It is currently Thu Feb 27, 2020 3:02 pm

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 am 
Nursery

Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:47 pm
Posts: 1
Even more evidence for the Book of Mormon taking place in Italy:

1) Lawyers? Seems a poor fit for ancient Mesoamerica, but perfectly fits the Roman world. The Romans were arguably among the most legally minded of all peoples. Lawyers, lawsuits, courts, etc. were a fixture of life in ancient Italy.

2) People distinguished by their chances for learning? Acquaintance with literature, philosophy, and history were highly prized among the Roman elite as marks of a truly civilized person.

3) Precious metals used for coinage? Not in ancient America as far as we know, but ubiquitous in the Roman world. I myself have a collection of ancient Roman coins. Who knows how many Nephites handled the very sestertius that I am looking at right now on my desk!

4) Title of Liberty / Republican vs. Monarchy forms of government? Again seems out of place in 1st century B.C. Americas but is a bullseye for 1st century B.C. Italy. In Italy during that precise time we observe a great struggle between the supporters of the ancient liberties of the Roman Republic and the “king-men” who supported the likes of Julius Caesar and Augustus.

5) Debates about infant baptism in 400 A.D.? Hard to find any evidence that infant baptism was a pressing concern or even practiced in ancient Mesoamerica. What about Italy? Yes! We know that the abomination of infant baptism was already a widespread practice by that time, although some Christians, like the prophet Mormon, continued to argue that baptism should be delayed until later in life.

6) Concern about preserving the proper prayers for administering the Sacrament in 400 A.D.? Again, no evidence for this in ancient Mesoamerica. But we do have evidence that the sacrament prayers were already corrupted by the 3rd century in Italy. The so-called “Apostolic Tradition”, supposedly written by Hippolytus of Rome, contains the following apostate prayer for the celebration of the Lord’s Supper:

“We give thanks to you God, through your beloved son Jesus Christ, whom you sent to us in former times as Savior, Redeemer, and Messenger of your Will, who is your inseparable Word, through whom you made all, and in whom you were well-pleased, whom you sent from heaven into the womb of a virgin, who, being conceived within her, was made flesh, and appeared as your Son, born of the Holy Spirit and the virgin. It is he who, fulfilling your will and acquiring for you a holy people, extended his hands in suffering, in order to liberate from sufferings those who believe in you. Who, when he was delivered to voluntary suffering, in order to dissolve death, and break the chains of the devil, and tread down hell, and bring the just to the light, and set the limit, and manifest the resurrection, taking the bread, and giving thanks to you, said, ‘Take, eat, for this is my body which is broken for you.’ Likewise the chalice, saying, ‘This is my blood which is shed for you. Whenever you do this, do this memory of me.’

Therefore, remembering his death and resurrection, we offer to you the bread and the chalice, giving thanks to you, who has made us worthy to stand before you and to serve as your priests. And we pray that you would send your Holy Spirit to the oblation of your Holy Church. In their gathering together, give to all those who partake of your holy mysteries the fullness of the Holy Spirit, toward the strengthening of the faith in truth, that we may praise you and glorify you, through your son Jesus Christ, through whom to you be glory and honor, Father and Son, with the Holy Spirit, in your Holy Church, now and throughout the ages of the ages. Amen.”

Compare the above with what is found in Moroni chapters 4 & 5 and it’s pretty clear why Moroni found it necessary to inscribe the true sacrament prayers onto the Golden Plates.

7) Moroni quoting the Epistles of Paul? Anti-Mormon critics are always bringing up how Moroni apparently quotes the apostle Paul when he writes about faith, hope, and charity. How could an ancient American have had access to Paul’s writings? But this problem vanishes away once we understand that the Book of Mormon took place in Italy. We know for certain that the epistles of Paul were available and read in 5th century Italy.

