Why are ordinances required?

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Gazelam
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Re: Why are ordinances required?

Post by Gazelam »

Seven wrote:(Going with the New Testament and LDS doctrine that baptism is required of all, even of Jesus)

I understand the symbolism and benefits of performing ordinances. Making covenants with God helps to keep us on the right path and teaches us God's ways. What I would like your opinions of, is WHY ordinances like baptism, and temple ordinances are REQUIRED for every person that has ever lived. This has never made sense to me. I think the LDS teaching and doctrine of baptism for the dead is beautiful and in line with a loving Heavenly Father who offers salvation for all his children. I think it's a wonderful way for us to connect with our ancestors and renew our own covenants.
But .....WHY is the physical act of having a proxy baptism/sealing etc. so necessary to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom?
I appreciate your thoughts on this. : )


People are not born into this world into the family of God, they are born under the name of Adam, Adam having been given dominion over all things in this world, that is why when Adam fell, all of creation fell with him. Adam had placed a name on all things in the world, includeing Eve, and therefore all things fell with him. As decendants of Adam, we enter this fallen world in the fallen condition, and the effects of death are upon us, both temporally and eventually spiritually as we reach the age of accountability.

To receive the blessings of Heaven, man must leave the family of Adam and become adopted into the family of God. To do so man must subscribe to the articles of adoption, or rather, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

"Faith, repentance, baptism and the laying on of hands," wrote Elder Orson Pratt, "are the four rules of adoption. Remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, are the two blessings of adoption which are inseperably connected with obedience to the rules. Both the rules and the blessings of adoption are the same in all ages and dispensations of the gospel. No man or woman ever entered into the church or kingdom of God on this earth, and became a legal citizen thereof, without complying strictly with these rules. Indeed, it is the only door or entrance into the kingdom." ("The Kingdom of God," in Orson Pratt's Works p.48.)

Ordinances cannot be performed by spirits, and must therefore be done either in the body or by proxy. This work will be the great work of the Millinium as the work is done for those countless souls who did not have the oportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, taught in its fulness, in this life. All will be given the opportunity to overcome the world and its enticing way of sin. If the name of Christ is not taken then they will not be permitted to enter the Holy City and enjoy the benefits of association and participation with the Holy Family.

"Family members bear the family name," Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained.

"By it they are known and called and identified; it sets them apart from all those of a different lineage and ancestry. Adopted children take upon themselves the name of their newfound parents and become in all respects as though they had been born in the family. And so it is that the children of Christ, those who are born again, those who are spiritually begoten by their new Father, take upon themselves the name of Christ. By it they are known; in it they are called; it identifies and sets them apart from all others. They are now family members, Christians in the real and true sence of the word.

Do they themselves become Christs? Not in the sense that they are called upon to atone for the sins of others and make immortality and eternal life available for themselves or their fellowmen on this or any world. But they do carry his name and are obligated to bear it in decency and dignity." (The Promised Messiah p. 363)

The same mode of adoption that we subscibe to in this life is the same mode that must be subscribed to in the world of the spirits. The Articles of Adoption do not change.
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

harmony
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Re: Why are ordinances required?

Post by harmony »

People are not born into this world into the family of God, they are born under the name of Adam, Adam having been given dominion over all things in this world, that is why when Adam fell, all of creation fell with him. Adam had placed a name on all things in the world, includeing Eve, and therefore all things fell with him. As decendants of Adam, we enter this fallen world in the fallen condition, and the effects of death are upon us, both temporally and eventually spiritually as we reach the age of accountability.


Where do you come with this stuff from, Gazelam? We aren't born into this world in a fallen condition. We're born into this world completely innocent. Just because we are mortal doesn't mean we're fallen. You sound more like a Calvinist than a Mormon.

To receive the blessings of Heaven, man must leave the family of Adam and become adopted into the family of God. To do so man must subscribe to the articles of adoption, or rather, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.


We're in the family of God, Gazelam. We're his children, remember? Brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ himself. Good grief, do you make up doctrine as you go along?

