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 Post subject: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:57 am 
God

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Suppose one had a sex change, female to male. Would that person, on joining LDS inc, be OK to be ordained to the Priesthood?

If they said nothing about the change I bet it would happen without problem.

But, if they said something... what then?

Would it be different if they waited to say something until after the ordination?(If it happened)

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:13 am 
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The CHI specifically says that individuals who have had sex changes are not to be ordained to the priesthood.

As to the question of what might happen if someone didn't say anything until after ordination, I think this passage from Women and Authority: Re-emerging Mormon Feminism is illuminating:

Maxine Hanks wrote:
Gender-based distinctions may feel unnatural and wrong to many women. Some women feel they possess both masculine and feminine qualities; some have androgynous traits. The arbitrariness of gender-based privilege in exercising priesthood is illustrated in one example from the late 1980s. A former missionary elder underwent medical tests and was discovered to possess the complete reproductive and sexual organs of a female beneath a superficial, non-functional male organ. She had surgery to restore femaleness. Her temple marriage was annulled. It was decided that her priesthood would not be revoked, but she was told she could not exercise it. It was also decided that the priesthood ordinances she performed on her mission, including several baptisms, confirmations, and blessings, would stand as valid ordinances. When she was presumed to be male, she was allowed to exercise priesthood. People accepted her authority, felt the spirit of God, and considered her administration of saving ordinances to be valid. Yet she had the reproductive organs of a woman, not a man.

Her source for this story is a private interview with a person close to the subject. Or in other words, it is an anecdotal account---but a pretty plausible one.

In other words, there is no cosmic rule that says women can't hold the priesthood, that automatically renders priesthood ordinances invalid if it's a woman performing them; it's that they don't. If a woman were ordained because local leaders honestly believed she was a man and her true gender was later discovered, she would be forbidden from further exercising the priesthood and barred from holding any further offices of the priesthood, but she would still technically hold it and any ordinances she had performed would be binding and valid.

What I would really like to know is what the church would do if someone with a true androgyny condition like Olympic Gold Medalist Caster Semenya decided to join the church. I imagine such a person would be treated in accordance with the gender they chose to identify with, and since Caster identifies as female, she would not be ordained even though she very probably has XY chromosomes.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:57 am 
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Considering how rare these problems are, it's quite certain that those who obsess over them are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:33 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Considering how rare these problems are, it's quite certain that those who obsess over them are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

And this post is relevant because . . . ?

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:58 pm 
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Quote:
Considering how rare these problems are, it's quite certain that those who obsess over them are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.

Quote:
And this post is relevant because . . . ?


This thread is not relevant.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:07 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
This thread is not relevant.

Whatever.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:26 pm 
Quote:
This thread is not relevant.


Oh but it is relevant. It is solid proof that the men who bestowed priesthood authority didn't know they were really ordaining a woman! It is solid proof that the holy ghooooost that was with those priesthood brethren during the ordaination was not a very smart ghost.

It shows lack of inspiration, just like Spencer Kimball and his fool companions being duped by phoney documents. They lacked inspiration because they were not really connected with the powers of heaven. I defy President Kimball and declare openly that he was a man lacking in the Holy Spirit. He was a phoney prophet and a deceiver too.

These guys who ordained this female were simply performing another Mormon rite and filling out the standard certificate. Those fools are not connected to the powers of heaven. The Mormon priesthood and its powers are worldly and manmade. The Spirit of God was not leading them.

Paul O


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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 7:42 pm 
God

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This one came up while discussing the Cowboy in Bountiful that married his 'wife'(another man, Felix Urioste) in the Salt Lake Temple. No one caught that anywhere along the line. Apparently no one anywhere said a thing about getting inspiration that something was wrong with the person getting sealed to the husband. Nothing from the Bishop or Stake officers. Nothing from the Temple workers.

The friend is in the Ward in the Bountiful area where it happened. His wife knew the 'woman' and he attended meetings with the husband. No one in the Ward knew or suspected and some of them even went through the Temple with them and attended the Sealing.

As we were talking out came the experience of a mutual friend who was fooled by a San Francisco Hooker who turned out to be a woman partway through sex change therapy. The upper half was all woman and it was only after they got started he found the lower half was now "Male"... So, we wondered what would happen if the Elders tracted out this person after the operations were complete?

Nothing nefarious, just a question based on what we have seen and heard. Kind of like working the Jail and seeing a 'woman' come in and having to put her in the tank and then the cellblock with the men because 'her' drivers license is stamped with "THIS IS A MALE". Brings up all sort of odd possibilities. spaceKadet, if it isn't worthwhile why not stop reading and go heal the sick or make guacamole or something important.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:11 pm 
zzyzx,

It just goes to show that God is not speaking through the Mormon prophet as his followers like to claim. They are false. Their inspiration is manmade given in the counsels of a room where they meet together and decide policy in their own wisdom. They might just as well ordain a woman unaware and sign the certificate themselves. The prophets have no power to divine. They are fakes.

Prove to me that the holy ghoooooost inspired those duped priesthood leaders to ordain a woman! Prove it! What a stupid ghost!

Paul O


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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:09 pm 
God
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Quote:
This thread is not relevant.

Quote:
Whatever.


Yes. This thread is just yet another in a long line of threads designed to bash the Church using baseless reasons.

Quote:
The prophets have no power to divine.


Do they claim the power of divination?

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:51 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Do they claim the power of divination?


divination
noun
The practice of seeking knowledge of the future or the unknown by supernatural means.


