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 Post subject: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:55 pm 
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This may seem like a stupid question but when missionaries commit people to baptism they ask them to.

Not drink coffee, tea, or alcohol.
Not use illegal harmful drugs.
Not to smoke tobacco.

If marijauna was legalized would it be considered a harmful drug? I watched this documentary on marijuana and I thought it was pretty interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sknoKWsVlAA

In this video it says that marijuana was made illegal for the same reason the states put a prohibition on alcohol. Another video I saw said that cotton framers did not want the competition with hemp farmers and lobbied to make it illegal. I guess marijuana is less addictive than tobacco, alcohol, and caffeine.

I heard some of the negative side affects of marijuana is short term memory loss and increase heart rate while you are high. I am not sure about the long term affects of marijuana use because I heard there has not been enough studies on it. One thing I read is that if you use it constantly you can have this thing called "burn out" and that is where you have short term memory loss for about a year after using the drug. I have to admit I do know some stoners and they do seem a little slow sometimes...

So if marijuana is less addictive than caffeine and caffeine is not against the WOW and could be considered a harmful drug do you think that marijuana would be against the WOW if it was legalized. Considering it does not seem to be that addictive or that harmful if you use it in small amounts. Just like everything else which is moderation in all things.

What do you all think?


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:01 pm 
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I've thought about this quite a bit, and I can almost guarantee it will still be against the WOW, imo. Marijuana may not have addictive properties and can be used for medical purposes, but the original concept of inhaling smoke into your lungs that causes an altered state of mind couldn't possibly be fly with the Mormon church. Plus, it has such a bad rap and is pretty taboo in Mormon culture as it is, I can see church leaders coming out with an official statement regarding the evils of Marijuana. If petty things such as coffee and tea goes against the WOW, Marijuana seems like the perfect candidate to be off limits if it were made legal.

I am going to watch that documentary right now. If you haven't seen it already, (and you have netflix) I highly recommend this documentary about Marijuana as well, it's really interesting and informative! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1039647/


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:29 pm 
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rallychild wrote:
I am going to watch that documentary right now. If you haven't seen it already, (and you have netflix) I highly recommend this documentary about Marijuana as well, it's really interesting and informative! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1039647/


I think you are probably right and most Mormons would just assume it would be against the WOW if marijauna was legalized.

Thanks for the documentary suggestion. BC is the next provience over so Calgary gets some of the best weed in the world. My parents have netflix but I doubt they would watch it with me.


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:08 pm 
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I imagine it would still fall against the WOW, although its use for medical reasons might fit somewhere in the gray area of the shoulds and should nots of LDS.

If not for its history of being bullied and smeared, pot consumption would probably be no more of an offense in the church than having a caffeinated energy drink... Although, it does seem to promote free thinking of sorts, which might not serve the hierarchy all that well..


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:50 pm 
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It would be most likely be like any other drug. Recreational use would be bad. Medical use okay if you're careful.

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:02 am 
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The Nehor wrote:
It would be most likely be like any other drug. Recreational use would be bad. Medical use okay if you're careful.


I don't think In terms of receiving a temple recommend it would be just like any other drug, because the recreational use of some drugs is treated differently than others. Caffeine, for example, is a drug. You can recreationally use it. Nevertheless, you very likely won't be denied a temple recommend for admitting such use. Assuming marijuana were made legal, you could recreationally use it, and you would very likely be denied a temple recommend. Two drugs, both recreationally used, both legal (in our imaginary world), but two different results. It's tempting to say "well, any use of marijuana is sufficiently worse (in the relevant health related ways) than any use of caffeine". But, it's worth considering that in all likelihood the same thing would happen even in the case where one person confesses to consistent twice a month careful marijuana use, and another person confesses to daily consumption of highly caffeinated energy drinks. Surely, the daily consumption of highly caffeinated energy drinks is worse than careful twice a month marijuana use.


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:09 am 
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The Nehor wrote:
It would be most likely be like any other drug. Recreational use would be bad. Medical use okay if you're careful.


What is so bad about it? Mormons use caffeine for recreational use and it is more addictive and more harmful than marijuana. Caffeine kills about 7500 people in the states a year. They can't even find one person that has been killed from marijauna. There doesn't seem to be any long term side effects either or we would have seen them by now.


