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 Post subject: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:46 am 
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Since cross posting is encouraged here...I'll ask here as well.

Looked in on a few sites…one is a buzz with the tried and true method of "poisoning the well". The critics cannot wait until Will Schryver has finished his presentation, they must first attack his character and then his findings which they do not have yet.

Of course he who sold his inheritance over a "mess of pottage" (over the Book of Abraham) leads the pack…with the usual suspects in tow.

I have always loved this definition from Wiki…so I will use it again.

Quote:
Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a logical fallacy where adverse information about a target is pre-emptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing everything that the target person is about to say. Poisoning the well is a special case of argumentum ad hominem, and the term was first used with this sense by John Henry Newman in his work Apologia Pro Vita Sua
The origin of the term lies in the ancient practice of pouring poison into sources of fresh water before an invading army in order to diminish the invading army's strength. In general usage, poisoning the well is the provision of any information that may produce a biased result. For example, if a woman tells her friend, "I think I might buy this beautiful dress", then asks how it looks, she has "poisoned the well", as her previous comment could affect her friend's response.
An even simpler example of poisoning the well is by tautology and definition, or circular reasoning. This is similar to equivocation, where the use of words communicate a confusing meaning (often called a subtle lie). For example, if one starts an argument with "Everything I say is correct, no matter what you say", the well is poisoned and nothing a person says (be it true or false) will matter by the initiator's definition.


Can we (and you guys know who you are) at least wait for the fight to begin, before casting the first blows?


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:51 am 
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Quote:
For example, if a woman tells her friend, "I think I might buy this beautiful dress", then asks how it looks, she has "poisoned the well", as her previous comment could affect her friend's response.


Hello Mr. Pa Pa,

How many examples do you think you could find of Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver and his backers "poisoning the well" on the aptly named MAD board?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Edited to add:

Quote:
Schryver has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea the KEP are the "translation documents" of the Book of Abraham, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.


With the above-noted quote, who do you think "poisoned the well"/struck the first blow, Mr. Pa Pa?

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:03 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Quote:
For example, if a woman tells her friend, "I think I might buy this beautiful dress", then asks how it looks, she has "poisoned the well", as her previous comment could affect her friend's response.


Hello Mr. Pa Pa,

How many examples do you think you could find of Mr. William "Gookie Cookie" Schryver and his backers "poisoning the well" on the aptly named MAD board?

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

Edited to add:

Quote:
Schryver has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea the KEP are the "translation documents" of the Book of Abraham, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt Doom under the continental plates.


With the above-noted quote, who do you think "poisoned the well"/struck the first blow, Mr. Pa Pa?

Maybe a reread of the definition of "poisoning the well" will help. The quote that you listed is called "baiting the fish". "Poisoning the Well" is when someone tries to discredit what the person will say, not bolster him. These are two different terms, and serve two different purposes.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:04 am 
God
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Hell Mr. Pa Pa,

Quote:
While I have been pleased in many ways by the universally positive response to date, I did not expect it, and I have no illusions that it will continue unabated. Come 2:30pm Friday afternoon, the real fun will begin. (A smile is creeping onto my face just thinking about it.) As soon as the curtain comes down on my presentation, it will come up on what will, I'm quite certain, amount to at least a week or two of almost rabid denunciation from certain quarters.


Oh my. I do believe there's a quote somewhere about a mote and an eye...

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


Last edited by Doctor CamNC4Me on Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:10 am 
God
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Hello Mr. Pa Pa,

Taken from your reference:

Quote:
For example, if a woman tells her friend, "I think I might buy this beautiful dress", then asks how it looks, she has "poisoned the well", as her previous comment could affect her friend's response.


Poisoning the well doesn't have to be negative, nor does it has to be positive. You're simply attempting to shape an argument by prempting a response with planted information about the argument.

Regardless, I don't expect you to admit an error. Most Mopologists don't admit to being wrong.

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:10 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Hell Mr. Pa Pa,

Quote:
While I have been pleased in many ways by the universally positive response to date, I did not expect it, and I have no illusions that it will continue unabated. Come 2:30pm Friday afternoon, the real fun will begin. (A smile is creeping onto my face just thinking about it.) As soon as the curtain comes down on my presentation, it will come up on what will, I'm quite certain, amount to at least a week or two of almost rabid denunciation from certain quarters.


Oh my. I do belive there's a quote somewhere about mote and eye...

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

I am guessing that "Baiting the fish" (or Pond) is unfamiliar to you? I take you are not a fisherman? Neither are behaviors to be admired.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:18 am 
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Hello,

Why am I reminded of this saying?

Quote:
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time." Richard Nixon


Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

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In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:20 am 
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I for one am bemused by both the orgasm of joy that has erupted over Will's presentation, before it has really been subjected to broad scrutiny, and the rush to proclaim it stillborn. The whole thing is silly, and I can't help but think that the real beneficiaries here are the people at FAIR. I don't blame them for selling the conference by creating this tempest in a teapot, but, at the same, time, in the end I doubt that the whole episode will be of very great consequence, once the dust has settled and cooler heads begin to prevail.

