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 Post subject: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:07 pm 
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The attitude of apologists can be represented on a two-dimensional scale. The first dimension has to do with the tension that exists between loyalty to the truth and loyalty to the church. If an apologist is a sycophant to the general authorities and would never publically admit that the church has blemishes or that non-believers have some good reasons for not believing, then they are excessively loyal to the church. In contrast, if they freely admit it when they perceive critics having a good point, then they are loyal to the truth. Note that being loyal to the truth doesn’t mean that they are disloyal to the church, it just means that they aren’t willing to be deceptive in order to make a point, and have the intellectual integrity to call a spade a spade when the church is less than perfect.

The second dimension has to do with what they love. If they love to fight, they are on the left-hand side of this scale. If they love people, they are on the right-hand side.

Putting the two dimensions together results in a graph like the following:

Image

Some notes:
Quadrant I contains apologists who are loyal to the truth and who love people. consiglieri is the personification of this quadrant.

Quadrant II is for people who love the truth, but also love to fight. In the days when Kevin Graham was an apologist, this was his space.

Quadrant III is for people who are loyal to the church and love to fight. This quadrant is crowded.

Quadrant IV is for people who are loyal to the hierarchy, but love people. Most active Mormons are in this quadrant, but being in this space doesn’t lend itself to apologetics. They are loyal to the church, so why waste time studying Mormonism when they could be living it? They love people and don’t like fighting. Apologetics offers little to this personality type. With some irony, I put Daniel Peterson here. In his earlier years I think he was definitely in Quadrant III, and while he still has his moments, it seems he has shifted over this way.

Quadrant III apologists absolutely hate their polar opposites in Quadrant I.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:12 pm 
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Pretty good analysis.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Thank you, Analytics. That is a spot-on analysis.

When will you be plotting critics?

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Pretty good. I would put Kevin farther to the left, though. He loves fighting at least as much as Will Schryver.

The problem with plotting something like this for critics is identifying some kind of hierarchy for them to be loyal to. I guess you could shift it to say there are some critics who concede well-earned points to the church, and some who are consumed by hate and won't give an inch. So the hierarchy is hate?

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:35 pm 
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The Dude wrote:
Pretty good. I would put Kevin farther to the left, though. He loves fighting at least as much as Will Schryver.


touché!

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:41 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
Thank you, Analytics. That is a spot-on analysis.

When will you be plotting critics?

If I come up with a model I will. Trying to figure out critics really isn't on my mind much.

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from an email exchange with Louis DeBroux:
http://kudzumollymormon.blogspot.com/20 ... rsary.html


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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 9:10 pm 
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The Dude wrote:
The problem with plotting something like this for critics is identifying some kind of hierarchy for them to be loyal to. I guess you could shift it to say there are some critics who concede well-earned points to the church, and some who are consumed by hate and won't give an inch.


Yes.

Quote:
So the hierarchy is hate?


I think that's a fair assessment of what drives critics to a greater or lesser degree.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:03 pm 
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Maybe we could make a list of which Bible stories were most influential in anyone's life.

The Good Samaritan: Enuma Elish
The Sheep and the Goats: Will Schryver
Jesus cleanses the temple: Pahoran
Kiss of Judas: Kevin Graham
Just kidding. Woes of the Pharisees: Kevin Graham
...

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 11:12 pm 
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The problem I have with the chart is that it implies that love of the truth and loyalty to the hierarchy are diametrically opposed as are love people and love fighting. However, it could be read as the relative importance one places on each. Yet, that misses the relative importance one places on say, loyal to hierarcy vs love of fighting.

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Last edited by asbestosman on Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:12 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Jesus cleanses the temple: Pahoran
...


So you decided eliminate

1. A Plague upon the Nile
2. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

as possible choices for this one, eh?

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:26 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
The problem I have with the chart is that it implies that love of the truth and loyalty to the hierarchy are diametrically opposed as are love people and love fighting.

And the implication is 100% correct in actual practice.

EXCELLENT CHART, Analytics! Your username is most appropriate. I too find your chart to be spot-on.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:44 am 
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Asbestosman, I also agree that the "Love of Truth" vs. "Love of the Church" thing is a zero-sum game. A person can love the truth, a lot, and yet if they love the church more, that will rule their arguments and approach to apologetics. It's a simple vector sum of these two values on Analytics' scale.

I think Dan Peterson is one of those who by nature loves truth, but loves the church just a little bit more.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:09 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
The problem I have with the chart is that it implies that love of the truth and loyalty to the hierarchy are diametrically opposed as are love people and love fighting. However, it could be read as the relative importance one places on each. Yet, that misses the relative importance one places on say, loyal to hierarcy vs love of fighting.

