Former MADB poster that has turned

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thews
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by thews »

Runtu wrote:
That's fine, thews. I recognize that you come at this from a polemical Christian stance. What bugs me is that you can't allow for others not to take the same stance. You can believe what you want about lies and who is or isn't Christian, but you don't have the right to condemn others for being phony just because they don't agree with you.


I’m not claiming others are being phony because they don’t agree with me, I’m accusing others of being phony because they are. Trevor is constantly making left-handed comments from a pseudo pro-Mormon position and it adds distortion. Knowing that people like Mike Reed and Trevor don’t believe in the Book of Mormon yet still champion its cause gets my goat, and that where my perspective comes from. They truly are posers, because how can someone like Mike Reed, who is not a Mormon, claim Joe Smith’s magical cane is a “Christian” object? That makes no sense whatsoever. I understand Brant’s position because he believes in Mormon doctrine, but to champion the cause you don’t believe in and look for some new “cultural Mormon” label to sprout some new distortion is done so with intent. Who is the target audience?

Runtu wrote:Speaking for myself only, you don't necessarily deal with facts but rather see the facts from a polemical and ideological position, hence the otherwise mystifying harping on the word "occult." Just about everyone else here sees that insisting on such pejorative terms doesn't help anything, least of all your case against Mormonism. It just cements in my mind (and I don't think I'm alone) that you are a completely unyielding dogmatist and not in the least interested in discussing facts. But that's just me.



Ok, it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I completely disagree. If one argues that Jews are Christians they don’t need a passion to make the argument, though they probably would if they tried. You and I can agree that a Jew is not a Christian… correct? The label is simply a function of the definition of the words. When it comes to seer stones, to claim magical properties of the tools of a glass-looker are “Christian” would fall under the same situation. Seer stones are Mormon, and Mormons claim their faith is based on the Christian God, so it’s ok to claim seer stones for hire are not of the occult. This isn’t my opinion, but rather the most correct way to define what is or isn’t occult magic. If you, as a non-Christian, don't really care one way or the other, then it doesn’t warrant much attention, but I do. Do you see how logic dictates that an object used for hire (like a crystal ball) is of black magic? The entire process of money-digging and its rituals to appease evil spirits (bleeding ghosts) who supposedly guarded treasure, which the Smith family was into, is centered around black magic. Again, this is not my opinion, but by acknowledging the facts clearly defines seer stones and village “seers” for hire as what they are by definition, which is to hire someone using occult objects to “see” something; either your future, or treasure for $14 a month. If someone gets paid, the act of doing something for hire removes religion from the argument. My argument centers around what the “Christian God” encompasses, and I contend that magic, when someone pays $14 a month for it, is not of the Christian God. Do you see why I don’t agree with you?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

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thews wrote:I’m not claiming others are being phony because they don’t agree with me, I’m accusing others of being phony because they are. Trevor is constantly making left-handed comments from a pseudo pro-Mormon position and it adds distortion. Knowing that people like Mike Reed and Trevor don’t believe in the Book of Mormon yet still champion its cause gets my goat, and that where my perspective comes from. They truly are posers, because how can someone like Mike Reed, who is not a Mormon, claim Joe Smith’s magical cane is a “Christian” object? That makes no sense whatsoever. I understand Brant’s position because he believes in Mormon doctrine, but to champion the cause you don’t believe in a look for some new “cultural Mormon” label to sprout some new distortion is done so with intent.


We aren't posers, thews. We are scholars. We can discuss things appreciatively without believing in them. It is what we do. I write about ancient Roman religion, yet I am not an ancient Roman. I don't believe in Jupiter. Does that make me a hypocrite?

I personally don't accept that your definition of "Christian" is authoritative. I think you are full of crap. You stand on no firmer ground than anyone else in this conversation, and all you bring is your naïve arrogance coupled with a willingness to insult others. Congratulations.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Doctor Scratch »

thews wrote:Your verbal assault on Scratch is just another piece of the mixing of truth/fiction in which you state pro-Mormon positions when you don't believe in it.