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 Post subject: .
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:01 pm 
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Last edited by Ezias on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:09 pm 
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brade wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
It would be most likely be like any other drug. Recreational use would be bad. Medical use okay if you're careful.


I don't think In terms of receiving a temple recommend it would be just like any other drug, because the recreational use of some drugs is treated differently than others. Caffeine, for example, is a drug. You can recreationally use it. Nevertheless, you very likely won't be denied a temple recommend for admitting such use. Assuming marijuana were made legal, you could recreationally use it, and you would very likely be denied a temple recommend. Two drugs, both recreationally used, both legal (in our imaginary world), but two different results. It's tempting to say "well, any use of marijuana is sufficiently worse (in the relevant health related ways) than any use of caffeine". But, it's worth considering that in all likelihood the same thing would happen even in the case where one person confesses to consistent twice a month careful marijuana use, and another person confesses to daily consumption of highly caffeinated energy drinks. Surely, the daily consumption of highly caffeinated energy drinks is worse than careful twice a month marijuana use.


I agree with you for the most part but caffeine has always been a limited exception (to some Mormons).

While caffeine has long-term effects that make it dubious, marijuana's short term effects are much more noticeable and dangerous in your average LDS household. If mom like a drink of hot cocoa every night it is unlikely to change anything. If mom is watching three kids and smokes marijuana she is less likely to keep them from doing something dangerous.

It is also probably important to note that LDS tend to condemn more things that impair judgment then they do things that imperil long-term health. Obesity is unlikely to make you stupid. Beer will. Obesity is more likely to shave years off your life then beer unless you're an alcoholic.

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 Post subject: .
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:16 pm 
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Last edited by Ezias on Fri Oct 21, 2011 12:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm 
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Marijuana is not against the Word of Wisdom now.

I would just like to point out the faulty premise in the OP: that the LDS Church believes in the Word of Wisdom. It does not. It believes in the Prohibition-era temperance movement ideas that Heber J. Grant had a hang-up about when he made it a requirement to get a temple recommend not to drink alcohol/smoke/have coffee or tea.

The LDS Church's current policy of "no harmful drugs" is another diktat about proper Mormon behavior. It is not found anywhere in Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Trying to shoehorn current illegal narcotics into Joseph Smith's recitation of 19th-century beliefs about health is just another example of the Church using the scriptures as a springboard for launching into homilies about what modern Mormons are supposed to do and believe (remember that Section 89 specifically says that it is not a commandment).

Note also that in Rambo listing what missionaries tell people, there is nothing about using meat sparingly, having mild drinks made from barley, etc.

Nor is the LDS Church really concerned about "the spirit of the law." If it were, we would not have faithful Latter-day Saints gorging on Twinkies, ice cream, donuts, etc., but thinking that they will "run and not be weary, walk and not be faint" just because they don't smoke pot or drink coffee.

P.S. BYU research on Mormons and obesity from indulging that sweet tooth:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/

Also: The Church on eating right and exercise:

http://lds.org/ensign/2002/10/my-obsess ... d?lang=eng

And yet the do's are irrelevant to a temple recommend, while the do not's are obsessed over.

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
Marijuana is not against the Word of Wisdom now.

I would just like to point out the faulty premise in the OP: that the LDS Church believes in the Word of Wisdom. It does not. It believes in the Prohibition-era temperance movement ideas that Heber J. Grant had a hang-up about when he made it a requirement to get a temple recommend not to drink alcohol/smoke/have coffee or tea.


This is called continuing revelation.

Quote:
The LDS Church's current policy of "no harmful drugs" is another diktat about proper Mormon behavior. It is not found anywhere in Section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Trying to shoehorn current illegal narcotics into Joseph Smith's recitation of 19th-century beliefs about health is just another example of the Church using the scriptures as a springboard for launching into homilies about what modern Mormons are supposed to do and believe (remember that Section 89 specifically says that it is not a commandment).


This is called continuing revelation.

Quote:
Note also that in Rambo listing what missionaries tell people, there is nothing about using meat sparingly, having mild drinks made from barley, etc.


This is called continuing revelation.

