course of study. But rest assured, I made a sincere attempt at understanding the Book of Abraham.

Droopy wrote:
Nice dodge.

I'm lost. What am I dodging again?

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:11 pm 
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MsJack wrote:
Oh, and by the way, we've already heard these arguments from Droopy.

He didn't stick around to defend his wild arguments then, and he probably isn't going to stick around to defend them now.


No, I only stuck around for upwards of two weeks on a near daily basis defending them, amongst other well known apologists in the mix. I left when Wade's characterization of this place as a "cesspool" made me realize that the time had come to abandon the ship to the rats.

All of you here, you included, lost that argument miserably, and were exposed as the pack of snapping, drooling, deeply threatened hyenas that you symbolically are.

I've followed anti-Mormonism, EV and secular, for over thirty years now, and the Will episode was indicative of the presence in the apologetic community of someone who represented, at that time, a rather unique existential threat to the anti-Mormon, and especially ex-Mormon template.

Hence, the sheer viciousness and relentlessness of the lynching.

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

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 Post subject: Re: Don Bradley’s Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:22 pm 
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You are, after all Jack, a consistent contributor to an anti-Mormon board, who has traditionally made anti-Mormon arguments and taken consistent anti-Mormon positions, and who has aided and abetted a much larger anti-LDS culture and worldview.

I'm sure you have a cute, sophistic, drive-by response to these claims that will allow you to hide in plain sight, as you usually do when someone attempts to pin you down on anything (except the character destruction of LDS apologists who push just a little bit too hard against the protective membrane of your own self important intellectual conceit).

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- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:41 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
No, I only stuck around for upwards of two weeks on a near daily basis defending them,

I refuted your OP four days after you wrote it, and you never replied. Try again.

Droopy wrote:
All of you here, you included, lost that argument miserably, and were exposed as the pack of snapping, drooling, deeply threatened hyenas that you symbolically are.

CFR, Droopy. Link me to where this epic PWNage took place.

Droopy wrote:
I've followed anti-Mormonism, EV and secular, for over thirty years now

I'm not an anti-Mormon by any definition of the word that I've ever heard---not even the loosest, most ridiculous of them---and I'm not interested in listening to you wax on about trends that you imagine you've observed among antis. Has no bearing on anything pertaining to me.

Droopy wrote:
Yes but, I, Wade, and Will himself showed repeatedly that your "case" was composed of nothing more than a grain of truth bloated by the most swollen, egregious pseudo-moral pomposity I've ever seen among a gang of self interested demagogues pretending to be outraged moralists.

Nope. Didn't hap.

Droopy wrote:
Any worldview that sees the restored gospel and the Church representing it as a threat to its own legitimacy as a credible worldview.

I do not see what you call "the restored gospel" or my husband's church as a threat to the legitimacy of my own worldview. Not even a little bit.

Droopy wrote:
The more you make this assertion, the more restless I become.

Sounds like a personal problem, Droopy. Hope you get that checked out.

Droopy wrote:
Everything, Jack. Everything.

If you say so.

Droopy wrote:
You are, after all Jack, a consistent contributor to an anti-Mormon board

Do you mean this board? I've made 1920 posts here since July 2008. You've made 4044 posts here since May 2008. You're far more consistent in your contributions to this board than I am.

Droopy wrote:
who has traditionally made anti-Mormon arguments and taken consistent anti-Mormon positions,

CFR and CFR. I want some examples of these traditional anti-Mormon arguments and consistent anti-Mormon positions I've taken.

Droopy wrote:
and who has aided and abetted a much larger anti-LDS culture and worldview.

Please. Brigham Young did more to aid and abet "anti-LDS culture and worldview" than I ever did.

Droopy wrote:
I'm sure you have a cute, sophistic, drive-by response to these claims that will allow you to hide in plain sight, as you usually do when someone attempts to pin you down on anything

You can't "pin me down" on anything because you can never be bothered to research some supporting examples to back up your wild caricatures of me. Guess you were absent for that day of class.

Gods Droopy. You are a joke.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:17 pm 
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Quote:
I refuted your OP four days after you wrote it, and you never replied. Try again.


The Will dogpile post went on for a good two weeks, and ran out to well over 40 pages, as I recall, and I was there for the majority of it. You "refuted" nothing (Nice Grahamism there). What you did was repeat, over and over again, the same claims you made at the outset, which quickly became a mantra, a which made quite clear as the thread progressed, that your entire "misogyny" case against Will was a self interested dog and pony show.

Quote:
CFR, Droopy. Link me to where this epic PWNage took place.