"Faith, repentance, baptism and the laying on of hands," wrote Elder Orson Pratt, "are the four rules of adoption. Remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, are the two blessings of adoption which are inseperably connected with obedience to the rules. Both the rules and the blessings of adoption are the same in all ages and dispensations of the gospel. No man or woman ever entered into the church or kingdom of God on this earth, and became a legal citizen thereof, without complying strictly with these rules. Indeed, it is the only door or entrance into the kingdom." ("The Kingdom of God," in Orson Pratt's Works p.48.)


When was this paragraphy canonized? I can't seem to find it in my scriptures. And if it's not in the canon, it's not doctrine.

Ordinances cannot be performed by spirits, and must therefore be done either in the body or by proxy. This work will be the great work of the Millinium as the work is done for those countless souls who did not have the oportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ, taught in its fulness, in this life. All will be given the opportunity to overcome the world and its enticing way of sin. If the name of Christ is not taken then they will not be permitted to enter the Holy City and enjoy the benefits of association and participation with the Holy Family.


And you're going to quote the scriptures from which this is taken, right?

The same mode of adoption that we subscibe to in this life is the same mode that must be subscribed to in the world of the spirits. The Articles of Adoption do not change.


Documentation, please.

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Gazelam
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Post by Gazelam »

First I get criticised for using too much scripture, and now I'm criticised for not.....sigh.

Harmony:
Where do you come with this stuff from, Gazelam? We aren't born into this world in a fallen condition. We're born into this world completely innocent. Just because we are mortal doesn't mean we're fallen. You sound more like a Calvinist than a Mormon.


2 Nephi 2:20-29. We are not held responsible for his transgression, but we are subject to the effects of the Fall. We are innocent from birth till the age of accountability. But we are under the effects of the Fall in that we are born Mortal, and we are subject to temptation.

We're in the family of God, Gazelam. We're his children, remember? Brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ himself. Good grief, do you make up doctrine as you go along?


Gen. 2:19-25 Adam was given dominion over all things, they were his to care for and protect. Since his name was upon all things, all things fell with him.

As all things fell under Adams name, all things are redeemed by taking upon themselves the name of Christ.
Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes the Father is our Father, but when we are born into this world our situation changes. We change names. We agreed to this when we agreed to the Plan of Salvation. Salvation comes in taking upon ourselves the name of Christ in the waters of Baptism.

When was this paragraphy canonized? I can't seem to find it in my scriptures. And if it's not in the canon, it's not doctrine.


THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF Jesus Christ OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These ordinances are still required by those in the spirit world. The Laws of adoption do not change.

And you're going to quote the scriptures from which this is taken, right?


D&C 138:33-35
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

vs. 48
48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

Documentation, please.


See Above. I recommend your reading all of section 138.

Gazelam
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

harmony
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Post by harmony »

Gazelam wrote:First I get criticised for using too much scripture, and now I'm criticised for not.....sigh.

Harmony:
Where do you come with this stuff from, Gazelam? We aren't born into this world in a fallen condition. We're born into this world completely innocent. Just because we are mortal doesn't mean we're fallen. You sound more like a Calvinist than a Mormon.


2 Nephi 2:20-29. We are not held responsible for his transgression, but we are subject to the effects of the Fall. We are innocent from birth till the age of accountability. But we are under the effects of the Fall in that we are born Mortal, and we are subject to temptation.


Well, I'm glad you agree we're born innocent. That's something, at least. That's a whole lot different from being born into the world in a fallen (sinful) condition. Unless you're saying being in a fallen condition isn't sinful?

We're in the family of God, Gazelam. We're his children, remember? Brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ himself. Good grief, do you make up doctrine as you go along?


Gen. 2:19-25 Adam was given dominion over all things, they were his to care for and protect. Since his name was upon all things, all things fell with him.

As all things fell under Adams name, all things are redeemed by taking upon themselves the name of Christ.
Romans 8:14-17
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes the Father is our Father, but when we are born into this world our situation changes. We change names. We agreed to this when we agreed to the Plan of Salvation. Salvation comes in taking upon ourselves the name of Christ in the waters of Baptism.


