“Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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thews
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Joseph Antley wrote:
thews wrote:In Joseph Antley’s arguments, key data about Joseph Smith's trial is disregarded in favor of favorable data.


What key data have I disregarded, and what favorable data have I disregarded it for?

I want to know your opinion of the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed he saw through his seer stone when he was hired to seek treasure Joseph (trial data posted from the Mawell Institute). Specifically, do you acknowledge the accounts?

Thanks.
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2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Mike Reed »

thews wrote:I apoloigize Mike for including you in this thread... It won't happen again.

Good.

I incorrectly assumed you had an opinion to offer based on your background... I was incorrect.

I do have opinions to offer. I simply choose not to offer them to you. Except for this one: I have no reason to believe that a profitable discourse can possibly happen with you.

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Mike Reed wrote:I do have opinions to offer. I simply choose not to offer them to you. Except for this one: I have no reason to believe that a profitable discourse can possibly happen with you.

No you don't Mike... you have nothing.. zero... zip. I'm not in third grade and if you wish to keep your opinion to yourself, spare us the drama.

Thanks.
2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
2 Tim 4:4 They will turn their ears away from the truth & turn aside to myths

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Brant Gardner »

thews wrote:I want to know your opinion of the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed he saw through his seer stone when he was hired to seek treasure Joseph (trial data posted from the Mawell Institute). Specifically, do you acknowledge the accounts?

I want to know about the accounts. I searched the Maxwell Institute online and didn't find anything about a dead Indian. I have read the available record of the 1826 trial and it isn't there.

It sounds like you are mis-referencing a number of sources and poorly using them at that. Please give me the specific reference so I can tell you what I think about some actual documentation rather than what you believe you remember of it.

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Joey »

Brant Gardner wrote:
thews wrote:I want to know your opinion of the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed he saw through his seer stone when he was hired to seek treasure Joseph (trial data posted from the Mawell Institute). Specifically, do you acknowledge the accounts?

I want to know about the accounts. I searched the Maxwell Institute online and didn't find anything about a dead Indian. I have read the available record of the 1826 trial and it isn't there.

It sounds like you are mis-referencing a number of sources and poorly using them at that. Please give me the specific reference so I can tell you what I think about some actual documentation rather than what you believe you remember of it.



pot black kettle calling the

Simply unbievable that you would ask for reference and reason from others and exempt yourself from the same! Ethnohypocrisy I presume!!!

Simply amazing!!!
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Joseph Antley »

Brant Gardner wrote:
thews wrote:I want to know your opinion of the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed he saw through his seer stone when he was hired to seek treasure Joseph (trial data posted from the Mawell Institute). Specifically, do you acknowledge the accounts?

I want to know about the accounts. I searched the Maxwell Institute online and didn't find anything about a dead Indian. I have read the available record of the 1826 trial and it isn't there.

It sounds like you are mis-referencing a number of sources and poorly using them at that. Please give me the specific reference so I can tell you what I think about some actual documentation rather than what you believe you remember of it.


I believe thews is referring to Marshall's account published in the 1873 Fraser's magazine, where it says:

Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know there it was; and that prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging, that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the man that witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money:


I don't have time to respond in detail to thews right now (I'm on my way out there door), but let is suffice for now to say that it's very, very amusing that he would criticize me of picking-and-choosing my sources.
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Joseph Antley wrote:I believe thews is referring to Marshall's account published in the 1873 Fraser's magazine, where it says:

Thanks. I had missed that one. I was sure that it had nothing to do with Stowell. I see that it has reference to earlier things - and I believe there is another account somewhat similar.

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Joseph Antley wrote:
Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know there it was; and that prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which] came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging, that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the man that witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money:


A couple of observations about this account of Jonathan Thompson's testimony.

How, if Joseph Smith had planted a plank several feet down, did it keep getting deeper as Thompson and Yeomans kept digging? (Unlike Joseph Smith, I don't think a dead Indian was buried by a treasure trunk and protecting it.)