You know the thread, so why ask me (and there was at least one major spin-off as well, as I recall)?

Quote:
I'm not an anti-Mormon by any definition of the word that I've ever heard---not even the loosest, most ridiculous of them---and I'm not interested in listening to you wax on about trends that you imagine you've observed among antis. Has no bearing on anything pertaining to me.


So now you run into naked prevarication to keep your posterior out of the proverbial sling. I suppose that's to be expected.

Quote:
Nope. Didn't hap.


Yes, it did happen. You just don't see it because of that existential threat to your worldview Will initially posed, and which his defenders pressed upon you while they exposed the base motives behind the pious howls of moral outrage.

Quote:
I do not see what you call "the restored gospel" or my husband's church as a threat to the legitimacy of my own worldview. Not even a little bit.


The transparent motives of the very thread under discussion, and your part in it, will simply not support that claim.

Quote:
CFR and CFR. I want some examples of these traditional anti-Mormon arguments and consistent anti-Mormon positions I've taken.


You character assassinated Mr. Schryver to prevent the publication of his work. You and others here succeeded. You went as far as to slander him with what is, at all events, a bald faced lie regarding the 'c' word. The sheer extremity of your commitment to the destruction of his reputation, at whatever moral cost, is clearly indicative of a much deeper hostility to what he represents, which is the defense of the BofA as an authentic ancient text containing eternal truths and which, as such, testifies to the divine authenticity of the restored gospel and the Church that represents it on earth at present.

Run and hide, duck and cover, Jack, but your own behavior in this forum keeps screaming, "Here I am, here I am!"

Quote:
Please. Brigham Young did more to aid and abet "anti-LDS culture and worldview" than I ever did.


Its gratifying, in a certain way, to see you protest that you are not an anti-Mormon and then turn around and unambiguously confirm it in only a few brief sentences. Witting or unwitting, it was a grand performance.
Quote:

Quote:
You can't "pin me down" on anything because you can never be bothered to research some supporting examples to back up your wild caricatures of me. Guess you were absent for that day of class.


How about, just for your initiation, what bc characterized, in a debate with you, as your "grandiose claim" of the numerous affairs Joseph Smith allegedly had with sundry woman? That's a textbook anti-Mormon position, especially given that not a shred of compelling documentary corroboration exists to confirm such claims, or ever has.

You claim:

Quote:
Compton's book demonstrates convincingly that the historical evidence is heavily in favor of sex between Joseph Smith and at least some of his wives. Even FAIR and FARMS have admitted that this was likely the case. That is all that is needed for someone to decide that Joseph Smith's unions were, in some sense, adulterous. Compton also shows that in the cases of several of the wives, Emma Smith was completely unaware of the marriages. Likely she was unaware of most of them. Even the most diehard TBM would admit that a man who sleeps with other women without his wife's knowledge or consent is committing adultery.


Joseph Smith may have had sexual relations with some of his plural wives. That, after all, is one primary purpose of that institution. The utter lack of known descendants of any such relations militates against hasty inferences, however. But even if he did, these were, by definition, so long as lawfully performed under the mediation of the Melchizedek priesthood, non-adulterous by definition.

Legitimate plural marriage is biblical doctrine, and well attested in the OT. To accuse Joseph of adultery requires both a deep misunderstanding of core LDS doctrine regarding the various facets of eternal marriage as well as what could only be understood as a fundamentally apostate or certainly apostate-like intellectual/psychological orientation that places one's own personal biases/prejudices and perspectives above revelation, both ancient and modern.

Joseph was no adulterer so long as he was called and ordained to the practice of plural marriage by legitimate priesthood authority. Getting rid of Joseph's ministerial legitimacy has always been, of course, pivotal to subverting the entire basis of the Church's claims to divine legitimacy as an institution.

But of course, you knew that, didn't you?

I'd be pleased to hear your pro-Mormon perspectives of the Book of Abraham, Jack.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Last edited by Droopy on Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:28 pm 
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I'd also like to hear your pro-LDS views on the following core subjects:

1.The First Vision.

2.The literal visit of Moroni to Joseph Smith and the physical reality of the gold plates.

3.The personal visitation to Joseph Smith and others of physical, resurrected beings, such as Moses, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Peter, James, and John etc., to restore keys and ordinances.

4.The doctrine of preexistence.

This would suffice for a small initial exploration.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:33 pm 
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Loran is a textbook example of self delusion.

God love him. He is the best thing the critics could ever hope for.

Every time I get into an argument about how deluded and misbehaved some Mormons are, I get to point to Loran's fine example when I'm told Mormons do no such thing.

