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 Post subject: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:34 pm 
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Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com







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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Members mine teachings to buttress their positions even as leaders stay silent.

LOL!!!

Well, that's a first.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:39 am 
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"I don't think the intent of the Article of Faith was to make us vigilantes and gatekeepers and create anti-immigrant rhetoric and climate," said Ignacio Garcia, a Brigham Young University history professor.


This nicely sums up the yellow journalistic strawman promulgated by the left wing. Conservatives are not anti-immigration. They are anti-illegal immigration.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 11:51 am 
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However, being "anti-illegal immigration" means -- keeping all people out.

The U.S. immigration policy is not about security -- any fool can sneak in drugs or weapons. It is about racism. Keep those brown folks out. Canadians, OK. We'll let them in. Any one who studies the immigration laws, the prejudice against the Chinese, can see it.

Had we had today's immigration laws applying to your English ancestors 100 years ago, you'd still be working a coal mine in Wales.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:08 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
However, being "anti-illegal immigration" means -- keeping all people out.

The U.S. immigration policy is not about security -- any fool can sneak in drugs or weapons. It is about racism. Keep those brown folks out. Canadians, OK. We'll let them in. Any one who studies the immigration laws, the prejudice against the Chinese, can see it.

Had we had today's immigration laws applying to your English ancestors 100 years ago, you'd still be working a coal mine in Wales.
Gotta disagree with this. I'm in favor of closing the Mexican border and shoring up illegal immigration but it has nothing to do with racism. Canada's border is open because Canadians aren't clamoring to get into America. If they were I'd be in favor of closing that one too.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:11 pm 
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However, being "anti-illegal immigration" means -- keeping all people out.

The U.S. immigration policy is not about security -- any fool can sneak in drugs or weapons. It is about racism. Keep those brown folks out. Canadians, OK. We'll let them in. Any one who studies the immigration laws, the prejudice against the Chinese, can see it.

Had we had today's immigration laws applying to your English ancestors 100 years ago, you'd still be working a coal mine in Wales.

True dat.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:14 pm 
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However, being "anti-illegal immigration" means -- keeping all people out.


How so?

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Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:28 pm 
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I Nephi, having been born of relatively goodly parents,
apart from the fact that we were all illegal immigrants
in the first place.!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
However, being "anti-illegal immigration" means -- keeping all people out.

The U.S. immigration policy is not about security -- any fool can sneak in drugs or weapons. It is about racism. Keep those brown folks out. Canadians, OK. We'll let them in. Any one who studies the immigration laws, the prejudice against the Chinese, can see it.

Had we had today's immigration laws applying to your English ancestors 100 years ago, you'd still be working a coal mine in Wales.


If the only difference between Canada and Mexico were skin color, and the supply of illegal immigrants were similar, you might have a point.

As far as I can tell from Europe, people object to unchecked immigration regardless of the color of the skin of the newcomers.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 12:39 pm 
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Euthyphro wrote:
Gotta disagree with this. I'm in favor of closing the Mexican border and shoring up illegal immigration but it has nothing to do with racism. Canada's border is open because Canadians aren't clamoring to get into America. If they were I'd be in favor of closing that one too.


Having worked extensively with the Church's program along the border, I don't think that your view is compatible with Christian philosophy. The Church doesn't take a position on immigration, it calls as clergymen (bishops and branch presidents) illegals; it provides welfare assistance to illegals.

I don't quibble with your right to have a conservative view, but I've seen the Canadian border security. I've been an eye-witness to extensive drug running across the open border. I've seen hundreds of bales of pot transported in trucks right across the border where I was camping. My family and I were lucky they chose not to do anything about us.

Border policies will not improve drugs or security. They are a waste of money and time. Closing the Mexican border is costly, impractical, and will do nothing to stop the browns from getting in.

The U.S. is better off eliminating aspects of its welfare state -- free medical services, free education, etc. etc. and etc., rather than rousting the browns.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 1:02 pm 
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There are evil people with ulterior motives as well as misinformed on both sides of the issue.