If the testimony, per this account, is true, I think Joseph Smith was a charlatan. The time and place might have been feverish with such beliefs and actions. That doesn't mean some honest dupes were not parted from their money by those practicing these 'arts' for hire. It is too convenient that when the shovels struck the plank, Joseph Smith suddenly learned there was a dead Indian protecting the treasure trunk, that spooked the diggers and eventually caused them fear enough to stop digging.

This is not supposed to be a fictional novel or movie where the suspension of disbelief is the aim.
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Brant Gardner wrote:
thews wrote:I want to know your opinion of the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed he saw through his seer stone when he was hired to seek treasure Joseph (trial data posted from the Mawell Institute). Specifically, do you acknowledge the accounts?

I want to know about the accounts. I searched the Maxwell Institute online and didn't find anything about a dead Indian. I have read the available record of the 1826 trial and it isn't there.

It sounds like you are mis-referencing a number of sources and poorly using them at that. Please give me the specific reference so I can tell you what I think about some actual documentation rather than what you believe you remember of it.

Page 26 of this thread lists the sources, and you would be correct in that the one I listed from the Maxwell Institute described the treasure guardians, but didn't quote the dead Indian story of Joseph Smith's trial. I confused it with the BYU paper New Evidence and New Difficulties by Marvin S. Hill, BYU Studies Vol 12, Winter '72, p. 223-234

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12999&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=462

What the Maxwell Institute link did say, which would match Thompson's testimony:

http://maxwellinstitute.BYU.edu/publica ... m=1&id=600
Most treasures were guarded by ghosts or spirits—usually deceased humans.


http://www.lightplanet.com/response/182 ... _Hill.html
Joseph Smith and the 1826 Trial:
New Evidence and New Difficulties1
by Marvin S. Hill
BYU Studies Vol 12, Winter '72, p. 223-234
The Fraser's and Purple accounts of Josiah Stowell's testimony do not entirely agree. While both have Stowell testifying that he believed in Joseph's divining powers, Purple has Stowell saying Joseph could see treasures fifty feet underground, a statement which brought a direct challenge from Justice Neely. Stowell stuck to his story, however, and said he not only believed it but knew it. Both accounts give Jonathan Thompson as the last witness but with widely differing and contradictory versions of his testimony. Fraser's has Thompson relating how he, a man named Yeomans, and Joseph Smith went out at night and began digging, after Joseph told them the exact position of a treasure chest. They dug several feet and struck something with their shovel, after which Joseph looked into his glass and became frightened, seeing there an Indian who had buried the treasure and then killed his friend and buried him to guard it. Thompson said he believed that Joseph could divine such things with his stone and recounted how the chest, which was enchanted, kept settling away from them as they dug.

In the Purple version of Thompson, Joseph Smith told Stowell that a band of robbers had buried a treasure and placed a charm over it, which could only be removed by fasting and prayer. They dug for the treasure to a depth of five feet but decided they lacked sufficient faith to secure it. They offered the blood of a lamb as propitiation, but the treasure continued to recede from their reach.


And the story also matches this article from the Amboy journal with a reference to bleeding ghosts guarding treasure:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/jos ... hodist.htm
When Joseph Lewis, who was twenty-one at the time (about a year and a half younger than Smith), learned of this act, he felt that Joseph's manner of life rendered him unfit to be a member and told him either to "publicly ask to have his name stricken from the class book, or stand a disciplinary investigation." Mr. Lewis gave further details about the incident a month after the first article appeared in the Amboy paper, and he wrote:
I, with Joshua McKune, a local preacher at that time, I think in June, 1828, heard on Saturday, that Joe Smith had joined the church on Wednesday afternoon, (as it was customary in those days to have circuit preaching at my father's house on week-day). We thought it was a disgrace to the church to have a practicing necromancer, a dealer in enchantments and bleeding ghosts, in it. So on Sunday we went to father's, the place of meeting that day, and got there in season to see Smith and talked with him some time in father's shop before the meeting. Told him that his occupation, habits, and moral character were at variance with the discipline, that his name would be a disgrace to the church, that there should have been recantation, confession and at least promised reformation-. That he could that day publicly ask that his name be stricken from the class book, or stand an investigation. He chose the former, and did that very day make the request that his name be taken off the class book. (The Amboy Journal, June 11, 1879, p.1).


