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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:20 pm 
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Quote:
Gregory L. Smith, Review of Rod L. Meldrum, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon Remnant through DNA, 17


Wait a minute. Isn't this the guy who went on record, waxing poetic about Will's presentation?

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:22 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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harmony wrote:
Quote:
Gregory L. Smith, Review of Rod L. Meldrum, Rediscovering the Book of Mormon Remnant through DNA, 17


Wait a minute. Isn't this the guy who went on record, waxing poetic about Will's presentation?


Yes, and he was also the guy chiefly responsible for one of the biggest blunders in Mopologetic history: the posting of the Carla Ogden Fax.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:24 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
harmony wrote:
Wait a minute. Isn't this the guy who went on record, waxing poetic about Will's presentation?


Yes, and he was also the guy chiefly responsible for one of the biggest blunders in Mopologetic history: the posting of the Carla Ogden Fax.


And now they let him have 150+ pages in the FROB? On purpose? Haven't they learned anything from his previous mistakes????

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:27 pm 
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By the way, over yonder on the FAIR wiki, we find this "criticism:"

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... Statements

* Critics sometimes claim that the Church has officially endorsed a "hemispheric" geography of the Book of Mormon.
* Critics insist that leaders of the Church long ago made one view of Book of Mormon geography "official."
* Critics claim that Church members are encouraged by their leaders not to try to determine where the Book of Mormon occurred.
* Joseph Smith associated the Mayan city of Palenque with Book of Mormon civilizations.
* It is claimed that Joseph Smith knew exactly where the Book of Mormon occurred.


And guess who we find as the first two (out of three) names on the list for the source of this "criticism"?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... calSources

# Rodney Meldrum, DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography: New scientific support for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon; Correlation and Verification through DNA, Prophetic, Scriptural, Historical, Climatological, Archaeological, Social, and Cultural Evidence (Rodney Meldrum, 2007), mail-order DVD.
# Bruce H. Porter and Rod L. Meldrum, Prophecies and Promises: The Book of Mormon & The United States of America (Salt Lake City, Utah: Digital Legend, 2009), 91–113.


In other words, FAIR equates Meldrum's theories with anti-Mormon "criticism."


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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 9:29 pm 
<derail>

Scratch,

I did the honorable thing and answered the questions you posted to me, are you going to answer the questions I posted to you?

</derail>


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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:20 pm 
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sock puppet wrote:
Quite the reactionary you are Nehor. A 150+ page review from one of their regulars, and takes up more than 1/2 of the pages of the current issue. Sounds like it came out of the blue and wasn't on their radar. Get real.


When did DCP make this radar comment? How far in advance are articles written?

Quote:
But if you weren't so reactionary and insisting on denigrating Dean Gad by calling him a toadie, you'd have realized this undercuts one of Doc Scratch's intel reports: that the Packer Faction has told the NAMIRS crowd to play nice with TBMs and their heroes like Meldrum.


So I expect Scratch will now publicly apologize and repudiate his inside source? Yeah right.

Quote:
That Dean Gad would break this news, and describe it as he does, is testimony to his integrity and that of Cassius U.


LOLOLOLOLOLOL

Quote:
If we were the type of hacks that fill the halls at NAMIRS, Dean Gad would have remained quiet in deference to Doc Scratch.


No, I just think they can't keep their story straight. Is Scratch taking this as the rebuke it should be then. I would like to hear from him on this point.

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But you and your knee-jerk reaction suckered right in. You just couldn't help yourself in posting a besmirching comment about Dean Gad.


Yes, I fell into the trap. My pointing out that this is plain nuts is a support of Cassius because the claim makes something else Cassius said nuts.

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I'd normally say get a life, but it seems it would help you more to get some perspective.


Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2010 10:30 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
This is fascinating indeed. It raises a number of interesting and provocative questions. Let me address a few different things here:


Thanks.

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The Nehor wrote:
However DCP is not writing the piece. Was it solicited?


Virtually 100% of the publications in the FARMS Review are "solicited." The publication has---shall we say---a very unique and peculiar method of gathering its articles.


As someone whose descriptions of FARMS in the past have been repeatedly denied and mocked by those who actually are familiar with the process I consider this statement meaningless and inane.

Quote:
Quote:
Volunteered? If the work was volunteered that would suggest that Meldrum might still not be on their radar.


There is no question that Meldrum et al. have been "on [the] radar" of the Powers-that-Be at FARMS.


Scratch has spoken. The thinking has been done.

Quote:
I'm guessing that Greg "The Fly" Smith was "anointed" with the responsibility of writing a hit-piece on Meldrum after Midgley failed to have Meldrum's book yanked from the shelves of Deseret Book.