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:29 am 
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Hello,

I believe everyone who has weighed in on this topic simply enjoy speculating about things Mormon. When someone comes along and proclaims that x-y-z bit of information will bury an argument underneath a volcano, well... You can't be surprised by the kinds of responses that Mr. Schryver and company have produced.

That said... Here is a list of logical fallacies for Mr. Pa Pa:

http://changingminds.org/disciplines/ar ... _alpha.htm

Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:41 am 
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Gentlemen,

Given what has leaked out from Mr. Will Schryver and the previewers in advance of Friday, it appears that all Mr. Schryver is attempting to do is (1) place the KEP 1a and 1b as being copies of the real translation manuscript of Book of Abraham 1-3, which is not available, and (2) disclose his hypothesis on what the KEP "really means". He seems to think it is important to refute that KEP 1a and 1b are duplicate originals of that manuscript, but just copies or some re-dictation product.

I have not prejudged before seeing the presentation whether Mr. Schryver may or may not accomplish establishing that the KEP 1a and 1b are not the original translation manuscripts. I've simply wanted to know, and asked, so what if they are not the original translation manuscripts? How does that dispel any criticisms?

As for Mr. Schryver's knowing what the KEP really "means", well we are apparently going to have to wait until Friday for Mr. Schryver's big hypothesis to be announced as that part has not been hinted at or leaked, except perhaps there was a little hint last fall that it was to be the already hackneyed explanation that the scribes, unbeknownst to JSJr, were trying to reverse engineer their own Egyptian alphabet.

We shall see, we shall see.

Regards,

Spider.

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:48 am 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Hello,

Why am I reminded of this saying?

Quote:
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time." Richard Nixon


Very Respectfully,

Doctor CamNC4Me

I am not good with the subtle…just come out and say what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:52 am 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Trevor wrote:
I for one am bemused by both the orgasm of joy that has erupted over Will's presentation, before it has really been subjected to broad scrutiny, and the rush to proclaim it stillborn. The whole thing is silly, and I can't help but think that the real beneficiaries here are the people at FAIR. I don't blame them for selling the conference by creating this tempest in a teapot, but, at the same, time, in the end I doubt that the whole episode will be of very great consequence, once the dust has settled and cooler heads begin to prevail.


Image


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:58 am 
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LOL -- Darth J. If breaking the "loud laughter" refrain were a TR question, I am afraid I would fail thanks to you...well, that and all the alcohol, smoking, drugs, sabbath breaking and porn wouldn't help me much either.

Quote:
As with all gifts, however, humor can be misused and abused, and the Lord has seen fit to caution us in its use. We are counseled to live with “cheerful hearts and countenances,” but to avoid “much laughter, for this is sin.” (D&C 59: 15.)

Thanks Darth J. you have caused me to "sin". I hope the angels in heaven are recording on their tablets exactly who is at fault for that.


Edited to add:

Trevor has smartly summed up this whole torrid brouhaha over nothing
Quote:
I don't blame them for selling the conference by creating this tempest in a teapot

It is a PR stunt to sell tickets. Gee, how original.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:12 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Regarding the Deseret News/Mormon Times efforts to inoculate whatever it is Schryver has to say from scrutiny:

http://www.mormontimes.com/article/1616 ... Conference

"William Schryver is onto something big, and it's driving critics of the Book of Abraham crazy."


1. How can it be driving anyone crazy before they have seen it?

2. Why is the phrase "driving them crazy" used, if not to imply that the debate is over before it starts?

3. Who are "the critics"? Why does the Church, and why do its defenders, consistently try to paint anyone who does not believe the Church's truth claims as some monolithic group?

And later:

"Greg Smith, one online commenter who had also seen the early version of Schryver's presentation, put it this way: 'Schryver has, I think, pretty much killed, buried, and nailed the coffin shut on the idea the KEP are the 'translation documents' of the Book of Abraham, and then thrown the coffin into Mount Doom, before dropping Mt. Doom under the continental plates.'"


Be it far from me to suggest that this is overly-hyping any presentation by anyone on any topic in any field, no matter how well-crafted or accurate it might be.

However, since the Church-owned media is sharing quotes from internet boards (MADB, in this case), why not also share some of Brother Schryver's statements on message boards? After all, since the Church-owned media has seen fit to throw down the gauntlet to "critics" regarding this inchoate presentation, shouldn't the public be informed about how Brother Schryver responds to those who disagree with his theories?

Here, I'll start:

William Schryver wrote:

No one except apostates and those well on their way have ever believed for a minute that I am the "foul mouthed, vulgar" caricature championed by you and the other whore's whelps here in the Perpetual Circle Jerk Suite™.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11811&p=294153&hilit=circle+jerk#p294153


Here's another gem from our Defender of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ:

William Schryver wrote:

In any case, your continuing to call me a bald-faced liar is well noted (along with the other string of adjectives you have employed in the past and in your post above). Should you ever run into me in person, I guess you’d better hope I’m a “forgive and forget Christian,” huh? Otherwise you might find yourself having a knuckle sandwich for lunch.
.................
In the immortal words of Ulysses Everett McGill: "Well ain't you two just dumber'n a bag a hammers."