Do you discount the story Brant? Do you discount that dead human spirits suposedly guarded the treasure the money-diggers were attempting to find?

Uncle Dale or anyone else... do you have any other references by Joseph Smith to treasure guardians being dead humans?
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Joseph Antley wrote:I don't have time to respond in detail to thews right now (I'm on my way out there door), but let is suffice for now to say that it's very, very amusing that he would criticize me of picking-and-choosing my sources.

Thanks for the data Joseph. In the case of Luman Walter and the dead Indian testimony, I found in conversations with you about money-digging that (IMO) you seem to reject them in favor of other accounts. Why would Thompson make this (dead Indian guarding treasure) up?

Thanks
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Brant Gardner »

thews wrote:
Joseph Antley wrote:Why would Thompson make this (dead Indian guarding treasure) up?

That is a very perceptive question, and one to which you ought to know the answer before you accept too many reminiscent statements as completely accurate.

First, the idea of the treasure guardian was pretty well known in the community. It was pervasive enough that it wouldn't only have been Joseph who knew it. Secondly, could Thompson have added that detail after the fact? The information on eye-witnesses and reconstructed remembrances tell us that it is entirely possible. So, it isn't that Thompson would have made it up intentionally, but that his cultural constructs fed into and redefined his recollection--a rather well-documented process.

So the basic answer is that there is a very well-accepted explanation for why he might have "made up" that detail--even if it had never actually happened. The fact that it fit into other similar circumstances would be sufficient.

That leaves us with the question of whether or not it really represented what Joseph said, or whether it was something that Thompson added. Unfortunately, there is no objective way to know. Both explanations fit perfectly well with the historical context and with known science of autobiographical memory.

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

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Brant Gardner wrote:
thews wrote: Why would Thompson make this (dead Indian guarding treasure) up?

That is a very perceptive question, and one to which you ought to know the answer before you accept too many reminiscent statements as completely accurate.

You use “reminiscent” to cast doubt, but why? What is wrong with this reasoning? If treasure guardians were most commonly dead humans, it would make sense that Joseph Smith claimed a dead human was moving the treasure when it wasn’t found. If Indian burial mounds supposedly contained treasure, then the story fits perfectly.
Brant Gardner wrote:First, the idea of the treasure guardian was pretty well known in the community. It was pervasive enough that it wouldn't only have been Joseph who knew it. Secondly, could Thompson have added that detail after the fact? The information on eye-witnesses and reconstructed remembrances tell us that it is entirely possible. So, it isn't that Thompson would have made it up intentionally, but that his cultural constructs fed into and redefined his recollection--a rather well-documented process.

Why Brant, when it comes to Joseph Smith, are things always not what would seem to be when it’s unfavorable? Treasure guardians were the ones that supposedly moved the treasure, and there are many stories of treasure moving underground. Some data:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech4.htm
In the account of Thompson, he believed in Joseph Smith’s skill of seeing… why would he lie about what Joseph Smith said?
Jonathan Thompson says that prisoner was requested to look for chest of money; did look, and pretended to know where it was; and prisoner, Thompson, and Yeomans went in search of it; that Smith arrived at spot first; was at night; that Smith looked in hat while there, and when very dark, and told how the chest was situated. After digging several feet, struck upon something sounding like a board or plank. Prisoner would not look again, pretending that he was alarmed on account of the circumstances relating to the trunk being buried, [which], came all fresh to his mind. That the last time he looked he discovered distinctly the two Indians who buried the trunk, that a quarrel ensued between them, and that one of said Indians was killed by the other, and thrown into the hole beside the trunk, to guard it, as he supposed. Thompson says that he believes in the prisoner's professed skill; that the board which he struck his spade upon was probably the chest, but on account of an enchantment the trunk kept settling away from under them when digging; that notwithstanding they continued constantly removing the dirt, yet the trunk kept about the same distance from them. Says prisoner said that it appeared to him that salt might be found at Bainbridge, and that he is certain that prisoner can divine things by means of said stone. That as evidence of the fact prisoner looked into his hat to tell him about some money witness lost sixteen years ago, and that he described the man that witness supposed had taken it, and the disposition of the money:


Brant Gardner wrote:So the basic answer is that there is a very well-accepted explanation for why he might have "made up" that detail--even if it had never actually happened. The fact that it fit into other similar circumstances would be sufficient.

