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Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:12 pm
by Droopy
Droopy or Trevor?

As I accept all the teachings, commandments and principles of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the historicity and divinity of the Book of Mormon, the authenticity of the prophetic mission and calling of Joseph Smith, and uphold as prophets, seers and revelators, the Brethren, it would seem logically contradictory to term me an apostate.

This term is normally reserved for those who have been in the Church and rejected the propositions I have mentioned above (as well as much else).

This would also include, at some level of commitment, those who uphold and support political ideologies and beliefs in contradiction to and in rebellion against the teachings of the gospel.

Oh, and as to Bill Mahr, I just confused Darth with Trevor for a moment. That happens sometimes. I was just retreading my Birkenstocks and lost track of the threads.

My apologies.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:15 pm
by Trevor
I vote both of you. Clearly you are guilty of having a Gospel hobby, as it were. If this isn't a sign of apostasy, it is at the very least a flirtation with apostasy, albeit unwitting.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:19 pm
by Jersey Girl
Droopy wrote:Droopy or Darth?

As I accept all the teachings, commandments and principles of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the historicity and divinity of the Book of Mormon, the authenticity of the prophetic mission and calling of Joseph Smith, and uphold as prophets, seers and revelators, the Brethren, it would seem logically contradictory to term me an apostate.

This term is normally reserved for those who have been in the Church and rejected the propositions I have mentioned above (as well as much else).

This would also include, at some level of commitment, those who uphold and support political ideologies and beliefs in contradiction to and in rebellion against the teachings of the gospel.

Oh, and as to Bill Mahr, I just confused Darth with Trevor for a moment. That happens sometimes. I was just retreading my Birkenstocks and lost track of the threads.

My apologies.


Loran,

Who referred to you as apostate? I didn't see that. Got a quote?

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:21 pm
by Droopy
A poor deluded fool wrote: "the environmental movement is a major branch, or division of the Great and Abominable Church of the Devil as foreseen by ancient prophets, and hence, not something the Church can ever be a part of."

Must be a sign since The Church is touting 'going green' and buying into 'the environmental movement'. Your baloney will go the way of Ezra Taft Benson, Joseph Fielding Smith and the crap they put out for so long.


The Church is trying to save energy, cut operating costs, and improve energy efficiency in its buildings. The Church has said or claimed nothing regarding this indicative of the slightest sympathy for or acceptance of the ideology, beliefs and assumptions of the environmental movement.

Environmentalism is little more than the new Communism, as Vaclav Klaus, and many others have noted.

It can also be understood, as I (and others) have long maintained, as a kind of militant gnostic neo-Pantheism strongly attached to other core aspects of the post sixties Left.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:23 pm
by Tarski
Droopy wrote:Droopy or Darth?

As I accept all the teachings, commandments and principles of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the historicity and divinity of the Book of Mormon, the authenticity of the prophetic mission and calling of Joseph Smith, and uphold as prophets, seers and revelators, the Brethren,


all as interpreted and filtered through the lens of a political ideology foreign to the manifest spirit of the New Testament. In short, your version is what you support.

Now wait for it, wait for it........


This would also include, at some level of commitment, those who uphold and support political ideologies and beliefs in contradiction to and in rebellion against the teachings of the gospel.

Ah now see... LOL
There is just no resisting the urge.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:26 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:It can also be understood, as I (and others) have long maintained, as a kind of militant gnostic neo-Pantheism strongly attached to other core aspects of the post sixties Left.


What a load of horse manure. Yeah, every environmentalist out there is smoking pot, reading Marx, and worshiping Gaia. You are so full of it.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:26 pm
by Droopy
Jersey Girl wrote:
Droopy wrote:Droopy or
Who referred to you as apostate? I didn't see that. Got a quote?


Droopy-think: If you are an apostate, you are a liberal whether you know it or not.


As I said, I got Darth and Trevor mixed up for a few moments.

I'm all better now.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:27 pm
by Darth J
Droopy wrote:Droopy or Darth?

As I accept all the teachings, commandments and principles of the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the historicity and divinity of the Book of Mormon, the authenticity of the prophetic mission and calling of Joseph Smith, and uphold as prophets, seers and revelators, the Brethren, it would seem logically contradictory to term me an apostate.

