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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:49 am 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Do you consider it hate speech to say that all Mormons are corrupt?

Do you consider it hate speech to say that all non-Mormons are corrupt?

Are these claims different in any way other than the target of criticism?



I'm not going to bite the bait of your false dichotomy, DoaM.

It is hate speech and action to publish, pamphleteer, publicly speak, or protest a faith group.


So you'd consider it hate speech to publicly condemn, for instance, the Westborough Baptist Church?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:51 am 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Which is what Joseph Smith did, right?


Ah, this popular anti-Mormon gem again.

The answer is no, DoaM. Joseph Smith did not publish, pamphleteer, protest, or publicly speak out against anyone's faith.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:55 am 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
Which is what Joseph Smith did, right?


Ah, this popular anti-Mormon gem again.

The answer is no, DoaM. Joseph Smith did not publish, pamphleteer, protest, or publicly speak out against anyone's faith.


He didn't say that all who profess other religions are corrupt? He never publicly criticized other religions?

ETA: This seems critical to me:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:00 am 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
He didn't say that all who profess other religions are corrupt? He never publicly criticized other religions?

ETA: This seems critical to me:

I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those bprofessors were all ccorrupt; that: “they ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the gpower thereof.”


He was quoting God. Are you suggesting he should change what God said to avoid offense?

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:05 am 
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The Nehor wrote:

He was quoting God. Are you suggesting he should change what God said to avoid offense?


Putting aside the question of whether he really did hear from God or not, Simon's claim was that Smith never publicly criticized other religions, which is clearly not true.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 11:47 am 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Ah, this popular anti-Mormon gem again.

The answer is no, DoaM. Joseph Smith did not publish, pamphleteer, protest, or publicly speak out against anyone's faith.


It's weird that you would claim that this is an "anti-Mormon gem". If Mormonism is true, we would EXPECT that Joseph Smith would publicly criticize other faiths, since all other faiths are wrong. And, of course, it is well-documented that he did. So no, it isn't an "anti-Mormon gem" at all. It is an anti-Simon gem because in your zeal to be right at all times, you quite often trip yourself up and instead of acknowledging your error and defending the faith, you will say indefensible things that make your Mormon faith look even more ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:05 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
It's weird that you would claim that this is an "anti-Mormon gem". If Mormonism is true, we would EXPECT that Joseph Smith would publicly criticize other faiths, since all other faiths are wrong. And, of course, it is well-documented that he did. So no, it isn't an "anti-Mormon gem" at all. It is an anti-Simon gem because in your zeal to be right at all times, you quite often trip yourself up and instead of acknowledging your error and defending the faith, you will say indefensible things that make your Mormon faith look even more ridiculous.

LOL --
welcome to the zany world of Mormon apologetics DofaM. Reason is suspended in that world.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:48 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:

It's weird that you would claim that this is an "anti-Mormon gem". If Mormonism is true, we would EXPECT that Joseph Smith would publicly criticize other faiths, since all other faiths are wrong. And, of course, it is well-documented that he did. So no, it isn't an "anti-Mormon gem" at all. It is an anti-Simon gem because in your zeal to be right at all times, you quite often trip yourself up and instead of acknowledging your error and defending the faith, you will say indefensible things that make your Mormon faith look even more ridiculous.


We don't believe all other faiths are wrong. We believe all faiths that do good in the world have certain measures of truth. If you read the passage you quoted, I'll bet you can figure out what God is saying to Joseph Smith: Hint: creeds, not other faiths, are an abomination in His sight. Another hint: The professors are all corrupt means the professors that were involved with Joseph Smith in his immediate area.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:

We don't believe all other faiths are wrong. We believe all faiths that do good in the world have certain measures of truth. If you read the passage you quoted, I'll bet you can figure out what God is saying to Joseph Smith: Hint: creeds, not other faiths, are an abomination in His sight. Another hint: The professors are all corrupt means the professors that were involved with Joseph Smith in his immediate area.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:06 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Dad of a Mormon wrote:

It's weird that you would claim that this is an "anti-Mormon gem". If Mormonism is true, we would EXPECT that Joseph Smith would publicly criticize other faiths, since all other faiths are wrong. And, of course, it is well-documented that he did. So no, it isn't an "anti-Mormon gem" at all. It is an anti-Simon gem because in your zeal to be right at all times, you quite often trip yourself up and instead of acknowledging your error and defending the faith, you will say indefensible things that make your Mormon faith look even more ridiculous.


We don't believe all other faiths are wrong. We believe all faiths that do good in the world have certain measures of truth. If you read the passage you quoted, I'll bet you can figure out what God is saying to Joseph Smith: Hint: creeds, not other faiths, are an abomination in His sight. Another hint: The professors are all corrupt means the professors that were involved with Joseph Smith in his immediate area.


"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong..."

He continues by saying that their creeds were abominable, etc., but that was after he stated clearly that all other faiths were wrong. No, it says nothing about professors "in his immediate area." And he did publicly claim that other religions are wrong, even claiming that he was persecuted for saying so.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:18 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong..."

He continues by saying that their creeds were abominable, etc., but that was after he stated clearly that all other faiths were wrong. No, it says nothing about professors "in his immediate area." And he did publicly claim that other religions are wrong, even claiming that he was persecuted for saying so.


This is one of those cases in which the LDS church's teachings have moderated considerably since the early days. As long as I've been alive, the church has taught that all faiths have some truth and has refrained from the kind of criticism earlier church leaders reserved for other Christian religions. Even as recently as 20 years ago, the church taught that Christian ministers were in the employ of Satan to deceive the righteous with the philosophies of men mingled with scripture.