We're Adam's brothers and sisters too, Gazelam. No better, no worse, all God's children. And our situation doesn't change when we're born so much as it expands. And where do you get this stuff about the names? I've never seen anyone emphasize that as much as you do. You do realize that the story of the Garden of Eden is one of those allegory things, right? You don't literally believe this, do you?

When was this paragraphy canonized? I can't seem to find it in my scriptures. And if it's not in the canon, it's not doctrine.


THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF Jesus Christ OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Okay, now that's in the canon. Why didn't you use that before, instead of Orson's?

These ordinances are still required by those in the spirit world.


Documentation again, please.

The Laws of adoption do not change.


You have yet to establish the foundation for the Law of Adoption, so you can't make assertions about it until you've done that.

And you're going to quote the scriptures from which this is taken, right?


D&C 138:33-35
33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,
34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

vs. 48
48 Foreshadowing the great work to be done in the temples of the Lord in the dispensation of the fulness of times, for the redemption of the dead, and the sealing of the children to their parents, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse and utterly wasted at his coming.

Documentation, please.


See Above. I recommend your reading all of section 138.

Gazelam


Care to find something other than something as late as Sec 138? Like maybe something from Joseph in his early days, before he stepped off the monogamy wagon and lost his mantle? Because I'm not real fond of Joseph F Smith either... the man physically abused his wife, so that kinda puts him beyond the pale, in my estimation. Maybe something in the Book of Mormon? Or even the Bible?

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Gazelam
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Harmony

Post by Gazelam »

We're Adam's brothers and sisters too, Gazelam. No better, no worse, all God's children. And our situation doesn't change when we're born so much as it expands. And where do you get this stuff about the names? I've never seen anyone emphasize that as much as you do. You do realize that the story of the Garden of Eden is one of those allegory things, right? You don't literally believe this, do you?


D&C 18:24
24 Wherefore, all men must take upon them the name which is given of the Father, for in that name shall they be called at the last day;
25 Wherefore, if they know not the bname by which they are called, they cannot have place in the kingdom of my Father.

Harmony, if you do not believe in the story of Adam and Eve, you do not believe in Jesus Christ. It is that simple. The two are inseperably connected. As sure as Christ took upon himself the sins of the world, Adam and Eve fell and brought about this probationary state that we pass through in this plan of salvation.

President Ezra Taft Benson said:
"The Book of Mormon Saints knew that the plan of redemption must start with the account of the fall of Adam. In the words of Moroni, "by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came Jesus Christ. . . and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man." (Mormon 9:12)
"Just as a man does not really desire food until he is hungry, so he does not desire the salvation of Christ until he knows why he needs Christ. No one adequately and properly knows why he needs Christ until he understands and accepts the doctrine of the Fall and its effects upon all mankind. And no other book in the world explains this vital doctrine nearly as well as the Book of Mormon."

If the Book of Mormon is true, as you know it is, then you must accept the Fall as a doctrinal truth, and move on.

Documentation again, please.


How many plans of Salvation are there Harmony? Are those who have not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ in this life to be saved in some other way?
1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

What gospel did they learn? The gospel of Jesus Christ.
The gospel of Jesus Christ is to take upon yourself his name and enter into a covenant with him to abide by his precepts. it is to be adopted by him and become part of his family. (Romans 8:14-17)

You have yet to establish the foundation for the Law of Adoption, so you can't make assertions about it until you've done that.


Mosiah 5:7-8
7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives.

Also, Gal. 4:5-7
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

Eph. 1:5
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

And why would we need to be Adopted?

Care to find something other than something as late as Sec 138? Like maybe something from Joseph in his early days, before he stepped off the monogamy wagon and lost his mantle? Because I'm not real fond of Joseph F Smith either... the man physically abused his wife, so that kinda puts him beyond the pale, in my estimation. Maybe something in the Book of Mormon? Or even the Bible?


There are the old Bible standbys on the subject. 1 Cor. 15:29. This is best read in context. vs. 12-44. They were being baptised by proxy because they would be resurrected and judged, and the judgement would be based on the degree of sanctification their souls would receive by their obedience to Christs principles and ordinances.