Here's what I see as the reality of the issue:

If the US would just slam the borders shut (particularly in the South), latinos would have one less reason to avoid rising up to take their government from the corrupt ones that run it. This is the real reason why the Mexican government has voiced such strong disapproval to the new Law in Arizona.

There is already a revelution in Mexico and other S. of the border countries. It's called migration to the US. But civil war is inevitable. There is so much the US could do to foster a more peaceful transition to a less oppressive form of government - there and other places.

There is such great wealth and natural resources in the South. Apart from wholesale government corruption there is no reason why Mexico and other countries can not be self sustaining and prosperous.

This is what the core issue is all about.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 2:41 pm 
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The problem, Inconc, is that your seeming reasonable response presupposes somebody else's change. It is like saying: "My marriage will improve if I can just get my wife to stop being so negative."

People have what we offer. We offer a strong and vibrant economy, a reasonably secure lifestyle, a strong military, strong police force, good jobs, good infrastructure, good healthcare. They don't have it. You can't just fix the problem by saying that Mexico ought to become us. It won't happen.

Instead, we must ask ourselves, what right do we have to keep people from immigrating here? Sure, force of law, but is the law legitimate? (Reagan didn't think so, with his large scale amnesty; Bush didn't, with his proposal for same.) Under the free market theorem that free markets lead to economic development and improvement (and there are Nobel prize winners who so hold), if we establish and secure a free market and stable infrastructure, then immigration will improve the net welfare of society as well as the lives of our brothers to the south. Cheap labor will lead to cheaper and more plentiful produce and goods.

Under the protectionist theory, to which most liberals hold, keeping people and customers away from our markets and home soil will improve and protect our economic security. That's rubbish. Unions subscribe to that view, and unions are largely behind the protectionist and anti-immigration thrust.

My ancestors jumped off the boat. Nobody hounded them and deported them back to England and Scotland.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:26 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Euthyphro wrote:
Gotta disagree with this. I'm in favor of closing the Mexican border and shoring up illegal immigration but it has nothing to do with racism. Canada's border is open because Canadians aren't clamoring to get into America. If they were I'd be in favor of closing that one too.


Having worked extensively with the Church's program along the border, I don't think that your view is compatible with Christian philosophy. The Church doesn't take a position on immigration, it calls as clergymen (bishops and branch presidents) illegals; it provides welfare assistance to illegals.

I don't quibble with your right to have a conservative view, but I've seen the Canadian border security. I've been an eye-witness to extensive drug running across the open border. I've seen hundreds of bales of pot transported in trucks right across the border where I was camping. My family and I were lucky they chose not to do anything about us.

Border policies will not improve drugs or security. They are a waste of money and time. Closing the Mexican border is costly, impractical, and will do nothing to stop the browns from getting in.

The U.S. is better off eliminating aspects of its welfare state -- free medical services, free education, etc. etc. and etc., rather than rousting the browns.
I can't figure out how you read into my response where I said anything about drug running and security at the borders. If there were a truly closed border between the United States and Mexico, featuring a tall wall or fence and it were routinely patrolled at all points, it would absolutely curtail illegal immigration, but certainly not stop it entirely.

Leaving aside the costs to close the border and whatever you believe about drug policy, homeland security, or the economic impacts of illegal immigration, we limit immigration from other countries in order to allow those who are new to the states time to adjust and adopt our values before we permit them to call themselves American and participate in the political process. I think most Americans believe our political freedom and economic success is an outgrowth of our culture, history and values. If we dilute that with an unchecked swarm of immigrants who don't share it we ultimately lose it, especially in a representative republic where every vote counts.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 3:44 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Instead, we must ask ourselves, what right do we have to keep people from immigrating here? Sure, force of law, but is the law legitimate?


I think your questions are a non issue and derail any dialog to a solution. It doesn't address the need to regulate flow, filter and even decontaminate.

I have close relatives on both sides of the border. It's a clustered mess for those that have entered illegally over the years. Before 911 it was just plain easier to walk across and steal a fake SS number than to attempt the costly legal and nearly impossible immigration process. After 911, its made many people on both sides outright desperate.

Knowing how it works either way, there are evil, misinformed and just plain stupid people affecting policy on both sides. It's broken.

