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 Post subject: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:40 am 
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I just read this. It seemed like something that might strike a nerve on this board.

I read down the posts and didn't see anything else about it. My apologies if someone else has previously posted it:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/16/charles-negy-reddit-letter-to-students_n_1789406.html?utm_hp_ref=science&ir=Science

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We are not in class to learn “facts” and simply regurgitate the facts in a mindless way to items on a test. Critical thinking is a skill that develops over time. Independent thinking does not occur overnight. Critical thinkers are open to having their cherished beliefs challenged, and must learn how to “defend” their views based on evidence or logic, rather than simply “pounding their chest” and merely proclaiming that their views are “valid.” One characteristic of the critical, independent thinker is being able to recognize fantasy versus reality; to recognize the difference between personal beliefs which are nothing more than personal beliefs, versus views that are grounded in evidence, or which have no evidence.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:48 am 
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Last edited by Hasa Diga Eebowai on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:58 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:07 am 
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Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:

Interesting post Quasi and something I've been thinking about recently. I think having our views challenged is a productive thing that helps us to learn. If views aren't defendable then they deserve to be questioned and rejected. Still, it is easy to get personally involved in views and to pound our chest rather than defending them based on the evidence.

Thanks for the thought provoking post and I haven't seen you post recently, hope life is treating you well.

Hasa Diga Eebowai


Thanks for noticing, Hasa! Work, home improvements and a recent fall on my back porch into a large plant pot (two cracked ribs) have slowed my responses (typing has been a little painful). I hope to speed up participation.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:10 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Hasa Diga Eebowai wrote:

Interesting post Quasi and something I've been thinking about recently. I think having our views challenged is a productive thing that helps us to learn. If views aren't defendable then they deserve to be questioned and rejected. Still, it is easy to get personally involved in views and to pound our chest rather than defending them based on the evidence.

Thanks for the thought provoking post and I haven't seen you post recently, hope life is treating you well.

Hasa Diga Eebowai


Thanks for noticing, Hasa! Work, home improvements and a recent fall on my back porch into a large plant pot (two cracked ribs) have slowed my responses (typing has been a little painful). I hope to speed up participation.


Quasi, you could of gone for "injured line backing for the Dolphins, fell when climbing Everest, damaged when fighting four would be muggers etc. Plant pot...

If you fancy trying a white have you had a go at a chilled Columbard?

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:11 am 
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PrickKicker wrote:
If there was a rating system, you'd get a thumbs up, like, +1 Whatever from me.

I am, the GREAT I AM, by mindless repetition creates lots of mini-mes.


Thanks PickKniker! I don't think I have said "Hi" to you yet. Good to see you here! I appreciate the thumbs up, but in this case I think it goes to the professor.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:15 am 
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Last edited by Hasa Diga Eebowai on Mon Jul 14, 2014 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:26 am 
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It goes without saying that I wasn't there, but this professor does not strike me as my kind of guy.

"There is no topic that is 'off-limits' for us to address in class, if even only remotely related to the course topic."

It would appear that "that Christianity is the most valid religion" if off-limits.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:39 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Quasi, you could of gone for "injured line backing for the Dolphins, fell when climbing Everest, damaged when fighting four would be muggers etc. Plant pot...

If you fancy trying a white have you had a go at a chilled Columbard?


The patio fall is just my cover story. They're actually shrapnel wounds from my secret mission to Afghanistan (don't tell anyone).

On the far left coast of California Columbard tends to be a generic name for 'cheap' white wine. Usually very low in cost and not very interesting (comes in jugs). I'm sure the selections you have around your home are much better. I do occasionally sip some very fruity and crisp Sauvignon Blancs that may be similar to what you are drinking.

I'm going to have a glass of a decent Cab right now. It's a little early for me, but I'm using the shrapnel wounds as an excuse.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:43 am 
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Quasimodo wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Quasi, you could've gone for "injured line backing for the Dolphins, fell when climbing Everest, damaged when fighting four would be muggers etc. Plant pot...