He's a life-saver in so many ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:39 pm 
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Hi Droopy.

You'll recall that after nearly five years outside the church, I announced here and on MDD last summer that I had been rebaptized.

One of the wisest and warmest of the many kind responses I received, and the one that meant the most to me, was this:

Quote:
Don ~ After my husband and I had been married for almost a year, he came to me and rather suddenly asked for a divorce. I fought him on it, but we wound up legally separating and I finally reached a point where I stopped fighting and told him to just give me the paperwork and I would let him go. In my mind, our marriage was over and it was time to get used to the stigma of being young, evangelical and divorced (which could quite possibly be worse than the stigma of being evangelical and married to an "unbeliever").

The paperwork never arrived. My husband had a change of heart, he moved back in with me, and we decided to give things another shot. This November will mark our seventh anniversary.

I can honestly say that our marriage has been much happier and more satisfying since we went through our separation and near divorce. When we got married, I think we were both naïve and came to the table with some very unrealistic expectations on how our marriage would function. When we got back together, we'd seen each other at our worst and knew exactly what we were getting into, and we accepted each other in spite of that.

I bring this up because I think making a church work is a lot like making a marriage work. Some people enter into it with naïve or false expectations, which they may have very well formed because of what they were told by the church, and they leave because it didn't live up to their expectations. Some people find that the religion was a horrible match for them from the start and leaving is the only reasonable option, for both parties. We can go all kinds of places with this analogy.

I think you've seen the LDS church at its worst, Don. You know the problems as well as any of us, and yet you've still decided to embrace it in spite of these flaws and give a relationship with the church a second try. I'm wishing you the best of luck on this second attempt. If you ever need someone to talk to about your "marriage," you know where to find me.


The author was Jack.
_______________________

I understand that sometimes in the heat of these online discussions we sometimes let some things fly that aren't what we would say in our calmer and more reflective moments. I'm going to guess that your calling Jack an anti-Mormon was made in the heat of discussion, rather than being really thought through.

Know, in either case, that making Jack out to be an anti-Mormon would be a very, very, very hard sell. Perhaps you aren't aware that Jack went to BYU, and is married to a Latter-day Saint? I've known her online for seven or eight years, used to chat with her frequently on ZLMB, and have spoken with her in person. And in my experience Jack is very fair and charitable. While being devoutly part of Evangelical Christianity, a faith of which so many of the adherents are anti-Mormon, she has managed to be a friend to Latter-day Saints. Would that all Evangelical Christians were as "anti-Mormon" as Jack!

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:43 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
I'd also like to hear your pro-LDS views on the following core subjects:

1.The First Vision.

2.The literal visit of Moroni to Joseph Smith and the physical reality of the gold plates.

3.The personal visitation to Joseph Smith and others of physical, resurrected beings, such as Moses, Abraham, Noah, Enoch, Peter, James, and John etc., to restore keys and ordinances.

4.The doctrine of preexistence.

This would suffice for a small initial exploration.


Droopy,

You are confusing not being anti-Mormon with actually being LDS.

By the definition implied in the questions above, everyone who doesn't believe in the restoration is "anti-Mormon," in which case we are condemned to live in a world in which 99.95% of the population is anti-Mormon, God help us.

Jack isn't Mormon; that doesn't make her anti-Mormon anymore than your not being Hindu makes you an anti-Hindu.

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:44 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
Loran is a textbook example of self delusion.


Brilliant, Kevin. You're scintillating philosophical depth leaves me reeling...
Quote:
God love him. He is the best thing the critics could ever hope for.


Truth be told, the worst thing critics can possibly hope for is Sargent Graham's anti-Mormon Misery Tour, with all of its flamboyant narcissism, faux scholarship, grandiose intellectual posturing, and venomous hostility.

The Kevin Klux Klan continues its march to infamy, post after post, ad hominem attack after ad hominem attack.

Quote:
Every time I get into an argument about how deluded and misbehaved some Mormons are, I get to point to Loran's fine example when I'm told Mormons do no such thing.


That's the problem, Graham, you have no idea how to actually argue in a philosophical manner. All you really ever are is merely argumentative.

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:53 pm 
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Droopy,

You are confusing not being anti-Mormon with actually being LDS.

By the definition implied in the questions above, everyone who doesn't believe in the restoration is "anti-Mormon," in which case we are condemned to live in a world in which 99.95% of the population is anti-Mormon, God help us.

Jack isn't Mormon; that doesn't make her anti-Mormon anymore than your not being Hindu makes you an anti-Hindu.