Anointed huh?

Quote:
We know, thanks to one of my "informants" and Dr. Shades, that Midgley was on a hate-fueled campaign to discredit and attack Meldrum---going so far as to physically confront Meldrum at a conference, and of course, trying to have the book pulled.


Was this informant the one I was just told was discredited by Gad?

Quote:
(I have strong reason to believe that Midgley used his connections in the Twelve to try and get Prophesies and Promises out of DesBook.)


By strong reason I assume your standard basis for reasoning, i.e. your fertile and malevolent imagination.

Quote:
So, in a sense, the timing *is* very, very interesting.


And deeply disturbing.

Quote:
It's very intriguing that this attack comes in the wake of the FAIR Conference, with Will Schryver's much-hyped (but now discredited) Book of Abraham presentation.


What attack? You haven't even read the article in question.

Quote:
I sense somewhat that the behind-the-scenes tides have shifted slightly in favor of the apologists.


Your intuition is suspect. Your purported ability to discern what goes on in closed meeting is farcical to everyone but the gaggle of clowns following you around praising your insights because they are equally defective and/or malevolent people.

Quote:
Is President Packer ill, perhaps? In any event, it will be extremely interesting to see whether the apologists wind up getting scolded for this.


Except you would realistically have no way of knowing if any of this ever happened even if it did. So indeed it will be interesting to see if your deranged imagination sees this happening in the future. My magic 8-ball says 'yes'.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:26 am 
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Darth J wrote:
And guess who we find as the first two (out of three) names on the list for the source of this "criticism"?

http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... calSources

# Rodney Meldrum, DNA Evidence for Book of Mormon Geography: New scientific support for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon; Correlation and Verification through DNA, Prophetic, Scriptural, Historical, Climatological, Archaeological, Social, and Cultural Evidence (Rodney Meldrum, 2007), mail-order DVD.
# Bruce H. Porter and Rod L. Meldrum, Prophecies and Promises: The Book of Mormon & The United States of America (Salt Lake City, Utah: Digital Legend, 2009), 91–113.


In other words, FAIR equates Meldrum's theories with anti-Mormon "criticism."


Yes! In other words, the word critic is sufficiently imprecise that one type of critic can easily be conflated with others. The FAIR folk and other apologists seem to be increasingly using the term critic to associate those who criticize them or particular scholarly theories with anti-Mormon critics. CRITIC, that wonderful word that associates anyone who disagrees with me, Mr. FAIR, with anti-Mormons everywhere!

I noticed recently that Wade kept using the word "critic" to refer to those who are not fully persuaded by, or may criticize, Will's FAIR presentation. I doubt that Wade consciously meant much by it, but it was an excellent illustration of how this works. Even though there are deeply faithful and committed LDS scholars who are not fully persuaded by Will's work on the KEP, and may even disagree with it, one can simply generalize using the word "critic" and voila! A good LDS member is lumped in with anti-Mormons.

And when the apologist wants to wriggle out of being pegged for making this implicit accusation and defaming, all he or she has to say is, "I never said 'anti-Mormon'!"

Here we have identified a new Mopologetic ploy to silence those who express disagreement with Mopologetica.


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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 5:54 am 
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As you know, I support Meldrum, because his theory leads to an obvious conclusion. Should be interesting.

What I am REALLY curious about is
Quote:
Ben McGuire, Review of Ross Anderson, Understanding the Book of Mormon: A Quick Christian Guide to the Mormon Holy Book, 163
I haven't seen any one discussing that book before. How on earth can a person write a "quick guide" to the Book of Mormon from a Christian perspective? It is too complex to be discussed in that way. Unless the Baptist theology it presents is compatible with Protestant beliefs, so can be glossed over. Has anybody here, other than Ben, himself, read it?

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:33 pm 
B.H. Roberts Chair of Mopologetic Studies
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I see that the aptly named MAD poster called "kolikopi09" is peddling falsehoods:

kolikopi09 wrote:
This one in particular, struck me as surprising from one who claims inside knowledge about the inner-workings of FARMS and is receiving credit for its "hurried" publication.

The Encyclopedia of Mopologetics wrote:
Treatment of Rodney Meldrum & FIRM: FARMS and FAIR aren't the only Mormon apologetic organizations in existence. Their chief "competitor," as it were, is FIRM--the traditionalist and faith-promoting organization headed up by Rodney Meldrum. Shortly after his emergence as a traditionalist force to be reckoned with, Meldrum was slapped with a detailed and highly aggressive critique from FAIR. This occurred in the middle of 2008. Since that time, however, formal criticism of Meldrum has been virtually non-existant, despite the fact that Meldrum published a highly successful book towards the end of 2009.