This term is normally reserved for those who have been in the Church and rejected the propositions I have mentioned above (as well as much else).

This would also include, at some level of commitment, those who uphold and support political ideologies and beliefs in contradiction to and in rebellion against the teachings of the gospel.

Oh, and as to Bill Mahr, I just confused Darth with Trevor for a moment. That happens sometimes. I was just retreading my Birkenstocks and lost track of the threads.

My apologies.


Church Handbook of Instructions, Book 1, 1998
Section 10 (church discipline)

Apostasy
As used here, apostasy refers to members who:
1. Repeatedly act in clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church or its
leaders.
Page 95
2. Persist in teaching as Church doctrine information that is not Church doctrine after
they have been corrected by their bishops or higher authority
3. Continue to follow the teachings of apostate sects (such as those that advocate plural
marriage) after being corrected by their bishop or higher authority.
In such cases, excommunication may be necessary if repentance is not evident after
counseling and encouragement.
Priesthood leaders must take disciplinary action against apostates to protect Church members.
The Savior taught the Nephites that they should continue to minister to a transgressor, but "if he
repent not he shall not be numbered among my people, that he may not destroy my people" (3
Nephi 18:31; see also Mosiah 26:36).


The official policy of the LDS Church is:
The Church does not:

* Endorse, promote or oppose political parties, candidates or platforms.
* Allow its church buildings, membership lists or other resources to be used for partisan political purposes.
* Attempt to direct its members as to which candidate or party they should give their votes to. This policy applies whether or not a candidate for office is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
* Attempt to direct or dictate to a government leader.

The Church does:

* Encourage its members to play a role as responsible citizens in their communities, including becoming informed about issues and voting in elections.
* Expect its members to engage in the political process in an informed and civil manner, respecting the fact that members of the Church come from a variety of backgrounds and experiences and may have differences of opinion in partisan political matters.
* Request candidates for office not to imply that their candidacy or platforms are endorsed by the Church.
* Reserve the right as an institution to address, in a nonpartisan way, issues that it believes have significant community or moral consequences or that directly affect the interests of the Church.

http://www.LDS.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/publ ... neutrality


You have incessantly opposed Church policy in public by claiming that only people who agree with your political views---which you will never, ever, ever shut the ____ up about---are fit and worthy to be real Mormons.

I have pointed this out to you many, many times because you will not ____ shut up about politics on Mormon discussion boards. Your response invariably is to assume that I agree with the liberal/leftist groups or ideologies you won't shut up about and demand that I justify how someone can be a good Mormon and agree with these philosophies.

Since I don't belong to any of those philosophies, I don't have to justify it. People who do subscribe to any of those philosophies are the ones who must justify it, but to God, not to you. My first mission companion was from Bergamo, Italy, and was an active member of the communist party. He still is, and is very active in church there. How does he justify it? It's none of my business, nor of yours.

The Church has made it clear that it doesn't take sides in politics. You are apostate by contradicting church policy and demanding that some platforms cannot be part of a church member's political beliefs. The Church says it does not oppose any political beliefs and that its members come from many political points of view.

I don't ____ care about politics, Droopy. I only care when the government is getting involved in my life. Then my politics is getting them out of my life.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:28 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:As I said, I got Darth and Trevor mixed up for a few moments.

I'm all better now.


Yeah, shake it off, Droop. Clear your head. Think before you post.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:30 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:The Church is trying to save energy, cut operating costs, and improve energy efficiency in its buildings. The Church has said or claimed nothing regarding this indicative of the slightest sympathy for or acceptance of the ideology, beliefs and assumptions of the environmental movement.


So what do you think about Nibley being an environmentalist? Was this also due to his hippy philosophy? LOL. What a joke.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:30 pm
by Droopy
Trevor wrote:
Droopy wrote:It can also be understood, as I (and others) have long maintained, as a kind of militant gnostic neo-Pantheism strongly attached to other core aspects of the post sixties Left.


What a load of horse manure. Yeah, every environmentalist out there is smoking pot, reading Marx, and worshiping Gaia. You are so full of it.