I'll wait to see Jack's response to the questions asked. She has avoided, in the past, clear positions on unambiguous doctrinal claims, enough at least, to ask for CFR's against any claim of negative analysis of church concepts. The above questions can be considered as representing central, and at the very least, settled, established truth claims within the Church's overall theological system.

She appears to claim to be, in some sense, at least non-anti-Mormon. Her behavior in the now infamous Will "dogpile" megathread causes me to wax dubious. How much neutrality is possible here? I don't mean to assert that anything not pro-LDS is, by definition, anti-LDS. However, I do not fully subscribe to Jack's rather diffuse and vague denials of intellectual hostility to the Church and its key concepts, given her past history.

Her views of Joseph Smith's plural marriages is, as those things go, little different, if a bit updated perhaps, than classic Fawn Brodie or any number of critics who are, by any definition "anti-Mormon."

I'll wait and see what develops.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:17 am 
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Quote:
I understand that sometimes in the heat of these online discussions we sometimes let some things fly that aren't what we would say in our calmer and more reflective moments. I'm going to guess that your calling Jack an anti-Mormon was made in the heat of discussion, rather than being really thought through.

Know, in either case, that making Jack out to be an anti-Mormon would be a very, very, very hard sell. Perhaps you aren't aware that Jack went to BYU, and is married to a Latter-day Saint? I've known her online for seven or eight years, used to chat with her frequently on ZLMB, and have spoken with her in person. And in my experience Jack is very fair and charitable. While being devoutly part of Evangelical Christianity, a faith of which so many of the adherents are anti-Mormon, she has managed to be a friend to Latter-day Saints. Would that all Evangelical Christians were as "anti-Mormon" as Jack!


I appreciate your personal anecdotes and feelings toward Jack, and certainly you have more experience with her than I do. However, my core experience of her, at least as an internet personality, has been her utterly egregious defamation of Will Schryver.

I am not, by any means, the only member of the online apologetics community who views her, after that experience, which was, frankly, among the worst witch hunts I've ever seen among LDS critics that I actually know (in cyberspace) in over a decade online, in a less than warm and fuzzy light.

There's no point in going over all of it, as you are probably already aware of the gist of most of it, and the original thread in which this debacle developed, and in which Will had several core defenders, among which I myself, ran out to many pages and was wholly personal in nature for the duration of the meltdown.

I've been attacked (not by Jack) by others here in a similar manner, though not with in any sense the vehemence demonstrated in that instance. Jack was at the center of that storm. No one, including me, has exonerated Will for using, on rare occasions, some rough language regarding individual woman he finds particularly unlikeable. But he's also done the same to men here who have really irritated him. So have I. So have others.

The whole "misogyny" claim I consider to be nothing more than a libel, and a deeply tendentious, if not mendacious one at that.

The whole episode bore all the marks of a well orchestrated political smear campaign against a opposition candidate or public intellectual, with all the ugly implications inherent in such behavior outside the Church.

As I say, I'll just wait and see where it goes. Perhaps I'll just let her speak for herself, if she will, in a clear and concise manner regarding her views of the Church, and not let her behavior as part of the anti-Will "posse" here color my biases as much.

But that may not be as easy said as done.

Loran.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:21 am 
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Hi Again Droopy,

It's part of the definition of not believing in Mormonism that one would not believe in the literal reality of Joseph Smith's experiences with God the Father, the resurrected Moroni, and various resurrected biblical figures. If Jack were to answer your questions, this would not prove that she is anti-Mormon, only that she is not Mormon, something on which I believe all are presently agreed.

Note also that criticism of, and even an attack against, a particular Mormon doesn't make someone anti-Mormon. If it did, many LDS apologists on the boards would be anti-Mormon for their screed against their fellow LDS who propound the Heartland geography model, like Rodney Meldrum; and anyone who campaigns against Romney or Huntsman would also be "anti-Mormon" even if their opposition to these candidates had nothing to do with their religion.

If you want to think that Jack's interaction with Will, who is LDS, overrides in importance her relationship with her husband, who is also LDS, or her cordial relationships with a great number of other Latter-day Saints, you are welcome to think that. But opposition to a particular Mormon seems an exceedingly strange basis for labeling someone "anti-Mormon" on the whole.

Let Jack alone and spend your time jousting with actual anti-Mormons.

Cheers,

Don

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:07 am 
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I can not thank you enough for the timeliness of your response, Don. Have just recently---in fact, moments ago---endured an attack in which my scholarly interests and political positions were taken to be not just indicative of mere anti-Mormonism, but in fact commensurate with complete lack of intelligence and human decency has left me non-plussed to say the least. A defense of Mormonism that trades in quips about "nipple clamps" and "butt plugs" would make T.B.H Stenhouse blush and probably send Jedediah Grant to an earlier grave.