According to an anonymous source, this was the result of intervention on the part of the Brethren: notably those General Authorities who are sympathetic to the views of Elder Boyd K. Packer. Rumors circulated that FARMS "Emperor" Louis Midgley had to personally assume responsibility for "stopping" the Meldrum juggernaut. Allegedly, Midgley's lobbying caused Deseret Book stores to pull Meldrum's publication from its shelves, only to have it restored after the intervention of the Packer and his sympathizers.



Scratch wrote this almost three weeks ago. It is baseless garbage. He accepts anything from "anonymous sources," providing that the treatment of Mormonism fits his standards.....negative. FAIR and FARMS criticism of Meldrum has been virtually non-existent? That's a surprise. I've been a poster at MADB for over two years. Meldrum is a common topic, and received a great deal of attention after each of his conferences, and after MADB posters would encounter family/friends who espoused his theories. Even more surprising, is that Meldrum's theories received a theoretical rebirth of sorts when it was pointed out that Glenn Beck would be talking about FIRM-ite theories on his show.....four days AFTER Scratch claimed that formal criticism has been "virtually non-existent." But then again, discussion boards other than his own cesspool may not meet up to Scratch's "standards" of what constitutes "formal criticism." I wonder if Scratch will be surprised to find that roughly half of the latest edition of the Review is addressing the very issue he has deemed "non-existent?" Of course, who are we kidding. We all know that Greg Smith (who Scratch calls the "Jeff Goldblum of MA&B") and Ugo Perego saw Scratch's blog post from two weeks ago and his comments about there being no criticism of Meldrum as of late, and rushed "frantically" over the past two weeks to "put something together" to soften the death blows that Scratch makes daily against Mopologia.


Let me respond:

1) It was Dr. Robbers, and not myself, who suggested that the latest FROB was squeezed through the press in "answer" to my observations.

2) It's true: I don't consider messageboard postings by 3rd-, 4th, 5th-, or lower-tier apologists to be "formal." By formal, I was referring to things "officially" endorsed by either FAIR or FARMS. So I was quite correct: there had been no retaliation against Meldrum since (roughly) mid-2008. DCP's comment about him not have a "book" is silly, since the FARMS Review has had no problem reviewing, say, websites and games in the past. Clearly, there was some other administrative reason why the MI didn't publish anything.

Interestingly, kolikopi09 observes:

koli wrote:
Scratch wrote this almost three weeks ago.


And DCP notes:

DCP wrote:
It typically takes roughly three weeks, once the Review has arrived at the printers, for it to be printed and bound and delivered -- and this most recent number was typical in that regard.


Well, there you go.

If you are reading this, young kolikopi, I would advise you very strongly to avoid engaging in gross distortion. There is a reason why Mopologists have a bad reputation.

*******

Meanwhile, I confess that I was delighted at a kind note from an old "informant," who pointed out for me that Dr. Peterson is erupting with indignation, shaking his fists at the sky and consulting (yes, consulting!) with LoaP (yes---LoaP!) on ways to combat and counter my unassailable and brilliant critique of Mopologetics.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:45 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Meanwhile, I confess that I was delighted at a kind note from an old "informant," who pointed out for me that Dr. Peterson is erupting with indignation, shaking his fists at the sky and consulting (yes, consulting!) with LoaP (yes---LoaP!) on ways to combat and counter my unassailable and brilliant critique of Mopologetics.


I'd like to see the link for that, please.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:56 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:

I wonder: when was the last time that they devoted an article of this length to a single author?


Grant Palmer had quite a few reviews. There is probably a direct relationship between people needing to be attacked and pages devoted to that attack.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:20 am 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Meanwhile, I confess that I was delighted at a kind note from an old "informant," who pointed out for me that Dr. Peterson is erupting with indignation, shaking his fists at the sky and consulting (yes, consulting!) with LoaP (yes---LoaP!) on ways to combat and counter my unassailable and brilliant critique of Mopologetics.


i.e. the voices in your head are telling you what you want to hear.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:51 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
DCP's comment about him not have a "book" is silly, since the FARMS Review has had no problem reviewing, say, websites and games in the past. Clearly, there was some other administrative reason why the MI didn't publish anything.


Yes, didn't our esteemed colleague Dr. Shades have his website smeared in the Review? Obviously, some Mopologist (I don't remember who, and doubtless it is not important) was quite willing to review his site, and the Review happily published that.

Doctor Scratch wrote:
If you are reading this, young kolikopi, I would advise you very strongly to avoid engaging in gross distortion. There is a reason why Mopologists have a bad reputation.