Quote:
Nor is the LDS Church really concerned about "the spirit of the law." If it were, we would not have faithful Latter-day Saints gorging on Twinkies, ice cream, donuts, etc., but thinking that they will "run and not be weary, walk and not be faint" just because they don't smoke pot or drink coffee.


The Church cannot be equated with some of it's members not living it..

Quote:
P.S. BYU research on Mormons and obesity from indulging that sweet tooth:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/

Also: The Church on eating right and exercise:

http://lds.org/ensign/2002/10/my-obsess ... d?lang=eng

And yet the do's are irrelevant to a temple recommend, while the do not's are obsessed over.


The reason is obvious. The hard and fast laws are easy to tell when broken. The fuzzier ones about general health less so. However members who gorge themselves and then claim to keep the Word of Wisdom are lying and it will be treated as such by God.

_________________
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"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:40 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:

This is called continuing revelation.

This is called continuing revelation.


I would like to read this revelation. Where can I find it?

Quote:
Quote:
Nor is the LDS Church really concerned about "the spirit of the law." If it were, we would not have faithful Latter-day Saints gorging on Twinkies, ice cream, donuts, etc., but thinking that they will "run and not be weary, walk and not be faint" just because they don't smoke pot or drink coffee.


The Church cannot be equated with some of it's members not living it.


The Church can be equated for being concerned about the taboos of the temperance movement instead of actual, real health principles (such as the benefits of a glass of red wine each day, for example).

Quote:
Quote:
P.S. BYU research on Mormons and obesity from indulging that sweet tooth:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11355738/ns/health-fitness/

Also: The Church on eating right and exercise:

http://lds.org/ensign/2002/10/my-obsess ... d?lang=eng

And yet the do's are irrelevant to a temple recommend, while the do not's are obsessed over.


The reason is obvious. The hard and fast laws are easy to tell when broken. The fuzzier ones about general health less so. However members who gorge themselves and then claim to keep the Word of Wisdom are lying and it will be treated as such by God.


They are lying about keeping the commandments? Really? How are they lying about doing something that the Church does not prohibit?

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:44 pm 
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The "obvious reason" is that the Church is concerned with its own cultural taboos more than principles of right and wrong.

Proof:

If you admit to your bishop that you drink beer, you don't get a temple recommend.

Meanwhile, the CEO of Marriott International, which has made any number of millions of dollars from pay-per-view pornography, is a General Authority.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
I would like to read this revelation. Where can I find it?


It doesn't have to be explicitly written down to be revelation.

Quote:
Quote:
The Church cannot be equated with some of it's members not living it.


The Church can be equated for being concerned about the taboos of the temperance movement instead of actual, real health principles (such as the benefits of a glass of red wine each day, for example).


Which is guesswork regarding the Church. And of course many of our friends in Europe are now saying a glass of wine a day increases your risk of cancer.

Quote:

The reason is obvious. The hard and fast laws are easy to tell when broken. The fuzzier ones about general health less so. However members who gorge themselves and then claim to keep the Word of Wisdom are lying and it will be treated as such by God.


They are lying about keeping the commandments? Really? How are they lying about doing something that the Church does not prohibit?[/quote]

I think you are a little slow today. We aren't talking black and white prohibitions. When it tells you to make grains the primary intake with a mixture of fruits and vegetables and meat sparingly it is not a hard and fast rule of so many calories from each. However, the command to follow it is there.

If you don't follow it and claim you are, you are lying.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:50 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
The "obvious reason" is that the Church is concerned with its own cultural taboos more than principles of right and wrong.


Nope.

Quote:
Proof:

If you admit to your bishop that you drink beer, you don't get a temple recommend.

Meanwhile, the CEO of Marriott International, which has made any number of millions of dollars from pay-per-view pornography, is a General Authority.


And this old canard comes out again. What a surprise.

_________________
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:57 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
The reason is obvious. The hard and fast laws are easy to tell when broken. The fuzzier ones about general health less so. However members who gorge themselves and then claim to keep the Word of Wisdom are lying and it will be treated as such by God.


Image

Check out that pot belly on Monson. What sort of punishments do you suppose God has in store for this lying WoW breaker?

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:00 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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The Nehor wrote:
Darth J wrote:
I would like to read this revelation. Where can I find it?


It doesn't have to be explicitly written down to be revelation.