If you fancy trying a white have you had a go at a chilled Columbard?


The patio fall is just my cover story. They're actually shrapnel wounds from my secret mission to Afghanistan (don't tell anyone).

On the far left coast of California Columbard tends to be a generic name for 'cheap' white wine. Usually very low in cost and not very interesting (comes in jugs). I'm sure the selections you have around your home are much better. I do occasionally sip some very fruity and crisp Sauvignon Blancs that may be similar to what you are drinking.

I'm going to have a glass of a decent Cab right now. It's a little early for me, but I'm using the shrapnel wounds as an excuse.


:biggrin:

Its actually been very warm here in Blighty these last few weeks and I've been dabbling with Magners - both apple and pear varieties, with ice. Refreshing.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 12:27 pm 
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lulu wrote:
It goes without saying that I wasn't there, but this professor does not strike me as my kind of guy.

"There is no topic that is 'off-limits' for us to address in class, if even only remotely related to the course topic."

It would appear that "that Christianity is the most valid religion" if off-limits.


I think you and Professor Negy may be in agreement. It seems to me that he was not attempting to ban discussion of any religion. Only trying to widen the views of those who could not accept any alternative to their own beliefs.

Quote:
The male student who stood up in class and directed the rest of the class to “not participate” by not responding to my challenge, represented the worst of education. For starters, the idea that a person—student or instructor—would instruct other students on how to behave, is pretty arrogant and grossly disrespects the rights of other students who can and want to think for themselves and decide for themselves whether they want to engage in the exchange of ideas or not. Moreover, this “let's just put our fingers in our ears so we will not hear what we disagree with” is appallingly childish and exemplifies “anti-intellectualism.” The purpose of a university is to engage in dialogue, debate, and exchange ideas in order to try and come to some meaningful conclusion about an issue at hand. Not to shut ourselves off from ideas we find threatening.


He was not trying to curtail discussion. He was only trying to dissuade others from curtailing discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
lulu wrote:
It goes without saying that I wasn't there, but this professor does not strike me as my kind of guy.

"There is no topic that is 'off-limits' for us to address in class, if even only remotely related to the course topic."

It would appear that "that Christianity is the most valid religion" if off-limits.


I think you and Professor Negy may be in agreement. It seems to me that he was not attempting to ban discussion of any religion. Only trying to widen the views of those who could not accept any alternative to their own beliefs.

Quote:
The male student who stood up in class and directed the rest of the class to “not participate” by not responding to my challenge, represented the worst of education. For starters, the idea that a person—student or instructor—would instruct other students on how to behave, is pretty arrogant and grossly disrespects the rights of other students who can and want to think for themselves and decide for themselves whether they want to engage in the exchange of ideas or not. Moreover, this “let's just put our fingers in our ears so we will not hear what we disagree with” is appallingly childish and exemplifies “anti-intellectualism.” The purpose of a university is to engage in dialogue, debate, and exchange ideas in order to try and come to some meaningful conclusion about an issue at hand. Not to shut ourselves off from ideas we find threatening.


He was not trying to curtail discussion. He was only trying to dissuade others from curtailing discussion.


That's the impression I got as well. He seems perfectly open to discussing if Christianity is the most valid religion. He is frustrated by people "simply 'pounding their chest' and merely proclaiming that their views are 'valid.'" It's the same frustration one gets when trying to discuss the controversial issues of mormonnism with a TBM that plugs his ears and chants "I know the church is true." He is just teaching critical thinking skills here.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
lulu wrote:
It goes without saying that I wasn't there, but this professor does not strike me as my kind of guy.

"There is no topic that is 'off-limits' for us to address in class, if even only remotely related to the course topic."

It would appear that "that Christianity is the most valid religion" if off-limits.


I think you and Professor Negy may be in agreement. It seems to me that he was not attempting to ban discussion of any religion. Only trying to widen the views of those who could not accept any alternative to their own beliefs.

