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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 am 
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Even more evidence for the Book of Mormon taking place in Italy:

1) Lawyers? Seems a poor fit for ancient Mesoamerica, but perfectly fits the Roman world. The Romans were arguably among the most legally minded of all peoples. Lawyers, lawsuits, courts, etc. were a fixture of life in ancient Italy.

2) People distinguished by their chances for learning? Acquaintance with literature, philosophy, and history were highly prized among the Roman elite as marks of a truly civilized person.

3) Precious metals used for coinage? Not in ancient America as far as we know, but ubiquitous in the Roman world. I myself have a collection of ancient Roman coins. Who knows how many Nephites handled the very sestertius that I am looking at right now on my desk!

4) Title of Liberty / Republican vs. Monarchy forms of government? Again seems out of place in 1st century B.C. Americas but is a bullseye for 1st century B.C. Italy. In Italy during that precise time we observe a great struggle between the supporters of the ancient liberties of the Roman Republic and the “king-men” who supported the likes of Julius Caesar and Augustus.

5) Debates about infant baptism in 400 A.D.? Hard to find any evidence that infant baptism was a pressing concern or even practiced in ancient Mesoamerica. What about Italy? Yes! We know that the abomination of infant baptism was already a widespread practice by that time, although some Christians, like the prophet Mormon, continued to argue that baptism should be delayed until later in life.

6) Concern about preserving the proper prayers for administering the Sacrament in 400 A.D.? Again, no evidence for this in ancient Mesoamerica. But we do have evidence that the sacrament prayers were already corrupted by the 3rd century in Italy. The so-called “Apostolic Tradition”, supposedly written by Hippolytus of Rome, contains the following apostate prayer for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper:

“We give thanks to you God, through your beloved son Jesus Christ, whom you sent to us in former times as Savior, Redeemer, and Messenger of your Will, who is your inseparable Word, through whom you made all, and in whom you were well-pleased, whom you sent from heaven into the womb of a virgin, who, being conceived within her, was made flesh, and appeared as your Son, born of the Holy Spirit and the virgin. It is he who, fulfilling your will and acquiring for you a holy people, extended his hands in suffering, in order to liberate from sufferings those who believe in you. Who, when he was delivered to voluntary suffering, in order to dissolve death, and break the chains of the devil, and tread down hell, and bring the just to the light, and set the limit, and manifest the resurrection, taking the bread, and giving thanks to you, said, ‘Take, eat, for this is my body which is broken for you.’ Likewise the chalice, saying, ‘This is my blood which is shed for you. Whenever you do this, do this memory of me.’

Therefore, remembering his death and resurrection, we offer to you the bread and the chalice, giving thanks to you, who has made us worthy to stand before you and to serve as your priests. And we pray that you would send your Holy Spirit to the oblation of your Holy Church. In their gathering together, give to all those who partake of your holy mysteries the fullness of the Holy Spirit, toward the strengthening of the faith in truth, that we may praise you and glorify you, through your son Jesus Christ, through whom to you be glory and honor, Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit, in your Holy Church, now and throughout the ages of the ages. Amen.”

Compare the above with what is found in Moroni chapters 4 & 5 and it’s pretty clear why Moroni found it necessary to inscribe the true sacrament prayers onto the Golden Plates.

7) Moroni quoting the Epistles of Paul? Anti-Mormon critics are always bringing up how Moroni apparently quotes the apostle Paul when he writes about faith, hope, and charity. How could an ancient American have had access to Paul’s writings? But this problem vanishes away once we understand that the Book of Mormon took place in Italy. We know for certain that the epistles of Paul were available and read in 5th century Italy.

8) Great battle at Cumorah and downfall of the Nephite civilization in the late 4th century? To date LDS apologists who insist on an ancient American setting for the Book of Mormon have searched in vain for a plausible site for this epic battle. But once our focus shifts to the ancient Mediterranean we have a perfect candidate: the battle of Adrianople. Although it did not take place in Italy itself, the loss of this battle to the Goths (Lamanites?) was a catastrophe to Roman civilization. To quote the illustrious Wikipedia, “the battle is often considered the start of the final collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century.” Note also that the footnotes in the Book of Mormon give an approximate date of 385 A.D. for the final battle at Cumorah – the battle of Adrianople took place in 378 A.D. Coincidence? You be the judge. How could a practically illiterate farm boy in rural New York have possibly been acquainted in such detail with the history of the later Roman Empire? Remember that the Book of Mormon was written long before Wikipedia and Google came online.

9) A period of great peace and prosperity followed by a period of strife and persecution of true Christians? It’s hard to find a good match for this in what we know of ancient American history. What about Italy? Once again we have a match! The great Pax Romana of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. corresponds almost perfectly with what we read in 4th Nephi (taking into account some exaggeration and artistic license on Mormon’s part). In 4th Nephi we also see this period of peace breaking down in the 3rd century A.D., which is precisely when the Roman world was troubled by civil wars and great internal instability. We also have in that same time period evidence of wide scale persecution of Christian believers, first under the emperor Decius and later under the emperor Diocletian. If you believe that an uneducated farm boy in the backwoods of America was also an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you!

So in conclusion the evidence for an Italian setting for the Book of Mormon is overwhelming and can no longer be ignored. I predict that in the next few years we will hear general conference talks on this very subject. Then the Book of Mormon will turn from being a stumbling block for belief to taking its rightful place as the best evidence for the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:52 am 
God
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Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location, could be a game-changer if presented at the 2020 FairMormon Conference to be held at the Square Dance Heritage Center in Mapleton Utah.

You could have a panel of cranks arguing against it afterward, but they would only be able to offer their testimonies rather than evidence to sustain their positions.

The most effective rebuttal would come from Dr. Louis Midgley, who would be armed with a bag of prunes to throw at Darth J, provided Dr. Midgley could find audience members with enough strength and aim to reach the stage.

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 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:49 am 
God
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So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.

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Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


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