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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Quote:
...experiences have nothing to do with brain states....-MfBukowski

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:46 am 
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Tarski wrote:
Quote:
...experiences have nothing to do with brain states....-MfBukowski

yeah I said that. I don't even believe that myself but somehow my fingers typed that. I figured it would end up here, and good old Tarski never disappoints.

I took it back too.
I learned one thing: don't post when you are half asleep.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:15 am 
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mfbukowski wrote:
I learned one thing: don't post when you are half asleep.


But Image inside never sleeps, and Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 10:31 pm 
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mfbukowski wrote:
I learned one thing: don't post when you are half asleep.


Good you took it back. You are now absolved.

However, perhaps you might consider that it came out of your mouth because you are a bit too eager to put out these shocking "we all live in a dream" type statements.
Certainly there is a kernel of truth in contructivist, relativist sentiments and subjectivity is indeed puzzling and the topic demands that we be very careful and reexamine our intutitions and way of thinking to meet the challenge.

A good deal of what you say might be true in some metaphysically innocent sense.
In other words, I think you are quite often overreaching and in this case, the momentum just carried you right over the edge into silly land.

By the way, being half asleep is nothing compared to being on ambien. As I learned the hard way, that stuff can make a person post absolute dribble.

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when believers want to give their claims more weight, they dress these claims up in scientific terms. When believers want to belittle atheism or secular humanism, they call it a "religion". -Beastie

yesterday's Mormon doctrine is today's Mormon folklore.-Buffalo


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2012 11:01 am 
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Tarski wrote:
A good deal of what you say might be true in some metaphysically innocent sense.

Well I guess we shall see about that one. It's not like I am making this up- I wish it was, but it is all stolen from other people. The philosophy of subjectivity is pretty well established especially on the continent- I just like to use Nagel because he is obviously in the analytical tradition and more understandable to Americans, and James and Dewey are perceived as "old fashioned" because they are dead. Maybe I will do a thread on some of the phenomenologists to flesh out the subject- object distinction. Kevin I think was right that it I have been singing a one note song for a long time- but I do a lot of repeating because after all that's what preachers do. Not everyone reads the same thread.

The issue as I see it logically is that subjective and objective statements are different language games - any first person statement- a subjective statement- will never be logically equivalent to a second or third person statement. So "He has chemical x in his brain" (or any statement about observed phenomena) will never be logically equivalent to "He is feeling y".

So the point is, if they are not logically equivalent, there is some information contained in one statement that is not contained in the other. You could of course prove some inductive correlation - very strong correlation- but never equivalence. I think that is kind of the bottom line when philosophers talk about "qualia". For me "qualia" are what is NOT included in the physical description. I think. It is a logical, linguistic difference produced by a different point of view.

I mean even an empirical point of view implies an observer- a subject that makes the empirical observation which is subjective until he talks about it, and someone hears that, and now it is "out there". Every scientific discovery has a discoverer. It all starts in somebody's head first.

There is no observation without a point of view, and a brain to verbalize it. And once it is verbalized everyone else has access to that observation if they care to repeat it

I mean Tarski's comments come first from Tarski. What you are thinking about right now about how "wrong" this post is, is totally subjective and unique to your point of view. The fact that you think "Bukowski is wrong" is a subjective judgement- some will agree with it and others won't.

At least that is what I think at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 4:55 pm 
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mfbukowski wrote:
yeah I said that. I don't even believe that myself but somehow my fingers typed that. I figured it would end up here, and good old Tarski never disappoints.

I took it back too.
I learned one thing: don't post when you are half asleep.


Don’t let Tarski fool you, he’s proposed to no less than 7 people in chat, 3 of them being male, and promised me we’d ride motorcycles from Las Vegas to Brazil, all on ambein. Your slip up is child’s play to his night time antics.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 5:12 pm 
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Quite priceless.

Scott Lloyd wrote:
Deep in their hearts, lawyers must understand the pitfalls of the overly simplistic, too-short response. Else why would they write contracts and other documents laden with tons of verbiage designed to cover every contingency and close every loophole?

Perhaps they understand only too well. I told Jaybear on the other thread that insisting on a one-word response is predatory behavior.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Doctor Scratch wrote:
Quite priceless.

Scott Lloyd wrote:
Deep in their hearts, lawyers must understand the pitfalls of the overly simplistic, too-short response. Else why would they write contracts and other documents laden with tons of verbiage designed to cover every contingency and close every loophole?

Perhaps they understand only too well. I told Jaybear on the other thread that insisting on a one-word response is predatory behavior.


Jesus is notorious for his predatory behavior.

Matthew 5:37

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these comes from evil.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:20 am 
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Darth J wrote:
Matthew 5:37
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these comes from evil.

I've learned as a teacher that teaching of any valuable subject can begin two way:
- with the words "already the ancient greeks"
or
- citation from the bible

In the case of any subject of "digital something" I used Matt 5:37.

One of my favourites is Jeremiah 33:3 "Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not."
You could find this verse in every military radar technician's workbook in Hungary... Most of them are atheists, btw.

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:57 pm 
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Sorry, but I had to break the rules just this once, and bring something from this board, though nearly everything he posts deserves to be posted here.

ldsfaqs wrote:

Quote:
Would JFK have loved the Church, would the author of the book/movie ROOTS received an award from the Church if they thought it racist?


This guy is just pulling our leg, right?

In any event, he is indeed a treasure.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:07 pm 
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ldsfaqus wrote:
Would JFK have loved the Church, would the author of the book/movie ROOTS received an award from the Church if they thought it racist?

Are either of those claims factual?