I see. That must be why you have accepted the continuing revelation about not watching rated R movies.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13128&p=324883&hilit=rated+r

Quote:
Quote:
The Church can be equated for being concerned about the taboos of the temperance movement instead of actual, real health principles (such as the benefits of a glass of red wine each day, for example).


Which is guesswork regarding the Church. And of course many of our friends in Europe are now saying a glass of wine a day increases your risk of cancer.


You'd think we'd have answers to all this, what with all that continuing revelation that issues constantly from the Lord's oracles.

Quote:
Quote:

The reason is obvious. The hard and fast laws are easy to tell when broken. The fuzzier ones about general health less so. However members who gorge themselves and then claim to keep the Word of Wisdom are lying and it will be treated as such by God.


They are lying about keeping the commandments? Really? How are they lying about doing something that the Church does not prohibit?


Quote:
I think you are a little slow today. We aren't talking black and white prohibitions. When it tells you to make grains the primary intake with a mixture of fruits and vegetables and meat sparingly it is not a hard and fast rule of so many calories from each. However, the command to follow it is there.

If you don't follow it and claim you are, you are lying.


Unfortunately, real life is inconsistent with your ipse dixit. "The command" is not still there to follow, and never was. While this advice, like other 19th century ideas, is found in D&C 89, Section 89 says that it is not a commandment. Nor has the Church ever taught this to be a commandment. The Church has only cherry-picked the temperance parts to be called commandments (contrary to the text of the D&C).

The temple recommend interview also manages to ask questions that are not hard-and-fast, black-and-white, like "are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man" and whether your behavior toward family members is consistent with the teachings of the Savior. There is also the umbrella question of whether you feel worthy to enter the house of the Lord. So actual church policy is not born out by your "obvious reasons." If the Church can and does ask "fuzzy" questions in a TR interview, there is no reason why a "spirit of the Word of Wisdom" question is precluded, unless, as I said, the Church is concerned mainly with enforcing its own cultural taboos.

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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:01 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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The Nehor wrote:
Darth J wrote:
The "obvious reason" is that the Church is concerned with its own cultural taboos more than principles of right and wrong.


Nope.


I am not surprised that this is the extent of your retort, since, like other internet Mormons, your own say so is firmly established as your source of authority.

Quote:
Quote:
Proof:

If you admit to your bishop that you drink beer, you don't get a temple recommend.

Meanwhile, the CEO of Marriott International, which has made any number of millions of dollars from pay-per-view pornography, is a General Authority.


And this old canard comes out again. What a surprise.


Okay. Refute it.

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And the life of the ebony clock went out with that of the last of the gay. And the flames of the tripods expired. And Darkness and Decay and the Red Death held illimitable dominion over all.


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:12 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
The Nehor wrote:

Nope.


I am not surprised that this is the extent of your retort, since, like other internet Mormons, your own say so is firmly established as your source of authority.


How exactly am I supposed to retort you speculating on the motives of others? Especially when many of the others are dead?

Quote:
Quote:
And this old canard comes out again. What a surprise.


Okay. Refute it.


Sure, the Church did not sponsor, order, or cajole Marriott into offering pornographic movies. I do not know how much control Marriott had over his hotels, whether this was his decision, whether he condoned it, whether the board pressed for it, or whether he spoke with God about it and accepted it as necessary to keep the hotels running. In the same way, LDS can sell liquor without being excommunicated.

You don't know the answers to all these questions either. There was a prominent Mormon involved. You see something that allows for the possibility he did something wrong/broke a commandment. You jump to summary judgment along with your other anti-Mormon peers and see it in the darkest hue possible and then repeat it ad nauseum.

It's standard procedure. It is vindictive and in no way conclusive. It is pointless to keep bringing it up except as a kind of rallying cheer for the mindless masses of anti-mos who cheer every time it is brought up.

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"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: If marijauna was legal would it still be against the WOW?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Nehor, are people that own porn stores aloud to have temple recommends? Do you think a person that owns porn stores we be made a GA? Is Marriot Hotels a public company or does the GA own the hotels? If he owns them then I don't see a difference between selling porn in a hotel or selling porn from a store. To me it depends on how much money the member brings into the church and if this member does everything else by church standards.


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