8) Great battle at Cumorah and downfall of the Nephite civilization in the late 4th century? To date LDS apologists who insist on an ancient American setting for the Book of Mormon have searched in vain for a plausible site for this epic battle. But once our focus shifts to the ancient Mediterranean we have a perfect candidate: the battle of Adrianople. Although it did not take place in Italy itself, the loss of this battle to the Goths (Lamanites?) was a catastrophe to Roman civilization. To quote the illustrious Wikipedia, “the battle is often considered the start of the final collapse of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century.” Note also that the footnotes in the Book of Mormon give an approximate date of 385 A.D. for the final battle at Cumorah – the battle of Adrianople took place in 378 A.D. Coincidence? You be the judge. How could a practically illiterate farm boy in rural New York have possibly been acquainted in such detail with the history of the later Roman Empire? Remember that the Book of Mormon was written long before Wikipedia and Google came online.

9) A period of great peace and prosperity followed by a period of strife and persecution of true Christians? It’s hard to find a good match for this in what we know of ancient American history. What about Italy? Once again we have a match! The great Pax Romana of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. corresponds almost perfectly with what we read in 4th Nephi (taking into account some exaggeration and artistic license on Mormon’s part). In 4th Nephi we also see this period of peace breaking down in the 3rd century A.D., which is precisely when the Roman world was troubled by civil wars and great internal instability. We also have in that same time period evidence of wide scale persecution of Christian believers, first under the emperor Decius and later under the emperor Diocletian. If you believe that an uneducated farm boy in the backwoods of America was also an expert on the history of the Roman Empire, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you!

So in conclusion the evidence for an Italian setting for the Book of Mormon is overwhelming and can no longer be ignored. I predict that in the next few years we will hear general conference talks on this very subject. Then the Book of Mormon will turn from being a stumbling block for belief to taking its rightful place as the best evidence for the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:52 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 21515
Location: Koloburbia
Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location, could be a game-changer if presented at the 2020 FairMormon Conference to be held at the Square Dance Heritage Center in Mapleton Utah.

You could have a panel of cranks arguing against it afterward, but they would only be able to offer their testimonies rather than evidence to sustain their positions.

The most effective rebuttal would come from Dr. Louis Midgley, who would be armed with a bag of prunes to throw at Darth J, provided Dr. Midgley could find audience members with enough strength and aim to reach the stage.

_________________
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:49 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:04 am
Posts: 5976
Location: Cassius University Hall of Mirrors - Its Symbolic of Something Significant I Just Know it!
So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.

_________________
Is Midgely serious? Peterson's blog is a patty-cake, surface only, all too frequently plagiarized bit of ephemeral nonsense. Why would anyone suppose avatars must be real? Midgley has lost his tiny little mind. Maybe he can go over to never-neverland and harass Peter Pan for not really knowing how to fly. -Lemmie-


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 1:53 pm 
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:19 pm
Posts: 525
Location: HSB 201
I wonder how much more convincing the Dale’s article would be if it drew upon Italian heritage civilizations instead of Mayan.

No doubt the correspondences would be more and therefore the lucky guessing 10^200 more impressive!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:02 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 pm
Posts: 1121
My eye was just caught by the Friberg painting on the first page of this thread. The archers aren't just buff. They have weirdly thick forearms like toned-down Popeye. I've heard that longbowmen developed occupational deformities but I don't think it mainly affected forearms. Also many of the dudes appear to be lobbing arrows over a wall at enemies they can't see while that one guy in the red cape stands up there trying to get shot. Does the Book of Mormon by any chance record these people as losing this battle?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 4:34 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 7:40 pm
Posts: 8244
Location: What does the fox say?
Philo Sofee wrote:
So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.


There is a guy over on the mad board who continually posits a Malay peninsula setting. Much better fit than Central America - culture had metal working and horses.

_________________
It is better to be a warrior in a garden, than a gardener at war.

Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 5:37 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:15 am
Posts: 3076
Location: OreIda
The location of the Book of Mormon is in the largest nation in the universe, the imagination.

_________________
aka Pokatator joined Oct 26, 2006 and permanently banned from MAD Nov 6, 2006
"Stop being such a damned coward and use your real name to own your position."
"That's what he gets for posting in his own name."
2 different threads same day 2 hours apart Yohoo Bat 12/1/2015


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:08 pm 
Founder & Visionary
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm
Posts: 14024
Location: Shady Acres Status: MODERATOR
Physics Guy wrote:
Also many of the dudes appear to be lobbing arrows over a wall at enemies they can't see while that one guy in the red cape stands up there trying to get shot. Does the Book of Mormon by any chance record these people as losing this battle?