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:21 pm 
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gramps wrote:
Sorry, but I had to break the rules just this once, and bring something from this board, though nearly everything he posts deserves to be posted here.

ldsfaqs wrote:

Quote:
Would JFK have loved the Church, would the author of the book/movie ROOTS received an award from the Church if they thought it racist?


This guy is just pulling our leg, right?

In any event, he is indeed a treasure.


In 1963, JFK gave a diplomatic and fairly generic speech at the Tabernacle where he mentioned the trials, tribulations and successes of the Mormon people. What this has to do with "loving" the church or absolving it of "racism" is unclear.

Some kind of Osmond Family based organization called the One Heart Foundation (among several other titles) regularly hands out "Family Awards" to all kinds of different people and organizations. The Land’s End Company, Ogden Pioneer Days, Glenn Beck, Celine Dion, Reba McEntire, Paul McCartney, Mr. Rodgers, and Jerry Falwell are examples of the people honored for their presumed "family values." Alex Haley's brother George, the former US Ambassador to Gambia, was also given one of the polished obelisks, "on behalf of his brother." As Alex Haley was deceased at the time, his thoughts on receiving the award are were not available.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:53 am 
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Blixa wrote:
Some kind of Osmond Family based organization called the One Heart Foundation (among several other titles) regularly hands out "Family Awards" to all kinds of different people and organizations. The Land’s End Company, Ogden Pioneer Days, Glenn Beck, Celine Dion, Reba McEntire, Paul McCartney, Mr. Rodgers, and Jerry Falwell are examples of the people honored for their presumed "family values." Alex Haley's brother George, the former US Ambassador to Gambia, was also given one of the polished obelisks, "on behalf of his brother." As Alex Haley was deceased at the time, his thoughts on receiving the award are were not available.
If I were George Haley - or Alex - I would have rejected anything put me on the same platform as Jerry Falwell.

*********************************************
BTW I have a special relation to "Roots". It was broadcasted in Hungary in the early 80's. I didn't watch it - I hate TV series in general. Years later I've read it in English, then in Hungarian. Last year I have downloaded and watched the whole series...

I think it is a good description of the history of slavery, far better than Uncle Tom's Cabin.

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- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:25 am 
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This may be the wrong place to post this, but I just got threadbanned over at the mad house within 24 hours of registration.

Banned without warning for an offense not listed in the guidelines.

They seem to get a bit touchy when you assist one or many of their anointed in making fools of themselves after catching them flagrantly making misquotes of false factoids used to prove a point while creating miraculous implications.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 12:53 pm 
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SteelHead wrote:
This may be the wrong place to post this, but I just got threadbanned over at the mad house within 24 hours of registration.

Banned without warning for an offense not listed in the guidelines.

They seem to get a bit touchy when you assist one or many of their anointed in making fools of themselves after catching them flagrantly making misquotes of false factoids used to prove a point while creating miraculous implications.


For those who want the context for the banning, here is the discussion:

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/564 ... e__st__220

SteelHead is posting as "aleph", and get's banned from the thread for post #230.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:47 pm 
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From my interaction with that board I have concluded that there are a lot of "tribal knowledge" or better "the unwritten order of things" rules regarding etiquette in that bailiwick. Then again I am in no way a trained academic debater and may have been just violating some "understood" rules.

Either way the only reason I kept repeating what I felt was the implication, was in defense of my opinion. Which is apparently sufficient for getting me thread banned without a warning and without seeing said offense in the guideline's list of offenses.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:34 pm 
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All I can say I watching that thread continue to evolve is....

thanks cinepro!

Steelhead.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:33 pm 
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You have got to be kidding me...................

Altersteve is now saying on the thread (in response to Cinepro):
Quote:
Probably the second, but I realize the flaws with that statement now. Ultimately, all I was trying to point out is that membership statistics (whether in Mongolia or worldwide) cannot be used to determine the truthfulness of the Church or the Book of Mormon. Saying, "The Church is true because it has 14 million members" is a fallacious statement; the correct thing to say is that "The Church has 14 million members because it's true."


He makes the concession that the statistics prove nothing and then contradicts himself. Chewbacca is a wookie. Look at the monkey. Kerplow!

O, that I were an angel that I could reply to a ridiculous assertion:

And by logical extension: The 7th Day Adventist Church has 17 million members in the same time frame because it is "more true".

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:47 pm 
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They really need to change the name of that site. There is no dialog nor discussion that is not the group telling itself how great and relevant it is.

I get in a thread and note that it is the worst kind of academic navel gazing imaginable as it is a topic that is not even remotely provable. Anything said in regards to the topic is pure speculation.

I then point out to an anointed that his English does not parse and ask him to support his assertion. I was fairly polite the whole time but I did label the topic an exercise of mental masturbation.

Bam.... Full on banned and site banned. That will take me all of 2 minutes to bypass. But is tedious from my phone. I will get on tonight and let them know what I think.

Boy they are an insular group of thin skins over there.

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:49 am 
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SteelHead wrote:
... I was fairly polite the whole time but I did label the topic an exercise of mental masturbation.

Bam.... Full on banned and site banned. That will take me all of 2 minutes to bypass. But is tedious from my phone. I will get on tonight and let them know what I think.

Boy they are an insular group of thin skins over there.


That particular metaphor was essential to your argument, was it?

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 Post subject: Re: The Definitive MADhouse Quote Page.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:06 pm 
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zerinus wrote:
Good science is one that ultimately leads to the discovery of truth, not to maximum consensus among scientists; and truth is ultimately knowable by revelation--especially the kind that comes though a prophet.


http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/566 ... 1209081281

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