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12845&p=318666&hilit=bag+of+hammers#p318666


What do you say, Pa Pa? Should the Deseret News/Mormon Times share tidbits such as these with the public in reporting on internet commentary about Brother Schryver's presentation?


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:29 pm 
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In my experience, the best possible response to this kind of hype is to take a polite "wait and see" attitude. Whatever one may feel about Will on a personal level, and admittedly he is the type of personality who seems to invite, or even deliberately provoke, extreme reactions in others (I am obviously speaking from experience), not rising to the bait is the wiser course.

First of all, regardless of the drama surrounding the personality of the presenter, it is the evidence and arguments that must stand on their own or fall. And clearly that will happen in time, not in one's reaction to advance kudos of Will's supposedly revolutionary position. As it stands, everything is so preliminary here. We have no idea exactly what it is the argument will be, whether it truly merits the praise, and how it will stand up to critical evaluations from unsympathetic or neutral observers.

Lastly, the contextualization of the findings--i.e., their significance within the Book of Abraham debate--is so far from being determined that both enthusiasm and outrage are incredibly premature. All of the jabs at Will ultimately play into his own designs. He has long sought to stir people up, and here is the payoff. You would think that what is probably an interesting presentation of limited applicability were the arrival of the (anti-)Christ. I for one would like to take everyone to task for providing a shameless self-promoter the kind of reward for his efforts he could have scarcely dreamed of.

As for that part of Will that is genuine scholar, I wish him all the best and eagerly look forward to hearing what he claims to have discovered.

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:34 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Trevor wrote:
In my experience, the best possible response to this kind of hype is to take a polite "wait and see" attitude. Whatever one may feel about Will on a personal level, and admittedly he is the type of personality who seems to invite, or even deliberately provoke, extreme reactions in others (I am obviously speaking from experience), not rising to the bait is the wiser course.

First of all, regardless of the drama surrounding the personality of the presenter, it is the evidence and arguments that must stand on their own or fall. And clearly that will happen in time, not in one's reaction to advance kudos of Will's supposedly revolutionary position. As it stands, everything is so preliminary here. We have no idea exactly what it is the argument will be, whether it truly merits the praise, and how it will stand up to critical evaluations from unsympathetic or neutral observers.

Lastly, the contextualization of the findings--i.e., their significance within the Book of Abraham debate--is so far from being determined that both enthusiasm and outrage are incredibly premature. All of the jabs at Will ultimately play into his own designs. He has long sought to stir people up, and here is the payoff. You would think that what is probably an interesting presentation of limited applicability were the arrival of the (anti-)Christ. I for one would like to take everyone to task for providing a shameless self-promoter the kind of reward for his efforts he could have scarcely dreamed of.

As for that part of Will that is a genuine scholar, I wish him all the best and eagerly look forward to hearing what he claims to have discovered.


I agree with what you have been saying in this thread. My comments are about the cheerleaders, and about complaining about poisoning the well against Schryver's presentation while poisoning the well against future scrutiny of it at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:41 pm 
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This is the first time I've seen any kind of buzz about the FAIR conference. Whether or not Will delivers a "game changer", the build up has been a brilliant way to get people talking about it.

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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Darth J wrote:

I agree with what you have been saying in this thread. My comments are about the cheerleaders, and about complaining about poisoning the well against Schryver's presentation while poisoning the well against future scrutiny of it at the same time.

Has someone other than myself said this...you have not seem me cheerleading. Let's wait and see if there is something to cheer about.


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:10 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Pa Pa wrote:
Darth J wrote:

I agree with what you have been saying in this thread. My comments are about the cheerleaders, and about complaining about poisoning the well against Schryver's presentation while poisoning the well against future scrutiny of it at the same time.

Has someone other than myself said this...you have not seem me cheerleading. Let's wait and see if there is something to cheer about.


I was talking to Trevor about my comments overall, not only on this thread.

But what do you say, Pa Pa? Shouldn't FAIR be proud of its new de facto point man? Since the Deseret News decided to talk about internet buzz about Schryver, don't you think that they should tell the whole story?

You know, stuff like this:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9005&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

After all, as you explained in your quote, "In general usage, poisoning the well is the provision of any information that may produce a biased result. For example, if a woman tells her friend, 'I think I might buy this beautiful dress', then asks how it looks, she has 'poisoned the well', as her previous comment could affect her friend's response."

What about poisoning the well by withholding information in order to shape someone's public image? Is that okay?


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:26 pm 
At least six Book of Abraham threads going on at page one of MormonDiscussions.com, and three on Will Schryver about a presentation he hasn’t even given.

I’m really not sure what all this obsession about the Book of Abraham and Spalding is. For those who have settled in their minds that the Church isn’t true isn’t this all much ado about nothing. Are we trying to convince Mormons the Church isn’t true, or ourselves?

Nevertheless, carry on.....


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 Post subject: Re: "Poisoning the Well" Don't Drink The Water, "WILL"!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:34 pm 
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I can't believe a reputable newspaper has gotten involved in this stupidity.

Good grief. This kind of hyperbole is expected of the MAD folk... but the DN? What idiot editor let that one go by?

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