Quote:
The male student who stood up in class and directed the rest of the class to “not participate” by not responding to my challenge, represented the worst of education. For starters, the idea that a person—student or instructor—would instruct other students on how to behave, is pretty arrogant and grossly disrespects the rights of other students who can and want to think for themselves and decide for themselves whether they want to engage in the exchange of ideas or not. Moreover, this “let's just put our fingers in our ears so we will not hear what we disagree with” is appallingly childish and exemplifies “anti-intellectualism.” The purpose of a university is to engage in dialogue, debate, and exchange ideas in order to try and come to some meaningful conclusion about an issue at hand. Not to shut ourselves off from ideas we find threatening.


He was not trying to curtail discussion. He was only trying to dissuade others from curtailing discussion.


"Students in my class who openly proclaimed that Christianity is the most valid religion, as some of you did last class, portrayed precisely what religious bigotry is."

1. I would never say that.
2. I don't think it is true.
3. It is a statement that makes the issue of Christianity being the most valid religion off-limits, contradicting his nothing is off-limits declaration.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Hello, Cross-Cultural students, I am writing to express my views on how some of you have conducted yourself in this university course you are taking with me. It is not uncommon for some-to-many American students, who typically, are first-generation college students, to not fully understand, and maybe not even appreciate the purpose of a university. Some students erroneously believe a university is just an extension of high school, where students are spoon-fed “soft” topics and dilemmas to confront, regurgitate the “right” answers on exams (right answers as deemed by the instructor or a textbook), and then move on to the next course.
Not only is this not the purpose of a university (although it may feel like it is in some of your other courses), it clearly is not the purpose of my upper-division course on Cross-Cultural Psychology. The purpose of a university, and my course in particular, is to struggle intellectually with some of life's most difficult topics that may not have one right answer, and try to come to some conclusion about what may be “the better answer” (It typically is not the case that all views are equally valid; some views are more defensible than others). Another purpose of a university, and my course in particular, is to engage in open discussion in order to critically examine beliefs, behaviors, and customs. Finally, another purpose of a university education is to help students who typically are not accustomed to thinking independently or applying a critical analysis to views or beliefs, to start learning how to do so. We are not in class to learn “facts” and simply regurgitate the facts in a mindless way to items on a test. Critical thinking is a skill that develops over time. Independent thinking does not occur overnight. Critical thinkers are open to having their cherished beliefs challenged, and must learn how to “defend” their views based on evidence or logic, rather than simply “pounding their chest” and merely proclaiming that their views are “valid.” One characteristic of the critical, independent thinker is being able to recognize fantasy versus reality; to recognize the difference between personal beliefs which are nothing more than personal beliefs, versus views that are grounded in evidence, or which have no evidence.

Last class meeting and for 15 minutes today, we addressed “religious bigotry.” Several points are worth contemplating:
Religion and culture go “hand in hand.” For some cultures, they are so intertwined that it is difficult to know with certainty if a specific belief or custom is “cultural” or “religious” in origin. The student in class tonight who proclaimed that my class was supposed to be about different cultures (and not religion) lacks an understanding about what constitutes “culture.” (of course, I think her real agenda was to stop my comments about religion).

Students in my class who openly proclaimed that Christianity is the most valid religion, as some of you did last class, portrayed precisely what religious bigotry is. Bigots—racial bigot or religious bigots—never question their prejudices and bigotry. They are convinced their beliefs are correct. For the Christians in my class who argued the validity of Christianity last week, I suppose I should thank you for demonstrating to the rest of the class what religious arrogance and bigotry looks like. It seems to have not even occurred to you (I'm directing this comment to those students who manifested such bigotry), as I tried to point out in class tonight, how such bigotry is perceived and experienced by the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddhists, the non-believers, and so on, in class, to have to sit and endure the tyranny of the masses (the dominant group, that is, which in this case, are Christians).