See also 1 Peter 3:19-20, and also 4:6

"Ordinances instituted in the heavens before the foundation of the world, in the priesthood, for the salvation of men, are not to be altered or changed. All must be saved on the same principles. - Joseph Smith jr.., DHC 5:423, June 11, 1843

"the question is frequently asked, "Can we not be saved without going through with all those ordinances, etc?" I would answer No, not the fulness of salvation. Jesus said, "There are many mansions in my Father's house, and I will go and prepare a place for you." House here named should have been translated kingdom; and any person who is exalted to the highest mansion has to abide a celestial law, and the whole of the law too. - Joseph Smith jr.., DHC 6:184, January 21, 1844

Every man who wishes to save his father, mother, brothers, sisters and friends, must go through all the ordinances for each one of them seperately, the same as for himself, from baptism to ordination, washings and anointings, and receive all the keys and powers of the priesthood, the same as for himself. - Joseph Smith jr.., DHC 6:319, April 8, 1844
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. - Plato

Roger Morrison
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Re: Why are ordinances required?

Post by Roger Morrison »

Seven wrote:(Going with the New Testament and LDS doctrine that baptism is required of all, even of Jesus)

I understand the symbolism and benefits of performing ordinances. Making covenants with God helps to keep us on the right path and teaches us God's ways. What I would like your opinions of, is WHY ordinances like baptism, and temple ordinances are REQUIRED for every person that has ever lived. This has never made sense to me. I think the LDS teaching and doctrine of baptism for the dead is beautiful and in line with a loving Heavenly Father who offers salvation for all his children. I think it's a wonderful way for us to connect with our ancestors and renew our own covenants.
But .....WHY is the physical act of having a proxy baptism/sealing etc. so necessary to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom?
I appreciate your thoughts on this. : )


Hi 7, It sounds as if you're looking for confirmation of what you already believe: Against your better judgement.!? You seem to be aware of the rote answers of LDS justification for their unique beliefs.

I respectfully suggest believe what you want, and feel comfortable with. Other than the feeling of comfort, or discomfort, your after-life does not depend in any practical way upon belief or disbelief of LDS teachings re the subject of heaven, or exaltation.

Thinking "...baptism for the dead is beautiful and in line with a loving Heavenly Father..." might be a warming sentiment. However, as in most Romance Novels the life-like 'facts' too seldom bear upon other than literary genius. Enjoyed for their entertainment and escapist values. You've experienced that at no harm... To this point...

Now YOU are asking THE serious questions! To which no one, in my seriously considered opinion, (IMSCO) can GIVE YOU the definitive answers. They are yours to find. However, all of the above 'posts' provide lots to consider seriously.

Do that with a clear head & an open mind. Try to detach yourself from traditional religious concepts re sin, salvation, judgement and after-life in a place of eternal glory. That is illusory, IMSCO, an opinion arrived at after much deliberation... You seem to be thinking in a pragmatic practical Jesus like sense.

Except in Christian-Mormon Substantiation of traditional Judeo-Christology, there is no basis, or need, to believe Temple Oathes, Covenants and Rituals efficatious in other than marks of LDS group identity.

In a very simple analogy: When one consumes 'food', that manifests itself in the person's state of health--generally speaking. Too much, too fat. Not enough too skinny. Right amount of right stuff, good-health great-condition. Temple attendance does not manifest any difference than does non-Temple-attendance. Any 'benefit' one might perceieve is simply personal gratification derived from submission to discipline and authority. Not all bad, if one needs it.

However, the inescapable negative effect comes when Temple exclusivity hits home. In actual fact that "hit" causes unconscionable heart ache and stress in too many homes, and families that are termed part-member families. IMSCO, this reality alone is enough to bring the whole question of Mormonism's claim of representing a "God" of love to an ignominious end: "They do not!"

Ask your local Missionaries to give you the leson re: *"God's" conditional love*. "Two Great Commandments" is what Jesusism is ALL about. Warm regards, Roger

grampa75
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Re: Why are ordinances required?