No, you are simply another pristine example of the kind of intellectual poseur this place attracts and makes comfortable: poorly read, half educated, and intellectually pubescent.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:32 pm
by Darth J
Droopy wrote:No, you are simply another pristine example of the kind of intellectual poseur this place attracts and makes comfortable: poorly read, half educated, and intellectually pubescent.


Go take the Constitution quiz and show us how richly read, fully educated, and intellectually adult you are.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:32 pm
by Droopy
Trevor wrote:I vote both of you. Clearly you are guilty of having a Gospel hobby, as it were. If this isn't a sign of apostasy, it is at the very least a flirtation with apostasy, albeit unwitting.



You really should drop this particular evasion of the issue as it has run its course and its been exposed already for what it is...a debate avoidance tactic.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:32 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:No, you are simply another pristine example of the kind of intellectual poseur this place attracts and makes comfortable: poorly read, half educated, and intellectually pubescent.


Not willing to back up your road apples, Droop? Nothing to say but empty insults? Well, I'm not hurt, buddy. Vent your puerile anger all you like. I still think you're basically cool. You're just angry for some reason. Let it go.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:35 pm
by Jersey Girl
Droopy-think: If you are an apostate, you are a liberal whether you know it or not.


He wasn't referring to you as an apostate. He was posting a representation of "Droopy-think", not "Droopy, think...."

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:36 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:You really should drop this particular evasion of the issue as it has run its course and its been exposed already for what it is...a debate avoidance tactic.


Projecting, Droopy? When have you ever said anything of real substance here? I mean really? I have discussed the historical Jesus in some detail with Kevin, among other things. People know I have at least a few goods because I have carried on sustained arguments backed by evidence. What have you done, big guy?

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:36 pm
by Droopy
So what do you think about Nibley being an environmentalist? Was this also due to his hippy philosophy? LOL. What a joke.


As I've said a number of time over a several year period, here and at the MADboard, I think Nibley was a gross economic illiterate, I think he was riddled with class envy, and was quite ignorant of political philosophy, history and analysis.

This changes nothing, however, regarding his contributions to the Church and his chosen fields within those chosen fields.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:38 pm
by Lucretia MacEvil
The mere existence of this thread supports my opinion that the church is legalistic, rigid and controlling (although a bit fuzzy on its doctrine). Would either of you like to learn about a church that doesn't fling around accusations of apostacy? No? I didn't think so. :)

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:40 pm
by Tarski
Droopy wrote:

It can also be understood, as I (and others) have long maintained, as a kind of militant gnostic neo-Pantheism strongly attached to other core aspects of the post sixties Left.

Wow! LOL

What happened to you in the 60's? Did a beautiful beflowered hippy girl spurn your advances in high school and this fevered conservatism is the psychologically protective reaction?
Perhaps, you give new meaning to the notion of being a casualty of the 60's.

(I kid)

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:42 pm
by Trevor
Droopy wrote:As I've said a number of time over a several year period, here and at the MADboard, I think Nibley was a gross economic illiterate, I think he was riddled with class envy, and was quite ignorant of political philosophy, history and analysis.


You're such a doofus, Droop. The man was from a wealthy family. And, I bet the man knew far more about the ways of the world than you'll ever hope to. You just don't like his conclusions. He was a Lefty because he believed this was more consistent with the Gospel. Whereas you, relying on authorities who tell you which political position is the "only true" one to have, simply model your opinions accordingly.

I see no great depth here. I'd like to. I want to be dazzled by your depth. But frankly your game is up. Someone with real knowledge of Con law has just called your bluff. You flunked.

Re: Who is the Apostate Here?

Posted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:45 pm
by Darth J
Lucretia MacEvil wrote:The mere existence of this thread supports my opinion that the church is legalistic, rigid and controlling (although a bit fuzzy on its doctrine). Would either of you like to learn about a church that doesn't fling around accusations of apostacy? No? I didn't think so. :)


Yeah, you can't pin down "official church doctrine," but at the same time the Church and TBM's both have an almost 17th century Salem fetish about "apostates," and demand rigid conformity (see the David Bednar talk in my post in the most despised church leader thread) to Mormon cultural norms.

Lucretia, this is exactly why I pour my heart out to God that He will make Droopy, BCSpace, and Will Schryver the First Presidency of Mormons on the internet. I invite you to join me in my prayers---whatever "God" or "prayer" may mean to you.