If the issue were compared to a dam with a leak, there'd be a bunch of engineers that couldn't tell the difference between a properly designed aquaduct and a large crack.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:56 pm 
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All sides are saying essentially the same thing: no one wants the poor.

Door's open for anyone who would be an "asset" to the country, but no one wants the poor, especially not the countries that are the homebase for most of our illegals.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:27 pm 
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Actually, not.

Free market theorists, libertarians, and Christian socialists (a diverse group) believe that opening the borders to the poor will decrease the cost of goods in the United States at the same time as it improves the lives of the immigrant poor. Welfare theorists ("welfare," meaning a particular group of economic theorists as opposed to the pejorative connotation) teach that the cost to society by admitting the poor is less than the general economic benefit of lower cost of goods. Reagan's economists subscribed to this view.

For what its worth. I believe it.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:03 pm 
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Yahoo Bot wrote:
Actually, not.

Free market theorists, libertarians, and Christian socialists (a diverse group) believe that opening the borders to the poor will decrease the cost of goods in the United States at the same time as it improves the lives of the immigrant poor. Welfare theorists ("welfare," meaning a particular group of economic theorists as opposed to the pejorative connotation) teach that the cost to society by admitting the poor is less than the general economic benefit of lower cost of goods. Reagan's economists subscribed to this view.

For what its worth. I believe it.


Perhaps I should rephrase: ordinary people, the ones who pay the taxes, support the welfare state with their labor..In other words, virtually everyone who isn't a free market theorist, libertarian, and/or Christian socialist, or economic theorists of any persuasion... don't want the world's poor coming here. Mainly because ordinary people think people on welfare are parasitic losers who take food out of the mouths of ordinary people's children. When an ordinary white man can't get a low interest federal loan because he's the wrong ethnicity, that causes some angst. Actually, that causes a lot of angst. I have 2 married sons, one with children, who have lived with me for a year, because they don't qualify for low income housing... they're the wrong ethnicity. The angst level for them is fairly high (mine not so much, because I get to have so much fun with my 3 grandchildren).

Angst and fear.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:30 pm 
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harmony wrote:
All sides are saying essentially the same thing: no one wants the poor.

I would disagree as well.

I venture to say that most US citizens don't care where immigrants come from, their financial status or schooling. So long as they ultimately have the potential to effect the society in a positive way this represents much of the US historically.

The ruling party of Mexico On the other hand, doesn't and never cared about any poor. They do not value their significance. The poor are a lower life form - less than human. It doesn't matter to them where they live, Mexico, US, Pluto. Alive or dead.

I'd like to see illegal immigration less of an easy option (for the poor of Mexico) so they might put a greater value upon reforming their own country. I'd also like to see a legitimate immigration program - one that has been lacking for many years here.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 9:24 am 
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Not sure about that enirely. The Mexican government doesn't like Indians -- and most of the illegals are from either southern Mexico or from Central American countries and the mestizo majority isn't too sad that they are out of Mexico.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 1:17 pm 
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First of all, There is NO Such thing as a Mexican race. Being a Mexican is a Nationality, NOT a race. A Person can be white or black, or part white and part black, and also be a Mexican.

White Mexican:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Mexican

Afro-Mexican:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Mexican

Race Now
Part 3: Where Did Mexico's Blacks Go?:

http://www.isteve.com/2002_where_did_me ... cks_go.htm


Those on the far left want amnesty for all illegal immigrants. Those on the far right want deportation for all illegal immigrants. I disagree with both of those Positions. Unfortunately, the comprehensive immigration reform bill died on the Senate floor on June 28, 2007. If the comprehensive immigration reform bill Passed and got signed into law back in 2007, we likely would not be having the Problems we are now having within the State of Arizona.
Here is the U.S. Senate Roll Call on this Bill:

Quote:
U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 110th Congress - 1st Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate

Vote Summary

Question: On the Cloture Motion (Motion to Invoke Cloture on S.1639 )

...

Measure Number: S. 1639

Measure Title: A bill to provide for comprehensive immigration reform and for other purposes.

...