I would think this fits squarely into the job description of a prophet, seer, and revelator.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:56 pm 
God
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Quote:
Diviners ascertain their interpretations of how a querent should proceed by reading signs, events, or omens, or through alleged contact with a supernatural agency


I would say it doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:42 pm 
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zzyzx wrote:
This one came up while discussing the Cowboy in Bountiful that married his 'wife'(another man, Felix Urioste) in the Salt Lake Temple. No one caught that anywhere along the line. Apparently no one anywhere said a thing about getting inspiration that something was wrong with the person getting sealed to the husband. Nothing from the Bishop or Stake officers. Nothing from the Temple workers.

The friend is in the Ward in the Bountiful area where it happened. His wife knew the 'woman' and he attended meetings with the husband. No one in the Ward knew or suspected and some of them even went through the Temple with them and attended the Sealing.

As we were talking out came the experience of a mutual friend who was fooled by a San Francisco Hooker who turned out to be a woman partway through sex change therapy. The upper half was all woman and it was only after they got started he found the lower half was now "Male"... So, we wondered what would happen if the Elders tracted out this person after the operations were complete?

Nothing nefarious, just a question based on what we have seen and heard. Kind of like working the Jail and seeing a 'woman' come in and having to put her in the tank and then the cellblock with the men because 'her' drivers license is stamped with "THIS IS A MALE". Brings up all sort of odd possibilities. spaceKadet, if it isn't worthwhile why not stop reading and go heal the sick or make guacamole or something important.
Oh yes, I remember this...

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=3 ... 97,5755515

Quote:
“I feel pretty stupid,” said Bruce Jensen, 39, of Bountiful, Utah. His "wife" was arrested on fraud charges, and police had to break it to him that his wife of 3-1/2 years was a man, Felix Urioste. The two were married after Urioste told Jensen “she” was pregnant with twins by Jensen — she later told him the twins were stillborn.

The bishop of Jensen’s Mormon church confirms that Jensen is “just a little country bumpkin from Wyoming.” Jensen has filed for an annulment of the marriage based on irreconcilable differences and has left Bountiful, but he told a newspaper that when the case is over, he plans to return to Wyoming, “crawl in a hole for a few years and not let anyone within rifle range.” (AP)

...Life Lesson number 2: never marry anyone without seeing them naked first.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 10:44 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Considering how rare these problems are, it's quite certain that those who obsess over them are straining at gnats and swallowing camels.


In a conversation about gender definition that had nothing to do with religion, I heard the argument that the rarity of such conditions makes any special consideration of people with "unique" genders unnecessary or unwarranted. My simple reply was that they should tell that to someone who is in that situation. Hardly a gnat-sized issue for them.

But I think a rebuttal that gets more to the heart of what I think you're trying to say is that often times, when it comes to rules and laws, their boundaries are illuminated by the rare cases, which is why it is indeed relevant to discuss such things.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:13 am 
God
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Quote:
My simple reply was that they should tell that to someone who is in that situation. Hardly a gnat-sized issue for them.


Sure, but you're still swallowing a camel thinking these special cases somehow negate the Church.

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Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:37 am 
Quote:
Do they claim the power of divination?


I'm not referencing occult like practices and strange rites performed by mystics over the ages, which might include Joseph Smith's practice of peeping into stones. However, that's all interesting stuff.

The following is what I had in mind:

transitive verb
1 : to discover by intuition or insight : infer <divine the truth>

intransitive verb
1 : to practice divination : prophesy
2 : to perceive intuitively
synonyms see foresee

This is what President Kimball and his Presidency failed to do while being duped in buying documents for the church. They wasted church funds on phoney lies because the ghooooost they listen to is not a smart ghost.

Inspiration is an oft claimed gift in the LDS world but I feel this claim is simply thrown around a bit too much. Mormon inspiration is far overrated and often false.

Paul O


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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:56 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
My simple reply was that they should tell that to someone who is in that situation. Hardly a gnat-sized issue for them.


Sure, but you're still swallowing a camel thinking these special cases somehow negate the Church.


Actually, the second part of my post was directed at that idea. Also, I think it's funny that you feel you know what I think. I've only mentioned that I think the exceptions to the rule are often enlightening.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:01 am 
midnight rambler

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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
The prophets have no power to divine.


Do they claim the power of divination?

What are they down to now, 180 years in, by way of what they claim? Is it just old men with a fair amount of experience?

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:39 pm 
θεά
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bcspace wrote:
Yes. This thread is just yet another in a long line of threads designed to bash the Church using baseless reasons.

Hogwash. There was been no "bashing" in this thread by myself or zzyzx. There was from Paul Osborne after your non-sequitur-laden entry, but that's pretty par for the course with him---just like lame apologetics, thought-stopping rhetoric and paranoia are par for the course with you.

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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 1:31 pm 
God

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Some guy in England is pregnant with his second child. Oh wait, he has a beard on his face but a child in the womb -- it is actually a female who switched to male. The thing is, you can give a woman tons of male hormone, but then all you will have is a woman with some male secondary characteristics. Same is true of males turning female -- a few things chopped off and some hormones and what you have is a eunoch with breasts.

I suppose in the resurrection all the chopping and injections will not have done any good as everything will be as God planned it in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Sex change, female to Male, Priesthood?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2010 2:47 pm 
midnight rambler

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Fiannan wrote:
I suppose in the resurrection all the chopping and injections will not have done any good as everything will be as God planned it in the first place.
Maybe God needs to see one of those Amazon women movies where they've taken over and just keep a few men around for breeding purposes. Then maybe He'll alter the way He planned it in the first place.

BTW, actually I think Joseph Smith fantasized about being one of those few men.

Edit: If it weren't for knowing there are the lurking apologists, it wouldn't be so tempting to make posts like this one. Hi, Professor Dan and Will!

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