Perhaps it is too early to hope for a seismic shift in Mormon history scholarship. I think I see a few camps on the horizon, I pray they are not mirages. The blustering maneuvers of Mopologetics 1.0., grounded as they've always been in sheer spitefulness, may soon be buried in the geological strata of new formations of history. Let's hope all that rich topsoil yields bushels of cross-pollinated and nourishing produce.

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Last edited by Blixa on Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:19 am 
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Blixa wrote:
I can not thank you enough for the timeliness of your response, Don. Have just recently---in fact, moments ago---endured an attack in which my scholarly interests and political positions were taken to be not just indicative of mere anti-Mormonism, but in fact commensurate with complete lack of intelligence and human decency has left me non-plussed to say the least.


Exactly and precisely what you initiated against me and the way you have treated me in every exchange we've ever had.

Stop your sniveling. And, as I recall, its against the board rules here to whine about what was said in the chat room, as no evidence remains of the claims made.

Quote:
A defense of Mormonism that trades in quips about "nipple clamps" and "butt plugs" would make T.B.H Stenhouse blush and probably send Jedediah Grant to an earlier grave.


Scratch initiated the vulgar discourse about the butt plugs, to bait me into a free for all with him, while others were posting photos of gay pornography and temple garments. Your juvenile glee at all this was noted, as was that of others. I did not ask him. I responded by asking him about his nipple clamps. Tsk, tsk. Cut and thrust. You appear to be of the same six legged species as Scratch, and perhaps living under the same baseboard.

Can't resist, can you? Yes, all your "intellect."

Worthless, in the end.

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:52 am 
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viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13285&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=msjack

While I take Don's perspectives on MsJack in the spirit in which they are given, the above thread can be pursued for some context and background to my own views.

Several things stand out here. The first is that I am not at all the only one to have developed precisely the same perceptions of both her views of the Church and her general demeanor toward those who defend it.

Secondly, a pattern emerges in this thread, which will certainly be present in others, in which Jack is confronted with her own words and arguments, backpedals leaving a trail of smarmy ad hominems in her wake, all the while crying foul and attempting to sit of the fence above the fray as an objective observer, taking strong positions at the outset, but then interpreting those positions as nothing more than bland, disinterested asides when challenged.

One poster here even mentions here feminist inclinations, and their relevance to here criticism of the Church. Her response to me when I noticed this a while back? To deny any feminist ideology in her personal philosophy. Everyone who disagrees with her is wrong about disagreeing with her. Nothing she says is ever actually what she was perceived to have said. The pattern seems to repeat. Take a strong position in the beginning from a specific perspective, and then, when challenged, retreat to a position of vague disinterest without a clear ideological or philosophical base.

I've called her "anti-Mormon." bc asserts she is an "intellectually dishonest Tannerite." Yahoo bot implies a leaning toward "feminist theology." Yahoo bot again speaks of her "blogging amongst all your feminist ex-LDS apostates." In each case, she will deny each and every perception, and yet, in each case, multiple people have come to the same conclusions about her own philosophcial leanings. Clearly, at some point along the line, its going to dawn on one that perhaps she is creating these impressions herself.

Everyone who deals with her seems to come away with the same impression: intellectual integrity issues, hostile to the LDS religion, feminist, secularistic, and comfortable with the general disaffected ex-Mormon perspective common in this forum. She denies each charge, and calls you an idiot, or stupid, for expressing them.

Fly, meet ointment?

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


Last edited by Droopy on Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:08 am 
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Jack's classic feminist approach to criticism of the Church can be seen here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12771&p=317900&hilit=msjack#p317900

This is, of course, the same old proportional representation mentality seen within the secular world among the ideological feminist Left and the rest of the civil rights grievance culture. Much of it also displays a substantial lack of understanding of LDS doctrine and philosophy, not to mention appearing to be fairly overwrought (I've known many sister missionaries, in different wards. Loads of them. They're not as prevalent as males in the field, but then, without the egalitarian "proportional representation" mentality that seeks equality above quality, there is no reason to expect such).

When you talk like Naomi Wolf, one suspects similar ideological tendencies. When you deny them, but keep talking in the same way within the same intellectual categories, people begin to suspect you are playing a game.

But Jack is not a feminist, not a leftist, and not anti-Mormon.

Jack is the un-Mormon.

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Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Schryver from Kinderhook Bomb
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:53 am 
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gf

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- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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