You realize that that's a painting of Samuel the Lamanite preaching to the Nephites--and the Nephites attempting to kill him as he does so--and not a painting of an actual battle, right?

_________________
"Belief is driven by psychology, not intelligence."

--Analytics, 09-11-2019


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Tue Oct 15, 2019 10:54 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:12 am
Posts: 1647
Location: Utah County
SteelHead wrote:
There is a guy over on the mad board who continually posits a Malay peninsula setting. Much better fit than Central America - culture had metal working and horses.

I've tried to follow the mad board threads on this, but logic is just crazy. I understand the motivation though. American continent theory has too much to overcome. Linguistics problems, no match for any flora fauna, no archaeology support, and the DNA issues.

The problem with Malay or Italy is that it's a hella cold swim to get the plates to upstate New York.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:04 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 pm
Posts: 1121
I recognized that Friberg's picture had to be a depiction of the famous Book of Mormon event with the guy on a wall preaching. I was fuzzy on the details of that event, though. Besides not knowing the guy's name I was unclear on which direction he was supposed to be facing and how he was supposed to have gotten up on top of such a high wall. I thought it looked as though he was facing outwards and I figured he had gotten up there by climbing the stairs. But I guess instead he's facing inwards, preaching at the guys in the city who are trying to shoot him with arrows. How he made it to the top of the wall from outside is a puzzle.

From the fact that their wall allows a rando outsider to hop right up onto it, and that they can't seem to hit that guy from short range, I still don't think these city archers are heading for military success.

And their arms are still weird.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:21 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 4:38 pm
Posts: 1121
The largest annual physics conference in the world is the March Meeting of the American Physical Society. By an unusual but longstanding tradition it has zero standards for conference presentations. Anybody who submits an abstract—and pays their conference fee—can present their work, whatever it is. Formerly everyone could give a ten-minute talk, which was and is the usual length for all but keynote addresses, but even now you can always present a poster, and the poster sessions are an important part of the meeting.

No guarantees are offered about scheduling, however. The practice is to lump all the crackpot presentations together in one session or one corner of a poster hall, so that nobody will have to deal with any crackpots unless they choose. Some people like to go there and listen respectfully just to get a smile, especially because by another unusual tradition for American academic conferences the APS poster sessions include free beer. Towards the end of the session visiting the crackpots sometimes seems like a good idea.

Perhaps the FairMormon Conference could consider a similar policy. It only requires that the proportion of crackpots among the attendees be very small, and that the serious researchers can easily distinguish themselves from the crackpots.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Ancient Italy: The true Book of Mormon location
PostPosted: Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:05 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 9:48 pm
Posts: 3072
Philo Sofee wrote:
So we have North America, Central American, South America, and Italy, and the Ancient Near East, and I have yet another location that might be plausible about where the Book of Mormon events took place. In Joseph Smith's head. And the cool thing is the evidence for this is the strongest of all. We have no physical evidence of anything in the Book of Mormon that can uniquely be called Lamanite, Nephite, Mulekite, or Jaredite. That is evidence itself that the proper location of the events that happened is inside Joseph's head.


I think you are taking the easy way out by saying Joseph Smith made it up. I am working on a model that I think will solve all the historicity problems. Using science and reasoning, like our good Brother Robert Smith always does over at MD&D (just ask him), I deduced that the only viable model is on the microscopic level. Think microscopic Nephites and Lamanites. When they crossed the sea, God must have caused a great shrinkage to happen and not just the George Costanza kind (sickos). So, the Nephites and Lamanites lived, fought, and died in a microscopic world somewhere in the heart of the Yucatan peninsula (give some points to our apologist brethren). Naturally, all the evidence for them disappeared because being microscopic means that it is easy for their remains to be consumed by the various microbes that live in the Yucatan. This explains the total lack of DNA evidence and the total lack of anything that would answer Dr. Jenkins' questions. Yes, I know it sounds crazy but that is what society always says about great discoveries that rock the establishment. Sure, making the claim that Joseph Smith invented the whole thing seems like the better conclusion, but faith needs to be preserved. Yes, microscopic Nephites is the future.

_________________
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 96 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot], reflexzero and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group