That leaves us with the question of whether or not it really represented what Joseph said, or whether it was something that Thompson added. Unfortunately, there is no objective way to know. Both explanations fit perfectly well with the historical context and with known science of autobiographical memory.

And again your only out here is to cast doubt on what is known, rather than just accept what Thompson said, which all makes sense regarding treasure guardians. Using your logic, nothing can ever be true as autobiographical memory may have tainted it. This data didn’t come from some campfire chat, but a trial. The fact that Thompson believed in the ability of Joseph Smith to see things with his seer stone makes him a favorable witness.

More data to support what Thompson said:
http://newsletters.cephasministry.com/l ... n7.99.html
Joshua Stafford of Manchester recalled that he "became acquainted with the family of Joseph Smith, Sic et Non. about the year 1819 or 20.
They then were laboring people, in low circumstances. A short time after this, they commenced digging for hidden treasures.. and told marvelous stories about ghosts, hob-goblins, caverns, and various other mysterious matters." Willard Chase, another friend of the family, similarly recalled, "I became acquainted with the Smith family.. in the year 1820. At that time they were engaged in the money digging business."" (Inventing Mormonism, Marquardt and Walters, p.64)

http://www.janishutchinson.com/joeoccult.html
While one may view this as shocking, one needs to understand the climate of his culture. Belief in magic was not unusual. Mormon Historian, B.H. Roberts, acknowledged that Smith’s family believed in “fortune telling . . . warlocks and witches,” and added that “to be credulous in such things was to be normal people.”
In one instance, according to William R. Hein, he gazed into his stone, and:

He saw Captain Kidd sailing on the Susquehanna River during a freshet, and that he buried two pots of gold and silver. He claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it, and he translated it through his peep-stone.
For example, William Stafford, a contemporary of Smith tells how Joseph said there was a buried chest of gold watches guarded by an evil spirit. To pacify the spirit, he ordered stakes set up in the form of a circle. He then sent a man to obtain a long knife, or sword, and to march around the spot with drawn weapon to guard against any satanic assaults. (Treasure spirits were usually considered evil and were thought to have the power to kill a person unless appeased by magic circles and blood sacrifices.)

In this activity, Joseph and his father worked in conjunction with each other. Often, while his father was performing this service for customers, Joseph would be in the house using his peep stone to keep track of what the evil spirit was doing. William Stafford again gives an account:

Joseph, Sr. first made a circle, twelve or fourteen feet in diameter. This circle, said he, contains the treasure. He then stuck a row of witch hazel sticks, around the said circles, for the purpose of keeping off the evil spirits. Within this circle he made another, of about eight or ten feet in diameter. He walked around three times on the periphery of this last circle, muttering to himself something which I could not understand. . . .[He then] asked leave of absence, and went to the house to inquire of young Joseph the cause of our disappointment. He soon returned and said, that Joseph had remained all this time in the house, looking in his stone and watching the motion of the evil spirit - that he saw the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink.

Also Brant, if you care to comment, what do you make of the bizarre story of Joseph’s brother Alvin being dug up 10 months after he died? Joseph and Alvin were the supposed gifted seers in the family, and while the story takes many turns, the most probable culprit for digging Alvin up would be Joseph Smith. The use of “black art” would be evidenced by the sacrifice of a black sheep, the wearing of black clothes and riding a black horse, and the need for Alvin’s blood. Any comments?
http://www.saintsalive.com/resourcelibr ... nial-magic
Alvin died in November of 1823 and in the 1824 audience Joseph had to report to Moroni alone again. Several sources cited by professor D. Michael Quinn quoted Smith as telling them that the message he received from the spirit personage was, in effect: "Without your dead brother, Alvin, you cannot have the golden plates."1 One can imagine Joseph's frame of mind as he turned toward home. His prospects were ebbing, but all was not yet lost. The unique context of the quest for the plates allowed for substituting a talisman of body parts wretched from the corpse of a dead man as a stand in for the man himself.