Alphabetical by Senator Name
Akaka (D-HI), Yea
Alexander (R-TN), Nay
Allard (R-CO), Nay
Barrasso (R-WY), Nay
Baucus (D-MT), Nay
Bayh (D-IN), Nay
Bennett (R-UT), Yea
Biden (D-DE), Yea
Bingaman (D-NM), Nay
Bond (R-MO), Nay
Boxer (D-CA), Yea
Brown (D-OH), Nay
Brownback (R-KS), Nay
Bunning (R-KY), Nay
Burr (R-NC), Nay
Byrd (D-WV), Nay
Cantwell (D-WA), Yea
Cardin (D-MD), Yea
Carper (D-DE), Yea
Casey (D-PA), Yea
Chambliss (R-GA), Nay
Clinton (D-NY), Yea
Coburn (R-OK), Nay
Cochran (R-MS), Nay
Coleman (R-MN), Nay
Collins (R-ME), Nay
Conrad (D-ND), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Nay
Cornyn (R-TX), Nay
Craig (R-ID), Yea
Crapo (R-ID), Nay
DeMint (R-SC), Nay
Dodd (D-CT), Yea
Dole (R-NC), Nay
Domenici (R-NM), Nay
Dorgan (D-ND), Nay
Durbin (D-IL), Yea
Ensign (R-NV), Nay
Enzi (R-WY), Nay
Feingold (D-WI), Yea
Feinstein (D-CA), Yea
Graham (R-SC), Yea
Grassley (R-IA), Nay
Gregg (R-NH), Yea
Hagel (R-NE), Yea
Harkin (D-IA), Nay
Hatch (R-UT), Nay
Hutchison (R-TX), Nay
Inhofe (R-OK), Nay
Inouye (D-HI), Yea
Isakson (R-GA), Nay
Johnson (D-SD), Not Voting
Kennedy (D-MA), Yea
Kerry (D-MA), Yea
Klobuchar (D-MN), Yea
Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Kyl (R-AZ), Yea
Landrieu (D-LA), Nay
Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea
Leahy (D-VT), Yea
Levin (D-MI), Yea
Lieberman (ID-CT), Yea
Lincoln (D-AR), Yea
Lott (R-MS), Yea
Lugar (R-IN), Yea
Martinez (R-FL), Yea
McCain (R-AZ), Yea
McCaskill (D-MO), Nay
McConnell (R-KY), Nay
Menendez (D-NJ), Yea
Mikulski (D-MD), Yea
Murkowski (R-AK), Nay
Murray (D-WA), Yea
Nelson (D-FL), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Nay
Obama (D-IL), Yea
Pryor (D-AR), Nay
Reed (D-RI), Yea
Reid (D-NV), Yea
Roberts (R-KS), Nay
Rockefeller (D-WV), Nay
Salazar (D-CO), Yea
Sanders (I-VT), Nay
Schumer (D-NY), Yea
Sessions (R-AL), Nay
Shelby (R-AL), Nay
Smith (R-OR), Nay
Snowe (R-ME), Yea
Specter (R-PA), Yea
Stabenow (D-MI), Nay
Stevens (R-AK), Nay
Sununu (R-NH), Nay
Tester (D-MT), Nay
Thune (R-SD), Nay
Vitter (R-LA), Nay
Voinovich (R-OH), Nay
Warner (R-VA), Nay
Webb (D-VA), Nay
Whitehouse (D-RI), Yea
Wyden (D-OR), Yea


Link: http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/r ... vote=00235


A list of Mormon U.S. Senators who supported this Bill:

1. Robert Bennett (R-UT)
2. Harry Reid (D-NV)


A list of Mormon U.S. Senators who opposed this Bill:

1. Mike Crapo (R-ID)
2. Orrin Hatch (R-UT)
3. Gordon Smith (R-OR) *


* NO longer a U.S. Senator.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormons on opposite sides in immigration fight - SLTrib.com
PostPosted: Sat May 01, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Reminds me of when the Church wanted to ban guns from Church and many members balked at this idea and continued packing heat. The gun lovers knew of the potential chance for hearing things they disagreed with in Priesthood meeting and they wanted to be prepared for that eventuality.

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