Trevor verbally assaulted me? I'd like to see it! Would you kindly supply a link?
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Jersey Girl »

Occult....


thews,

This is the definition that you posted not long ago. I saw it either on this or another thread.

occult
adj [ɒˈkʌlt ˈɒkʌlt]
1.
a. of or characteristic of magical, mystical, or supernatural arts, phenomena, or influences
b. (as noun) the occult
2. beyond ordinary human understanding
3. secret or esoteric



By the above definition, CHRISTIANITY can be described as occultish. Do you not see it?

You cannot continue throwing this word around and seriously maintain your position against Mormonism.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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thews
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by thews »

Trevor wrote:
We aren't posers, thews. We are scholars. We can discuss things appreciatively without believing in them. It is what we do. I write about ancient Roman religion, yet I am not an ancient Roman. I don't believe in Jupiter. Does that make me a hypocrite?


What makes you a hypocrite Trevor is that you make pro-Mormon arguments when you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon. If it’s a hobby of yours, then I guess you could use your analogy, but when you claimed there is “truth” in Mormonism, that’s what made you a hypocrite. Just tell me there is no truth in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, or anything Joseph Smith claimed he received from God. If you find good things in the philosophy of Joseph Smith, then that’s different from “truth”.


Trevor wrote:I personally don't accept that your definition of "Christian" is authoritative. I think you are full of crap. You stand on no firmer ground than anyone else in this conversation, and all you bring is your naïve arrogance coupled with a willingness to insult others. Congratulations.


You are so damn two-faced it's sick. Is Jersey Girl gonna come rush to help you again with the hot air of some windbag who thinks her mannish persona has the right to tell others what to do? You throw out your "hot Carl" insults and then claim others insult... do you see the hypocrisy here Trevor? My religion is my own, I don't believe in Satan, Hell, the flood, nor rides in the stomach of a whale. Am I right? It only matters to me. When it comes to facts though Trevor, it is either true, or it is not true. Do you get that part... about the facts?
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths

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thews
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by thews »

Jersey Girl wrote:Occult....


thews,

This is the definition that you posted not long ago. I saw it either on this or another thread.

occult
adj [ɒˈkʌlt ˈɒkʌlt]
1.
a. of or characteristic of magical, mystical, or supernatural arts, phenomena, or influences
b. (as noun) the occult
2. beyond ordinary human understanding
3. secret or esoteric



By the above definition, CHRISTIANITY can be described as occultish. Do you not see it?

You cannot continue throwing this word around and seriously maintain your position against Mormonism.


Guess what windbag :highfiver:, you aren't the boss of me and I don't give a rat's ass what you think about me, so let Trevor finish his own arguments. Regarding this topic, there are threads to discuss these issues.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Jersey Girl »

Jersey Girl wrote:Occult....


thews,

This is the definition that you posted not long ago. I saw it either on this or another thread.

occult
adj [ɒˈkʌlt ˈɒkʌlt]
1.
a. of or characteristic of magical, mystical, or supernatural arts, phenomena, or influences
b. (as noun) the occult
2. beyond ordinary human understanding
3. secret or esoteric



By the above definition, CHRISTIANITY can be described as occultish. Do you not see it?

You cannot continue throwing this word around and seriously maintain your position against Mormonism.


thews wrote:Guess what windbag :highfiver:, you aren't the boss of me and I don't give a rat's ass what you think about me, so let Trevor finish his own arguments. Regarding this topic, there are threads to discuss these issues.


If it's on the thread, it's fair game. You brought it up yourself,

This isn’t my opinion, but rather the most correct way to define what is or isn’t occult magic.


so kiss my ass.

Once again, you fail to respond to the issue when it is put before your very eyes.

You do not want to engage in thought, thews. You aren't here to learn, think or communicate.

You are here to shoot and even at that, you fail miserably to take aim.
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Runtu »

thews wrote:I’m not claiming others are being phony because they don’t agree with me, I’m accusing others of being phony because they are. Trevor is constantly making left-handed comments from a pseudo pro-Mormon position and it adds distortion. Knowing that people like Mike Reed and Trevor don’t believe in the Book of Mormon yet still champion its cause gets my goat, and that where my perspective comes from. They truly are posers, because how can someone like Mike Reed, who is not a Mormon, claim Joe Smith’s magical cane is a “Christian” object? That makes no sense whatsoever. I understand Brant’s position because he believes in Mormon doctrine, but to champion the cause you don’t believe in and look for some new “cultural Mormon” label to sprout some new distortion is done so with intent. Who is the target audience?