The male student who stood up in class and directed the rest of the class to “not participate” by not responding to my challenge, represented the worst of education. For starters, the idea that a person—student or instructor—would instruct other students on how to behave, is pretty arrogant and grossly disrespects the rights of other students who can and want to think for themselves and decide for themselves whether they want to engage in the exchange of ideas or not. Moreover, this “let's just put our fingers in our ears so we will not hear what we disagree with” is appallingly childish and exemplifies “anti-intellectualism.” The purpose of a university is to engage in dialogue, debate, and exchange ideas in order to try and come to some meaningful conclusion about an issue at hand. Not to shut ourselves off from ideas we find threatening.

Universities hold a special place in society where scholarly-minded folks can come together and discuss controversial, polemic, and often uncomfortable topics. Universities, including UCF, have special policies in place to protect our (both professors’ and students’) freedom to express ourselves. Neither students nor professors have a right to censor speech that makes us uncomfortable. We're adults. We're at a university. There is no topic that is “off-limits” for us to address in class, if even only remotely related to the course topic. I hope you will digest this message, and just as important, will take it to heart as it may apply to you.

Charles Negy

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:37 pm 
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lulu wrote:
1. I would never say that.
2. I don't think it is true.
3. It is a statement that makes the issue of Christianity being the most valid religion off-limits, contradicting his nothing is off-limits declaration.


I think it only does so if the students refuse to engage in dialogue. The key problem here is that there is no discussion happening. The students shut it down by refusing to participate. Had they engaged in a debate over the definition of religious bigotry, then it is likely this letter would have never been written. As it stands, there is still the opportunity to have that discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:40 pm 
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lulu wrote:
"Students in my class who openly proclaimed that Christianity is the most valid religion, as some of you did last class, portrayed precisely what religious bigotry is."

1. I would never say that.
2. I don't think it is true.
3. It is a statement that makes the issue of Christianity being the most valid religion off-limits, contradicting his nothing is off-limits declaration.


I think you may be still missing his point. Here's the quote from a student that he found most objectionable.
Quote:
The male student who stood up in class and directed the rest of the class to “not participate” by not responding to my challenge, represented the worst of education.


I don't think he was trying to drown out this boys religious views. Only this boys call for the class to not participate because it offended his views. The Professor was being reasonable. The boy was being a jerk.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 1:58 pm 
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In the first few minutes of the first session of my first philosophy class in collage the Professor (after introducing himself) said that anyone who could not at least accept the possibility that God does not exist should consider dropping the class.

A few did. The rest stayed. He was a great teacher and it was a great class.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:
In the first few minutes of the first session of my first philosophy class in collage the Professor (after introducing himself) said that anyone who could not at least accept the possibility that God does not exist should consider dropping the class.



No wonder my mom thinks philosophy class is DANGEROUS! (and liberal arts departments/schools)

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:21 pm 
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just me wrote:
Quasimodo wrote:
In the first few minutes of the first session of my first philosophy class in collage the Professor (after introducing himself) said that anyone who could not at least accept the possibility that God does not exist should consider dropping the class.



No wonder my mom thinks philosophy class is DANGEROUS! (and liberal arts departments/schools)


Maybe you should consider buying your Mom an adult education course in philosophy. :smile:

I am always amused when religious people say that education is dangerous. As though they don't have the ability to make up their own minds about what is taught. It's as though truth will ruin their faith in some diabolic way.

I guess you don't have to be ignorant to be religious, but it helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Quasimodo wrote:

I guess you don't have to be ignorant to be religious, but it helps.


Quasi -- A large number in China could be considered to be non-religious. Would you consider them to be less ignorant than the denizens of a religious country like the US?

Same question for Soviet-Era Russia.


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 Post subject: Re: Professor, Says Students Showed 'Religious Arrogance'.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 2:46 pm 
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3 things never to put in the same statement

1. Christianity is the most valid religion
2. Bigots
3. you can't tell evidence from fantasy

The guy has no horse sense.

even tenured professors can have problems

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/1 ... 89828.html

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