That's certainly a positive development, in my book. Simon's take on the First Vision is an improvement on earlier teachings.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:26 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
That's certainly a positive development, in my book. Simon's take on the First Vision is an improvement on earlier teachings.


As a non-Mormon, I must say I feel somewhat conflicted here, in the same way I am conflicted about the Church's racism. Yes, it is in many ways a positive development that the church is attempting to be somewhat more tolerant than it was in the past. But at the same time, it has to distort its history to do this.

So which is more important? A more tolerant Church or a Church that remains true to its historical doctrines? My personal opinion is that it would be better that people that know the truth leave. There is no reasonable path to reform.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:33 pm 
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Dad of a Mormon wrote:
As a non-Mormon, I must say I feel somewhat conflicted here, in the same way I am conflicted about the Church's racism. Yes, it is in many ways a positive development that the church is attempting to be somewhat more tolerant than it was in the past. But at the same time, it has to distort its history to do this.

So which is more important? A more tolerant Church or a Church that remains true to its historical doctrines? My personal opinion is that it would be better that people that know the truth leave. There is no reasonable path to reform.


Successful organizations adapt with the times. In the LDS church, that's called continuing revelation. In a religion that is very much top-down, you're right that there is no way to "reform" from within, so it's foolish for people within to change how the church operates or what it believes--in fact, such people are called "ark steadiers" and risk church discipline. On the other hand, those who steadfastly cling to old doctrines and practices are called fundamentalists and end up taking pictures of rocks.

People stay in the church for many reasons; most truly believe in the church and its teachings. I agree that in a perfect world, the best course for an unbeliever is to leave. I tried to make things work, but couldn't, so I've left. Other people have different experiences and expectations.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Quote:
Successful organizations adapt with the times. In the LDS church, that's called continuing revelation.


evolution also seems to be an appropriate way to describe things in this case. God made a pronouncement, according to LDS, ..."I must join none of them, for they were all wrong...", and now many LDS see that not all religions are all wrong. Many indeed accept that all religions have much good and truth. You see, God, if it was He who spoek to Joseph Smith, as LDS believe, said they are all wrong, it does not mean that everything a religion teaches is wrong, but that no religion at that time was God's one true Church.

Anyway, sometimes that which is revelation to some is just evolved thinking and understanding to another. That's not to say there is no modern day revelation in my estimation.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:47 pm 
Dad of a Mormon wrote:
"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong..."

He continues by saying that their creeds were abominable, etc., but that was after he stated clearly that all other faiths were wrong. No, it says nothing about professors "in his immediate area." And he did publicly claim that other religions are wrong, even claiming that he was persecuted for saying so.



Joseph was seeking out which religion to join. He visited several "revivals" in his area. God told him not to join any of them. What does "them" mean in context? Those that he was considering joining. God also says that those professors were corrupt. Which professors? In context, the ones he was considering following.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:50 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Joseph was seeking out which religion to join. He visited several "revivals" in his area. God told him not to join any of them. What does "them" mean in context? Those that he was considering joining. God also says that those professors were corrupt. Which professors? In context, the ones he was considering following.


Of course, you're well aware that for a very long time the church did not restrict God's words to the immediate vicinity. Earlier church leaders routinely referred to "so-called Christian churches" and decried sectarian ministers as being in the pay of Satan.

So, yes, the current teaching is tolerant, but it hasn't always been that way.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Runtu wrote:
Of course, you're well aware that for a very long time the church did not restrict God's words to the immediate vicinity. Earlier church leaders routinely referred to "so-called Christian churches" and decried sectarian ministers as being in the pay of Satan.

So, yes, the current teaching is tolerant, but it hasn't always been that way.


I think that what Simon is saying is that St. Joseph of Nauvoo can't possibly be criticized because his words and deeds are sanctified and above reproach.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:12 pm 
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stemelbow wrote:
Quote:
Successful organizations adapt with the times. In the LDS church, that's called continuing revelation.


evolution also seems to be an appropriate way to describe things in this case. God made a pronouncement, according to LDS, ..."I must join none of them, for they were all wrong...", and now many LDS see that not all religions are all wrong. Many indeed accept that all religions have much good and truth. You see, God, if it was He who spoek to Joseph Smith, as LDS believe, said they are all wrong, it does not mean that everything a religion teaches is wrong, but that no religion at that time was God's one true Church.

Anyway, sometimes that which is revelation to some is just evolved thinking and understanding to another. That's not to say there is no modern day revelation in my estimation.


By that token, even the most negative anti-Mormon will acknowledge that there is good in the LDS church.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:23 pm 
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Since the infamous Joseph Smith-History passage has been raised again, I will quote it below:

JSH 18-20 wrote:
18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.


It looks to me that "all sects" in the broad sense, instead of the narrow sense of "all of the sects I, Joseph Smith, have recently checked out," is not only a legitimate reading of this text, but probably the better reading.

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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:49 pm 
Kishkumen wrote:
I think that what Simon is saying is that St. Joseph of Nauvoo can't possibly be criticized because his words and deeds are sanctified and above reproach.



That is not my position at all. I believe that Joseph Smith had good intentions and love for other faiths. He said so throughout his life, in fact.


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 Post subject: Re: What is an anti-Mormon? Are you an anti-Mormon?
PostPosted: Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Simon Belmont wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
I think that what Simon is saying is that St. Joseph of Nauvoo can't possibly be criticized because his words and deeds are sanctified and above reproach.



That is not my position at all. I believe that Joseph Smith had good intentions and love for other faiths. He said so throughout his life, in fact.


S.F.C. defending the faith at his keyboard:

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