Yes. At Cassius University we are taking note of these distortions and recording them for posterity. Sadly, some apologists, the type we might fairly call "Mopologists," think nothing of distortion when they feel confident in the righteousness of their cause. It is definitely an "ends justifies the means" methodology.


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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:21 pm 
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LOL.

I think I've just inadvertently kicked the hive.

Mistakenly posted PM.

.

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Last edited by Daniel Peterson on Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:40 pm 
God

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Daniel Peterson wrote:
LOL.

I think I've just inadvertently kicked the hive.


Whoa! Did you bring a sword, Dan? You know... to smite the unrighteous, hip and thigh?

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 5:43 pm 
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Kishkumen wrote:
but there is a distinctly Tea Party odor about the whole thing that does not sit well with me.


You don't say...

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:08 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:

Mistakenly posted PM.

.


ROTFL!!!

Dang it, Shades! I need a proper smilie here!

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:13 pm 
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cinepro wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
but there is a distinctly Tea Party odor about the whole thing that does not sit well with me.


You don't say...

From the link -

"Come learn from the finest educators and speakers in our great nation on many critically important topics, such as our inspired Founding Fathers, the establishment of a free nation governed by its people, the epic bravery of those who fought to retain liberty, the fundamental importance of the establishment of the Constitution and Bill of Rights to human freedom, the role of the United States of America in world history and ancient prophecy..."

Wait, what?

"...acknowledgement of God’s hand in the formation of this nation, the role of Native American’s in its representative form of government, the critical importance of upholding, honoring and defending these sacred documents, and how, through education, we can restore honor and patriotism, faith and charity, for a renewed sense of hope for our country!"

And this isn't at BYU? But rather at UVU? Wow.

You know, I honestly wonder if there is anyone in the Tea Party movement that has a clue about the enlightenment and why it, rather than any claims to Christianity or "God" other than a deistic one playing the major role (or a minor one really) in the formation of our nation is not only incorrect, it's bleeding blasphemy.

I completely agree with the last sentence, though. We really do need to work on educating people better in order to restore honor and a sense of hope that comes from realizing and working within the context of the frailties of human nature, the abusiveness of theological as well as hereditary government systems, and above all the need to work together WITH our differences in order to overcome our biases and necessarily subjective views. The Bill of Rights would never be able to be written today because we are losing the ability to have a Jefferson, a Madison, and a Hamilton be in the same room and actually accomplish something. THAT is where we need to look immediately for change that matters.

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:19 pm 
God

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cinepro wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
but there is a distinctly Tea Party odor about the whole thing that does not sit well with me.


You don't say...


That's quite a list of "not confirmed" at the end.

I think I'll have to hang my head in shame... but this is exactly the kind of thing my oldest son would enjoy. *sigh* Where did I go wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: FARMS launches a sneak attack against Rodney Meldrum
PostPosted: Sat Sep 04, 2010 6:36 pm 
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harmony wrote:
cinepro wrote:


That's quite a list of "not confirmed" at the end.

I think I'll have to hang my head in shame... but this is exactly the kind of thing my oldest son would enjoy. *sigh* Where did I go wrong?

I apologize this is becoming a derail, but I recently visited family in Utah and was struck by how much the Tea Party agenda has wed itself with the LDS faith. But what also struck me was how few voices of opposition there were.

I had a 14 year old nephew who was quoting Glen Beck to me. (The bee's know??? WTF!?)My brother and I (he is a poli-sci grad pursuing a law degree and is not actively affiliated with the LDS faith any more either) found it odd but also didn't back down from talking to him openly about political process, the need to be a critical thinker, why money drives politics for both parties as well as their outside political bull-horn blowers, and above all why he needs to read/listen to both sides to be able to form his own opinion about these things. I honestly think he matured a little in our hour long conversation. He later said he wanted to talk more in order to be more enlightened. Which means he has a ways to go I guess. But it was good to see him start asking questions and thinking about answers rather than reciting slogans.

My brother-in-law (wife's brother, different event with her side of the fam now) also was waxing eloquent about Tea Party talking points. Without causing a war, I was able to effectively get him to stop reciting and starting thinking about issues by doing nothing more than ask questions and make simple, real-world observations that were not partisan.

But the trend of what I saw scares me. I live in Arizona where it is almost as bad. But it seems we are losing our ability to have public discourse on challenging issues in a manner that doesn't turn into a four-window Hardball shouting match. There is no public political conversation anymore. Why?

Anyway, Harmony, I don't think you did anything wrong. It's what's being said out there and like choosing a jeans brand your son is acting rationally. He just needs to be shown that there is another view that is valid and to be an adult means he needs to be able to consider both views and make unique choices based on information rather than slogans and buzz words.

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