Wayne Sentinel:
TO THE PUBLIC;
Whereas reports have been industriously put in circulation that my son, Alvin, has been removed from the place of his interment and dissected; which reports every person possessed of human sensibility must know are peculiarly calculated to harrow up the mind of a parent and deeply wound the feelings of relations, I, with some of my neighbors this morning repaired to the grave, and removing the earth, found the body which had not been disturbed. This method is taken for the purpose of satisfying the minds of those who have put it in circulation, that it is earnestly requested that they would desist therefrom; and that it is believed by some that they have been stimulated more by desire to injure the reputation of certain persons than by a philanthropy for the peace and welfare of myself and friends.
(Signed) Joseph Smith [Sr}
Palmyra, September25, 1824

Evidently, the Smith family had made some arrangement about the requirement for Alvin's presence. It most likely did not involve a family decision to use Alvin's remains because the fact of the opened grave seemed to catch them so badly off guard. However, when we re-read Alvin's dying injunction to Joseph Jr. it appears that Alvin virtually sanctioned Joseph to bring his remains to the Hill if the need arose: "DO EVERYTHING THAT LIES IN YOU (sic) POWER to obtain the record. BE FAITHFUL in receiving instruction, and in keeping EVERY commandment that is given to you." (Emphasis added). When the requirement of Alvin's presence proved to be a stumbling block, Joseph had only to recall Alvin's words of solemn urgency for all the permission he would need.


And more...
http://www.saintsalive.com/resourcelibr ... nial-magic
We can now flesh out this interpretation of the events of September 22, 1824. Joseph Jr., his family, and the inner circle of the money digging company knew long beforehand that Alvin's death changed the circumstances of the 1824 audience. They hoped that the spirit being would accept the death as a reasonable excuse for Alvin's absence. The family talked over the problem and on the night of September 21 they dressed Joseph Jr. in Alvin's clothing with Alvin's personal articles in the pockets.

Joseph Jr. set out for the Hill Cumorah on foot, shortly after ten PM under a full moon. He canted his ceremonial dagger and robes with him. Most of the family stayed up all night awaiting the results. Joseph performed the ceremony of conjuration correctly and at midnight Moroni appeared. When Joseph was informed that without Alvin he could not have the plates he concluded this was a problem he could solve. He quietly returned home, surreptitiously picked up a shovel and hurried to the gravesite.

With roiling emotions, he dug up the corpse, murmuring prayers and incantations the whole time. He took what he needed and hastily recovered the corpse. He returned to the Hill Cumorah and implored Moroni for another audience. Moroni either did not appear at all or else told Smith that his effort was useless, to try again the following year.33 He returned home after daybreak, physically and emotionally exhausted. He told his family the entire train of events, of failure at every turn, and fell into bed.

Smith Sr. went out in the sunlight to pack down the earth around Alvin's grave as needy as possible. Other members of the money digging team, intensely curious, came to the Smith home and were told that Joseph failed to obtain the plates. They learned then, or very shortly afterward on their own accord, that Alvin's grave had been violated. The knew who had done it and why. This development was so sensational and so impossible to keep secret that they started bruiting the whole story around the countryside. Within a day or two the appalling rumors begin to reach the Smith family. Smith Sr. was confronted with an impossible situation. Joseph Jr. had acted rashly but he was only doing his best in a project that involved the entire family.

Soon the senior Smith launched his investigative charade and issued his forlorn newspaper statement which pasted a fig leaf of propriety over the whole affair. The episode might seem peculiar to chose who read about it 164 years later but to Smith Sr. it seemed like the reasonable dining to do at the time. Likewise with his son. His actions might seem horrific to an outside observer but they seemed perfectly reasonable to Joseph Smith Jr.