Then we see it differently. The idea that either Trevor or Mike is championing the cause of Mormonism is ludicrous.

Runtu wrote:Ok, it’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it, but I completely disagree. If one argues that Jews are Christians they don’t need a passion to make the argument, though they probably would if they tried. You and I can agree that a Jew is not a Christian… correct? The label is simply a function of the definition of the words. When it comes to seer stones, to claim magical properties of the tools of a glass-looker are “Christian” would fall under the same situation. Seer stones are Mormon, and Mormons claim their faith is based on the Christian God, so it’s ok to claim seer stones for hire are not of the occult. This isn’t my opinion, but rather the most correct way to define what is or isn’t occult magic. If you, as a non-Christian, don't really care one way or the other, then it doesn’t warrant much attention, but I do. Do you see how logic dictates that an object used for hire (like a crystal ball) is of black magic? The entire process of money-digging and its rituals to appease evil spirits (bleeding ghosts) who supposedly guarded treasure, which the Smith family was into, is centered around black magic. Again, this is not my opinion, but by acknowledging the facts clearly defines seer stones and village “seers” for hire as what they are by definition, which is to hire someone using occult objects to “see” something; either your future, or treasure for $14 a month. If someone gets paid, the act of doing something for hire removes religion from the argument. My argument centers around what the “Christian God” encompasses, and I contend that magic, when someone pays $14 a month for it, is not of the Christian God. Do you see why I don’t agree with you?


For the record, I do not believe people can find treasures by looking in a stone, but the attribution of "occultism" is purely in the eye of the beholder. Has there ever been a Judeochristian context for such activities? Yep. That's why the neat division you espouse between Christian and occult doesn't hold up so well. It isn't black and white.

Are Jews Christian? Depends on the Jews, I suppose. Again, if I'm an ethnic Jew who happens to be a Christian, am I a Jewish Christian? What if I'm a Christian who still celebrates the Passover? I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood, and it's difficult to make a broad, sweeping statement about Jewish people. My sister is a convert to Judaism, but she celebrates Christmas with us and still has some belief in Jesus. Is she Jewish? Christian? Neither?

That's the problem. You want everything to be black and white, truth or lie. But it's really your perception that determines your judgment on these issues. I've known Trevor and Mike for a long time, and I've never seen them do what you've accused them of doing. That their approach (as mine) allows for gray areas and middle ground doesn't make them posers. And your insistence that they follow your neat divisions just makes you seem that less interested in real discussion.

I don't have any ill will towards you, but I totally reject your rigid view of the world; it's the flip side of Will's worldview (which is why you agree with him), and neither is appealing or even interesting to me. That would explain why I've not commented on this issue until now. If that makes me a poser, so be it.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by asbestosman »

thews wrote:Is Jersey Girl gonna come rush to help you again with the hot air of some windbag who thinks her mannish persona has the right to tell others what to do?
"Mannish persona?" Did your mother ever tell you what to do and if so is she "mannish?" Both of my parents told me what to do, but they're not the only ones. My friends (both male and female) also occasionally tell me what to.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Darth J »

Runtu wrote:If that makes me a poser, so be it.


Runtu, if I may just briefly interject:

1. A "poser" is someone who wears Abercrombie & Fitch, has an iPhone, and goes to In-n-Out Burger.

2. A "poseur" is Droopy's way of dismissing someone who knows what they are talking about while Droopy does not.

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Runtu »

Darth J wrote:
Runtu wrote:If that makes me a poser, so be it.


Runtu, if I may just briefly interject:

1. A "poser" is someone who wears Abercrombie & Fitch, has an iPhone, and goes to In-n-Out Burger.

2. A "poseur" is Droopy's way of dismissing someone who knows what they are talking about while Droopy does not.


I'm quite aware of the distinction. "Poser" always strikes me as a rather 80s sort of term. But that's the term thews is using, so that's why I used it.

And as a native Southern Californian, I cannot abide your disrespect for In-N-Out, an icon of my youth. For shame.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Trevor »

Darth J wrote:1. A "poser" is someone who wears Abercrombie & Fitch, has an iPhone, and goes to In-n-Out Burger.


I love In-n-Out Burger. And I have an iPhone. I'm almost there!
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Darth J »

Trevor wrote:
Darth J wrote:1. A "poser" is someone who wears Abercrombie & Fitch, has an iPhone, and goes to In-n-Out Burger.