I knew this would be the biggest objection and thought a bit about whether or not this scale is appropriate, and even makes sense. In the end, I think it is. My point with this isn't that loyalty to the church and to the truth are opposites, but rather, it has to do with how you deal with the tension between the church and the truth when it arises. When somebody like Will tells somebody like Consig that they are high risks for apostasy, what he is saying is that Consig is more loyal to the truth than to the church. They see it too.

On those rare occasions when I make a good point, I can count on Type I apologists to acknowledge it if they see it, but I would never get a Type III apologist to concede anything, ever.

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-Dr. Thomas Sowell
from an email exchange with Louis DeBroux:
http://kudzumollymormon.blogspot.com/20 ... rsary.html


Working Men of All Countries, Unite!
-Karl Marx


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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:32 am 
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The Nehor wrote:
The Dude wrote:
The problem with plotting something like this for critics is identifying some kind of hierarchy for them to be loyal to. I guess you could shift it to say there are some critics who concede well-earned points to the church, and some who are consumed by hate and won't give an inch.


Yes.

Quote:
So the hierarchy is hate?


I think that's a fair assessment of what drives critics to a greater or lesser degree.


That parameter on one end for apologists is 'Loyalty to Truth' and on the other 'Loyalty to Hierarchy'. I think that parameter would work just fine for plotting critics. After all, Analytics found a spot for and plotted Kevin.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:38 am 
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You're wasting your time responding to Nehor, sock puppet:

The Nehor wrote:
I did once a long time ago contribute useful things on this board. I learned that in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is considered a loon. So I put on clown shoes and a red nose to fit the part.


He just doesn't care. He's too weak and stupid to formulate decent responses to criticisms of the Church, so he's retreated into this endless, nebbish Bozo role.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:40 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
The problem I have with the chart is that it implies that love of the truth and loyalty to the hierarchy are diametrically opposed as are love people and love fighting. However, it could be read as the relative importance one places on each. Yet, that misses the relative importance one places on say, loyal to hierarcy vs love of fighting.

With all organizations, there are situations where truth and loyalty are in harmony. With all organizations, there are situations where truth and loyalty must diverge. I see Analytics parameter as one differentiating apologists based on their conduct when faced with those divergences.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 8:49 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
You're wasting your time responding to Nehor, sock puppet:

The Nehor wrote:
I did once a long time ago contribute useful things on this board. I learned that in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is considered a loon. So I put on clown shoes and a red nose to fit the part.


He just doesn't care. He's too weak and stupid to formulate decent responses to criticisms of the Church, so he's retreated into this endless, nebbish Bozo role.

Thanks for the advice, Dr Scratch. Sage wisdom, as always.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:46 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
The problem I have with the chart is that it implies that love of the truth and loyalty to the hierarchy are diametrically opposed as are love people and love fighting. However, it could be read as the relative importance one places on each. Yet, that misses the relative importance one places on say, loyal to hierarcy vs love of fighting.

With all organizations, there are situations where truth and loyalty are in harmony. With all organizations, there are situations where truth and loyalty must diverge. I see Analytics parameter as one differentiating apologists based on their conduct when faced with those divergences.

You said that well--that is in fact my point.

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from an email exchange with Louis DeBroux:
http://kudzumollymormon.blogspot.com/20 ... rsary.html


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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:10 pm 
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Analytics wrote:
My point with this isn't that loyalty to the church and to the truth are opposites, but rather, it has to do with how you deal with the tension between the church and the truth when it arises.
When does it arise? In practice, this does not happen. The prophets and apostles may very well make mistakes, but they never lead us astray. Loving the truth and being loyal to the church are one and the same. Always.

Quote:
When somebody like Will tells somebody like Consig that they are high risks for apostasy, what he is saying is that Consig is more loyal to the truth than to the church. They see it too.

No he isn't. Will does not think Consig is too loyal to the truth. I'd venture to say Will views it as quite the opposite in fact.

That aside, it does raise the point that sometimes our perception of truth is different than what the truth really is. Which are you measuring? If it's perception of the truth, then I agree that tension can and does arise.

Quote:
On those rare occasions when I make a good point, I can count on Type I apologists to acknowledge it if they see it, but I would never get a Type III apologist to concede anything, ever.

I don't see what conceding a good point has to do with loyalty to the church. Last I checked, the church doesn't frown on admitting something that's obviously true. I can, however, see what not conceding points has to do with love of fighting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:15 pm 
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moksha wrote:
asbestosman wrote:
Jesus cleanses the temple: Pahoran
...


So you decided eliminate

1. A Plague upon the Nile
2. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse

as possible choices for this one, eh?


The four horsemen of the Apocalypse is shared by Pahoran, Will, Scott, and Daniel Peterson.

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 Post subject: Re: The Four Types of Apologists
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:20 pm 
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asbestosman wrote:
The four horsemen of the Apocalypse is shared by Pahoran, Will, Scott, and Daniel Peterson.

A terrifying quartet indeed!

Even Nathan Bedford Forrest would turn tail and run.

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