Post by grampa75 »

Seven wrote:(Going with the New Testament and LDS doctrine that baptism is required of all, even of Jesus)

I understand the symbolism and benefits of performing ordinances. Making covenants with God helps to keep us on the right path and teaches us God's ways. What I would like your opinions of, is WHY ordinances like baptism, and temple ordinances are REQUIRED for every person that has ever lived. This has never made sense to me. I think the LDS teaching and doctrine of baptism for the dead is beautiful and in line with a loving Heavenly Father who offers salvation for all his children. I think it's a wonderful way for us to connect with our ancestors and renew our own covenants.
But .....WHY is the physical act of having a proxy baptism/sealing etc. so necessary to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom?
I appreciate your thoughts on this. : )

I personally know that if I had not been sealed in the temple of our Lord, I could not have gained the knowledge of God and his plan, and many other truths that God has not revealed to the world. I can't say what those truths are, naturally, but I will say that because of my temple sealing I now know where God Himself came from, where and when man came on the scene, I know that there was a first earth and what the cataclysm is that is going to be the cause of the next great tribulation period. I also know that we have to survive the tribulation and that there is going to be a third coming of our Lord.

I suppose it is as Isaiah 5 says, "my people have gone astray because they have no knowledge. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself and gaped open her mouth without measure.

Is is knowledge that saves us in the end. Mormons can not be led astray because of the fact that we have to have a second witness to anything that is taught us or that we learn by our own efforts, and that witness is the Holy Spirit of God. If the Prophet himself tell us anything it doesn't mean we are to take it at face value, it means that we need to know that truth the prophet has revealed in much the same way and Nephi new what his father, another prophet taught, he asked God to enlighten him.

I am thankful for the understanding that the Lord has given me. Even though I don't know all things, I do know to ask God before I believe any teaching from any person even myself.

grampa75
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harmony
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Re: Why are ordinances required?

Post by harmony »

grampa75 wrote:
Seven wrote:(Going with the New Testament and LDS doctrine that baptism is required of all, even of Jesus)

I understand the symbolism and benefits of performing ordinances. Making covenants with God helps to keep us on the right path and teaches us God's ways. What I would like your opinions of, is WHY ordinances like baptism, and temple ordinances are REQUIRED for every person that has ever lived. This has never made sense to me. I think the LDS teaching and doctrine of baptism for the dead is beautiful and in line with a loving Heavenly Father who offers salvation for all his children. I think it's a wonderful way for us to connect with our ancestors and renew our own covenants.
But .....WHY is the physical act of having a proxy baptism/sealing etc. so necessary to salvation in the Celestial Kingdom?
I appreciate your thoughts on this. : )

I personally know that if I had not been sealed in the temple of our Lord, I could not have gained the knowledge of God and his plan, and many other truths that God has not revealed to the world. I can't say what those truths are, naturally, but I will say that because of my temple sealing I now know where God Himself came from, where and when man came on the scene, I know that there was a first earth and what the cataclysm is that is going to be the cause of the next great tribulation period. I also know that we have to survive the tribulation and that there is going to be a third coming of our Lord.

I suppose it is as Isaiah 5 says, "my people have gone astray because they have no knowledge. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself and gaped open her mouth without measure.

Is is knowledge that saves us in the end. Mormons can not be led astray because of the fact that we have to have a second witness to anything that is taught us or that we learn by our own efforts, and that witness is the Holy Spirit of God. If the Prophet himself tell us anything it doesn't mean we are to take it at face value, it means that we need to know that truth the prophet has revealed in much the same way and Nephi new what his father, another prophet taught, he asked God to enlighten him.

I am thankful for the understanding that the Lord has given me. Even though I don't know all things, I do know to ask God before I believe any teaching from any person even myself.

grampa75


Grampa75, I'm trying to decide whether or not to take you seriously. I mean, you read like Salvadore Dali, the most amazingly funny anti- who ever posted.

Would you care to document your sources? Or did this all just come to you, like falling out of the sky, while you were attending the temple?

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