I love In-n-Out Burger. And I have an iPhone. I'm almost there!


You can do it! I know you can!

Abercrombie is the new Eddie Bauer!

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Darth J »

Runtu wrote:I'm quite aware of the distinction. "Poser" always strikes me as a rather 80s sort of term. But that's the term thews is using, so that's why I used it.

And as a native Southern Californian, I cannot abide your disrespect for In-N-Out, an icon of my youth. For shame.


I know. This was just a gratuitous slam on the two categories of people.

In-N-Out is a poser fad in Utah right now, like Krispy Kreme was a few years ago.

My California soft spot is for Jack-in-the-Box, because when I lived in San Diego and in the Bay Area, that's what we had. None of this supercilious In-N-Out stuff.

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Trevor »

Darth J wrote:Abercrombie is the new Eddie Bauer!


Sorry, hypocritical, disingenuous poser that I am, I just can't force myself to go there.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Trevor »

thews wrote:What makes you a hypocrite Trevor is that you make pro-Mormon arguments when you don’t believe in the Book of Mormon. If it’s a hobby of yours, then I guess you could use your analogy, but when you claimed there is “truth” in Mormonism, that’s what made you a hypocrite. Just tell me there is no truth in the Book of Mormon, the Book of Abraham, or anything Joseph Smith claimed he received from God. If you find good things in the philosophy of Joseph Smith, then that’s different from “truth”.


What exactly do you define as a "pro-Mormon argument"? One that allows Mormonism to be a legitimate religious tradition? One that advocates that people join Mormonism? What?

And, for the record, finding good things in a philosophy is considered finding truth, as it has been from the birth of philosophy. I just love arguing with uneducated doofuses who have an axe to grind.


Trevor wrote:My religion is my own, I don't believe in Satan, Hell, the flood, nor rides in the stomach of a whale. Am I right? It only matters to me. When it comes to facts though Trevor, it is either true, or it is not true. Do you get that part... about the facts?


Yeah. You don't want to be held accountable for you own beliefs while you assault others. This is your hypocrisy. Lame.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Trevor »

Darth J wrote:My California soft spot is for Jack-in-the-Box, because when I lived in San Diego and in the Bay Area, that's what we had. None of this supercilious In-N-Out stuff.


We used to get Jack-in-the-Box on the way home from Primary when I was a little kid. I loved it.

And, I used to live in San Diego for a short time.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by Runtu »

Darth J wrote:I know. This was just a gratuitous slam on the two categories of people.

In-N-Out is a poser fad in Utah right now, like Krispy Kreme was a few years ago.

My California soft spot is for Jack-in-the-Box, because when I lived in San Diego and in the Bay Area, that's what we had. None of this supercilious In-N-Out stuff.


My older brother and sister used to work at Jack In the Box when I was a kid, so we got a lot of free food then. Maybe it was just from eating too much of it, but I just don't have a lot of interest in that place.

And yes, I know that people here in Utah are going nuts over In-N-Out. I'm happier about the Rubio's that recently opened up in Orem and the Pollo Loco in American Fork. Cholesterol issues make In-N-Out something I can't eat often, so I don't.

Still the one place I always go when I go home to visit my parents is Neptune's Net in Malibu. I would drive all the way from Utah just to eat there.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by ttribe »

Trevor wrote:
Darth J wrote:My California soft spot is for Jack-in-the-Box, because when I lived in San Diego and in the Bay Area, that's what we had. None of this supercilious In-N-Out stuff.


We used to get Jack-in-the-Box on the way home from Primary when I was a little kid. I loved it.

And, I used to live in San Diego for a short time.

We have both JIB and In-N-Out here in the Phx area...I can clog my arteries at either one any time.

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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by beastie »

You are so damn two-faced it's sick. Is Jersey Girl gonna come rush to help you again with the hot air of some windbag who thinks her mannish persona has the right to tell others what to do?


My god, you are an ass.
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Re: Former MADB poster that has turned

Post by mfbukowski »

Abaddon wrote:I don't actively look at porn. It was just one of those moments where I felt like doing something "bad" before attending something where I had to be worthy.


So this is supposed to hurt the church in some way?

Do you think this is a healthy way of thinking for you?

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