Edit to add the thread Mike Reed got closed on MADB. This was an interesting thread, but as usual Mike Reed offers no opinion other than :highfives: and acts like a whiney little NARC. The stanard response of failing to answer questions and hiding behind other opinions fails to answer the question asked:

Question: Was the dead Indian Joseph Smith claimed was guarding the treasure (testimoney of Thompson who was a favorable witness) an evil spirit?

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/topic/ ... e__st__120
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by grindael »

Bumping this... (you're welcome!)

What is interesting is that the Mormons themselves (in the 1840's when Smith was still alive) were calling what some were doing with peepstones (telling fortunes, etc, like the Smith's did in Palmyra) "black magic", and claiming that anyone who had the "priesthood" would be unable to practice it. (See Woodruff's Journal for instance).

So why call it "folk magic" today when the Mormons themselves called it "black magic"? It is all relative to who is doing the calling.
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Kishkumen »

The OP of this thread is one of the stupidest things I have read on this board.
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Gadianton »

Kishkumen wrote:The OP of this thread is one of the stupidest things I have read on this board.


lol, you're killing me, Rev. Great advertising though, thanks to you I went back to read it, and then perused the commentary. What a crew commenting, eh?

Harmony (God bless you sister, wherever you may be) quoted Darth J:

I mean, you need a little perspective here. Your source of being all high and mighty about "occult" practices versus "Christianity" is a book full of talking donkeys, the Hebrews winning a battle because a guy held his arms up, people being healed by looking at a snake on a stick, God turning people into salt, God casting out the human race because a snake tricked a woman into eating a piece of fruit, sorcerers who used an astrological sign to find baby Jesus, and casting lots to see who fate decided should be the new apostle.


Maybe my laughter is an overreaction though given I just paused episode 8 of "The Witcher" to parse this thread.
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"...supporters of Billy Meier still point to the very clear photos of Pleiadian beam ships flying over his farm. They argue that for the photos to be fakes, we have to believe that a one-armed man who had no knowledge of Photoshop or other digital photography programs could have made such realistic photos and films..." -- D. R. Prothero

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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by moksha »

Major Forms of Magic Practiced by 33rd Degree Mormons

• Alteration - water and bread into tokens of remembrance
• Conjuration - summoning a memory of Bruce R. McConkie
• Destruction - a dusting of boots
• Enchanting - consecrating olive oil
• Illusion - Brigham taking on the countenance of Joseph
• Restoration - priesthood blessings
• Alchemy - blending fry sauce
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace

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grindael
Dragon
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Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 2:15 am

Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by grindael »

For all the silliness in this thread, I find a lot of it rather fascinating and informative.
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

candygal
God
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm

Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by candygal »

Can someone clue me in on why the blatant anger from Mike Reed to Thews?

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Kishkumen
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Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:00 pm

Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by Kishkumen »

candygal wrote:Can someone clue me in on why the blatant anger from Mike Reed to Thews?


Thews could be a real annoyance. Mike Reed was not very patient with Christian anti-Mormonism. I tend not to be too.
“God came to me in a dream last night and showed me the future. He took me to heaven and I saw Donald Trump seated at the right hand of our Lord.” ~ Pat Robertson
“He says he has eyes to see things that are not . . . and that the angel of the Lord . . . has put him in possession of great wealth, gold, silver, precious stones.” ~ Jesse Smith

candygal
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 8:38 pm

Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by candygal »

Kishkumen wrote:
candygal wrote:Can someone clue me in on why the blatant anger from Mike Reed to Thews?


Thews could be a real annoyance. Mike Reed was not very patient with Christian anti-Mormonism. I tend not to be too.
Thank you.!

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grindael
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Re: “Folk” magic redefined by Brant Gardner and Mike Reed

Post by grindael »

The problem with religious arguments is that when they point the finger at other religions, four are pointing back at themselves. (The Bible, Father, Son & Holy Ghost).
Riding on a speeding train; trapped inside a revolving door;
Lost in the riddle of a quatrain; Stuck in an elevator between floors.
One focal point in a random world can change your direction:
One step where events converge may alter your perception.

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